Cliches you can't stand

[Adloquium]

he point, in the context of the story, was simply to quickly make clear that they could not be defeated simply through direct combat.

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I have doubts on the "quickly" part.

Maybe quickly for people within the story, since I've noticed these huge statblocks presented as a mass of words is instantly parsed by whoever sees it, but for readers, I think a single-line summary would be quicker.

 

[foamy]

What you do is, if you're gonna use a statblock to sell someone's OPness, is this:

You establish that the system has a maximum of, say, 10.

Then you say someone exceeds that maximum.


For example:

 

[Morphic Tide]

It works best when you have a decently grounded scale of what the statistics mean, as well as relatively hard bounds of power. Exalted 2e has some of this, with regards to the "soft" Essence 5 ceiling and the similar not-technically-hard cap of 5 on many of the basic stats, and D&D for 4e and 5e also have such "ceilings". Pathfinder 1e cuts the combinitoral explosion from 3.5 enough that it's also fairly confined, though the relative values remain spectacularly borked.

Of course, this relies on actual game design concerns, which most of these hack writers don't have the will to math out properly.

 

[Ustanak]

Eastern martial artists, by which i mean aikido/kung fu/wing chun/insert useless martial art somehow beating western fighters twice their size. Shit is both unrealistic and boring.

 

[The Laurent]

Eastern martial artists, by which i mean aikido/kung fu/wing chun/insert useless martial art somehow beating western fighters twice their size. Shit is both unrealistic and boring.

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...why not? Why is it unrealistic? Eastern Martial Arts being inherently better is kinda overrated, but why exactly are they "useless martial arts" and why is it somehow an affront if they can beat western fighters?

E: Also I double-checked, and calling wing chun useless is just... fucking bizarre.

 

[FortePlus]

I don't know what a "western" fighter is but I'm going to assume it's someone trained in boxing or wrestling or something. Anyways, it's a hot take because size is both an asset and a liability. It's at times exaggerated in media, but things like stamina and mobility are important factors when coming up against different styles.

I guess that it doesn't look "realistic" when most eastern martial arts these days are in more regulated leagues, while stuff like boxing and MMA expose you to more of the brutality and potential for death. In the east anyways. Most people over here don't have experience with say karate outside of fiction and the Olympics.

 

[Ustanak]

...why not? Why is it unrealistic? Eastern Martial Arts being inherently better is kinda overrated, but why exactly are they "useless martial arts" and why is it somehow an affront if they can beat western fighters?

E: Also I double-checked, and calling wing chun useless is just... fucking bizarre.

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they are useless and unrealistic, some chinese MMA practicioner beat the crap out of traditional martial artists a year ago just to show they are frauds. most eastern martial arts lack the kind of physical conditioning and actual fighting experience that mma/wrestling/vale tudo do (most of them do not actually spar at all)

I don't know what a "western" fighter is but I'm going to assume it's someone trained in boxing or wrestling or something. Anyways, it's a hot take because size is both an asset and a liability. It's at times exaggerated in media, but things like stamina and mobility are important factors when coming up against different styles.

I guess that it doesn't look "realistic" when most eastern martial arts these days are in more regulated leagues, while stuff like boxing and MMA expose you to more of the brutality and potential for death. In the east anyways. Most people over here don't have experience with say karate outside of fiction and the Olympics.

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there is a point where size>skill. especially if the larger fighter has years of training and already built up endurance

 

[The Laurent]

they are useless and unrealistic, some chinese MMA practicioner beat the crap out of traditional martial artists a year ago just to show they are frauds. most eastern martial arts lack the kind of physical conditioning and actual fighting experience that mma/wrestling/vale tudo do (most of them do not actually spar at all)

there is a point where size>skill. especially if the larger fighter has years of training and already built up endurance

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That's not... what that shows? It shows that they have different purposes and milleu. The idea that they're frauds is just kinda bizarre.

MMA fighting in fact has different purposes from other types of fighting, because it's part of an ongoing bloodsport where the main goal is to cause another human being a great deal of bodily harm, with nothing else emphasized or taught at all. A lot of the martial arts you're talking about have grown somewhat more formal and focused on a different sort of sport.

(As an example, most prize target shooters (there's probably a specific name for it, but whatever) would not in fact be Doom Guy or whatever if handed a gun and told to fight a modern war, but that doesn't mean they're not in fact good at what they do.)

E: Also, MMA isn't a fighting style, and I know enough about it to know that they borrow moves and styles from all over, including from the supposedly "useless" martial arts only practiced by such notable weaklings as Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan.

 

[aattss]

I'm fine with magic. Usually I start getting annoyed when the author starts defending the demonstrated failures of traditional chinese medicine or certain chinese martial arts by saying the same stuff RL scam artists use.

 

[Ustanak]

That's not... what that shows? It shows that they have different purposes and milleu. The idea that they're frauds is just kinda bizarre.

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both have a purpose of fighting.

MMA fighting in fact has different purposes from other types of fighting, because it's part of an ongoing bloodsport where the main goal is to cause another human being a great deal of bodily harm. A lot of the martial arts you're talking about have grown somewhat more formal and focused on a different sort of sport.

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that just means they are useless/have lost their old use. wing chun for example is super limited. no defense against kicks, no defense against lower abdominal shots, no defense against grappling.

you are supposed to defend against someone or fight someone with that? tough luck

(As an example, most prize target shooters would not in fact be Doom Guy or whatever if handed a gun and told to fight a modern war, but that doesn't mean they're not in fact good at what they do.)

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they are absolutely not good, a large and physically formiddable street brawler could beat the shit out of some aikido master, despite the fact aikido is "ADVERTIZED" as an art that allows you to beat a larger opponent, defend against knives and other weapons.

 

[FortePlus]

some chinese MMA practicioner beat the crap out of traditional martial artists a year ago just to show they are frauds

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This is a terrible argument. Someone practicing a martial art badly doesn't make the martial art fraudulent, and I know exactly the person you're talking about. He went after those people specifically because they were frauds, not because the arts they were teaching were "bad" or inferior. If he thought that then he wouldn't be a practitioner of mixed martial arts.

most eastern martial arts lack the kind of physical conditioning and actual fighting experience that mma/wrestling/vale tudo do (most of them do not actually spar at all)

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Different competition standards doesn't make certain types of martial arts fraudulent.

there is a point where size>skill. especially if the larger fighter has years of training and already built up endurance

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Where are you getting that eastern martial arts practitioners don't have any of this. Because you don't see them with bulging muscles? Have you seen what Olympic boxers look like?

 

[The Laurent]

both have a purpose of fighting.

that just means they are useless/have lost their old use. wing chun for example is super limited. no defense against kicks, no defense against lower abdominal shots, no defense against grappling.

you are supposed to defend against someone or fight someone with that? tough luck

they are absolutely not good, a large and physically formiddable street brawler could beat the shit out of some aikido master, despite the fact aikido is "ADVERTIZED" as an art that allows you to beat a larger opponent, defend against knives and other weapons.

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Not the same sort of fighting? That much is pretty clear. And again, MMA isn't a fucking fighting style. They're very eclectic in what they use (hence MIXED), because it's a fucking blood sport, rather than also being a philosophy, social structure, etc, etc.

Also, the average "street brawler" you would meet has very little to do with MMA at all?[1]

Like, you're talking as if a Wing Chun user personally wronged you, or as if you're trying to prove some sort of point about "the East."

[1] Mixed Martial Artists aren't street brawlers. They're often highly trained, at least at the high end.

 

[FortePlus]

I'm fine with magic. Usually I start getting annoyed when the author starts defending the demonstrated failures of traditional chinese medicine or certain chinese martial arts by saying the same stuff RL scam artists use.

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You can generally assume the only experience these people have with "traditional Chinese medicine" is Tiger Balm (which is good shit btw).

 

[Ustanak]

This is a terrible argument. Someone practicing a martial art badly doesn't make the martial art fraudulent, and I know exactly the person you're talking about. He went after those people specifically because they were frauds, not because the arts they were teaching were "bad" or inferior. If he thought that then he wouldn't be a practitioner of mixed martial arts.

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There are examples of non frauds getting beat up, also they were not frauds for not training wing chun properly, the whole system just sucks

Different competition standards doesn't make certain types of martial arts fraudulent.

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martial arts were created with self defense in mind, at which most of them totally fail at

Where are you getting that eastern martial arts practitioners don't have any of this

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because they do not?

Have you seen what Olympic boxers look like?

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this seems decently ripped. unless you are talking about lightweights

Not the same sort of fighting? That much is pretty clear. And again, MMA isn't a fucking fighting style. They're very eclectic in what they use (hence MIXED), because it's a fucking blood sport, rather than also being a philosophy, social structure, etc, etc.

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mma certainly is a fighting style, its not a martial art tho.
main point of a martial art, focusing on the martial part, is fighting ability which is also the most advertised one. and exactly the part where most fail

 

[Pidl]

What you do is, if you're gonna use a statblock to sell someone's OPness, is this:

You establish that the system has a maximum of, say, 10.

Then you say someone exceeds that maximum.

For example:

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Are those your stats, or did you find an image online?

As for another cliché:
I don't know which I find more annoying.
Someone going 'As you know' to explain something to the audience or the opposite, when the audience isn't supposed to know something, for example the identity of a spy, and so they talk about it in this really roundabout way which makes no sense since their conversation partner is also in the know.

 

[Enmascarado]

that just means they are useless/have lost their old use. wing chun for example is super limited. no defense against kicks, no defense against lower abdominal shots, no defense against grappling.

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...Are you telling me that boxing doesn't have similar weakness? (similar, not the exact same).

Different styles have different strong and weak points.

And your example of MMA fighters... MMA, as in mixed martial arts? As in the fighters that combine all kinds of martial arts (both westerns and easters) to fight?

 

[Alex]

Eastern martial artists, by which i mean aikido/kung fu/wing chun/insert useless martial art somehow beating western fighters twice their size. Shit is both unrealistic and boring.

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I am not sure I would go that far but I must admit I find kung fu stuff where its presented as the pinnacle of fighting above all others. It's one thing to show it as being good it's another to have it effortlessly beat everyone else, even if the user is physically completely unmatched.

I can get a similar reaction when watching anime in which a katana effortlessly cleaves through European plate mail and weaponry.

I'm definitely not saying western stuff is necessarily better, and I get that their will always be dramatic liberties but it can get annoying.

 

[Astrid Fornhoff]

Karate alone was invented explicitly to beat the ever loving shit out of a dude bigger than you in full armor carrying a sword with your bare hands. Come again? And that's just one example from one country.

 

[terma]

Or you could simply add a couple epithets to the name, Volde, Giver Of Plague, Finisher Of The Fates Of Men, gets the point across somewhat and at least it isn't a despair inducing statblock.

 

[Ustanak]

Karate alone was invented explicitly to beat the ever loving shit out of a dude bigger than you in full armor carrying a sword with your bare hands. Come again? And that's just one example from one country.

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and? it doesnt work, its clumsy, lacks footwork, lacks movement and actual fights are joking material. only karate that actually matters is kyokushin which picked up on western techniques and and ways of training

...Are you telling me that boxing doesn't have similar weakness? (similar, not the exact same).

Different styles have different strong and weak points.

And your example of MMA fighters... MMA, as in mixed martial arts? As in the fighters that combine all kinds of martial arts (both westerns and easters) to fight?

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there are almost no eastern fighting styles placed in MMA, besides muai thai

 

[Arawn_Emrys]

and? it doesnt work, its clumsy, lacks footwork, lacks movement and actual fights are joking material. only karate that actually matters is kyokushin which picked up on western techniques and and ways of training
there are almost no eastern fighting styles placed in MMA, besides muai thai

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How about you start your own thread to bitch about real world Eastern martial arts rather that shitting up a thread about fiction with it.

 

[Vindictus]

We have a martial arts thread already, so he can probably go there? It's a bit dead, though.

 

[Night]

(As an example, most prize target shooters (there's probably a specific name for it, but whatever) would not in fact be Doom Guy or whatever if handed a gun and told to fight a modern war, but that doesn't mean they're not in fact good at what they do.)

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Well, depends on what kind of competition shooting you do. IPSC and so on began as an attempt to make shooting training more realistic but have veered off; yet they're still probably better training for a combat situation than plinking at things or standard marksmanship competition, but worse than Fairbarn-style combat shooting competition or Nordic-style competition biathlon/Stang shooting.

Comparisons can be drawn between various styles of teaching particular martial arts.

there are almost no eastern fighting styles placed in MMA, besides muai thai

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Look we get it, you can't spot the influences on various locks from judo for example. They're in there. Almost all Western systems developed after the 1950s are deeply incestuous with various Eastern ones having looted them for various things, and those are often incestuous with each other. The bits people think are most important for their system are almost never original because somebody got there first.

 

[Vindictus]

Well, depends on what kind of competition shooting you do.

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I mean, the most 'realistic' competition shooting structure I can imagine would... basically be competitive airsoft? Or something of that sort? Which, AFAIK, isn't something where you've got a 'professional' tier to aspire to at all, so it doesn't really fit very well.

 

[Night]

I mean, the most 'realistic' competition shooting structure I can imagine would... basically be competitive airsoft? Or something of that sort? Which, AFAIK, isn't something where you've got a 'professional' tier to aspire to at all, so it doesn't really fit very well.

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Depends on how you look at it. The thing is, most MMA or martial arts things are a lot more tightly defined and there's a ref standing right there, which makes for a poor comparison to anything like team competitive airsoft or paintball. For most things you'd do on a battlefield, honestly, we're back to Nordic style shooting, because it's stamina, from the running/skiing part, and speed/accuracy at relevant combat ranges, whereas airsoft simply isn't. IPSC-style matches with their focus on speed and accuracy are actually pretty good training in the sense that they teach you basics you need to know even if wrapped in an unrealistic framework. Fairbarn style is mostly pistol but is delibrately designed to test your ability to draw, aim, fire, and reload rapidly while throwing in various obstacles and rules like partially concealed targets, different target groupings, allowed a set number of rounds at each target, having to move in the middle of your set (and possibly carry a weight with you), starting holding your weapon or having to hold a dummy weapon on a second target, etc. It's probably the closet thing to combat that's still done in a tightly defined framework like what you'd see with an MMA or other martial arts championship.

Of course, there's actual combat shooting competition with essentially dummy killhouse setups like are used to train military and paramilitary groups, but that gets a lot squishier and again, the ranges are usually quite short and not good training except for breaching and clearing buildings.