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Cliches you can't stand

terma said:
I'm going to add the whole "Rommel was good at his job and noble." to this one, in the future, it should have had more time to finally die and rot. (Okay, he was a good colonel but his abilities fell below par above that. As for being noble, that was just his excuse. Amazing how much damage early biographies can cause. He was a rabid dog.)
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I've seen people excuse Erich "wiping out and enslaving the population of eastern europe is literally our destiny" von Manstein. Never mind the decades of excuseology literally concocted by former Nazis for why they lost but it totally wasn't their fault. People really seem to want to give generals of morally horrific armies a whitewashing whenever they're even halfway competent. It's like people have a hard time accepting that someone who is competent can be evil.

The OKW was strategically speaking, not very good thanks to their completely narrow minded focus on destroying the enemy army to the exclusion of all else. They had no appreciation for the political, economic, and very often even the logistical aspects of warfare and contrary to their mythmaking, Hitler was the main person forcing them to abide by any sort of strategic gameplan more complicated than "find the enemy army and smash it."

When the German army was so left to its own devices as to be able to establish an outright stratocracy in the first world war, their master plan to defeat the Entente was "if we throw a bunch of people at the Entente and get to Paris we'll win lol". Which ended up resulting in a lot of tactical gains from the shock of their stormtrooper tactics, hurricane bombardment, and eastern front reinforcements, but strategically left the Kaiserreich with a lot of divisions stretched too thin in poorly fortified territory of no real value and set them up to get curbstomped in the hundred days.

A lot of this is down to Prussian military thought basically rendering war down into a form of engineering. The army that birthed Clausewitz would have almost certainly flunked his class with its lack of concern for the aspects of warfare beyond just killing the enemy faster than they can kill you and devising the optimal plans and tactics to do so as rapidly as possible like a grim game of numbers. In the first world war, the civilian government simply lacked the strength to force the armed forces to consider the ever important political and resource aspects of war. In the second world war the civilian government had very clear goals but they were also insane goals meant to serve as step one of Hitler's dream of German world conquest by conquering and "clearing out" eastern Europe to secure its resources and enslave its people and build up the resources he'd need for an invasion of America and then Asia to destroy Judaism and "the Asiatic mongrel hordes" after wiping out the Slavic vanguard of the "Asiatic people, Communism, and Judaism." So that was never going to become a reality.
 
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I'd like to point out that the Entente had a bunch of tactical equivalents to the German Empire's. It's just that "trench raid" sounds less cool than "stormtrooper" and therefore gets left with the wayside, but it is purely out of pedantry, I fully agree with you.
 
Honestly, Nazi high command was universally pretty shit; the random grunts on the field sent to die were probably alright (hell the U-boat commanders were probably less awful on average than the rest of their Nazi compatriots), and the citizens were still held up at gunpoint and treated horribly, but they don't excuse the people who ran the gas chambers, ruined their own cities to harass minorities/create a false threat, oppressed women etc.

Fascism is shit. In other news, water is wet, shit is shitty, and RWBY is considered to not be very good.
 
LSkullD said:
Honestly, Nazi high command was universally pretty shit; the random grunts on the field sent to die were probably alright (hell the U-boat commanders were probably less awful on average than the rest of their Nazi compatriots), and the citizens were still held up at gunpoint and treated horribly, but they don't excuse the people who ran the gas chambers, ruined their own cities to harass minorities/create a false threat, oppressed women etc.

Fascism is shit. In other news, water is wet, shit is shitty, and RWBY is considered to not be very good.
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Yeah, the average conscript given a rifle and an armband to sew around a coat's sleeve gets a lot more sympathy from me that the commanders.

Also, while the submarines were less politicised, that didn't mean they weren't, corrupt and twisted education fucked up a lot of people. There's a hilarious report from the British about a captured sub crew that goes something like: "The submarine's engineer described himself as a 'believer in germany' and it was with a growing apprehension that we realised he did not understand the principles that made his craft function."
 
Nazi ideology was a cocktail of all the worst ideas to float around Germany taken to their final conclusion. Historical anti-semitism. A history of Germanic eastwards expansion at the expense of native balto-slavs as old as the Livonian Order's campaigns of terror in what was once slavic Prussia, and arguably massacre filled eastward expansion is as old as Charlemagne's butchery in Saxony. Hysterical anti-leftism fostered by a long history of a very deeply reactionary army. Pan-German ideals that had floated around for quite a while but had intensified in the 20th century. Colonial excuseology and the racism that accompanied it as well as social darwinistic ideals that had become popular to justify the status quo by saying the poor/disabled/minorities deserved to live in squalor by reason of biological inferiority as well as the popularity of eugenics that accompanied it. A long history of militarism from a staunchly reactionary military that had no faith in anything to the left of the Kaiserreich.

With all of these prior conditions in mind, the rise of Nazism in Germany once the depression produced a crisis of confidence in the government makes perfect sense.
 
Mental Omega said:
People really seem to want to give generals of morally horrific armies a whitewashing whenever they're even halfway competent. It's like people have a hard time accepting that someone who is competent can be evil.
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See also, the American Civil War. Though that one was assisted by a deliberate attempt at social engineering by the sociopolitical leaders of the South post-war and during and following Reconstruction.
 
DezoPenguin said:
See also, the American Civil War. Though that one was assisted by a deliberate attempt at social engineering by the sociopolitical leaders of the South post-war and during and following Reconstruction.
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With the Germans, this was aided by NATO being willing to buy into any narrative that would demonize the eastern bloc even if it was straight from the mouth of their wartime enemies. So you had a bunch of people with a vested interest in saying they did nothing wrong informing the NATO member states about what the war in the east was like and whose fault it was that Germany lost as well as their reasoning for genocidal world domination. In the 80s, Glantz and other young American officers decided that getting their narrative from people who had lost and wanted to excuse away why they lost was a terrible idea if they wanted to actually win the third world war and so started to discard post-war ex-Wehrmacht testimonies and instead looked at how the USSR won the war rather than the excuses for why Germany lost.

Unfortunately this effort has penetrated very little into pop-historical circles.
 
And people wonder why I generally hate the idea of 'but actually good guys!' Imperials in the upper ranks of the Galactic Empire.
 
Arawn_Emrys said:
Weren't there actually a couple who defected partway through the conflict? Crix Madine for one?
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That's kind of the point. In order for a sympathetic Imperial character to stay sympathetic, they pretty much either have to defect or meet a tragic end. There are definitely compelling stories that can be told about someone who's basically a cog in the Imperial war machine, as long as they engage with the institutional oppression and violence of the Empire. For example, you could write about a young, idealistic officer who starts out working for the Empire for lack of alternatives to get by. They might be largely unaware of its atrocities thanks to Imperial propaganda, but slowly become disillusioned as they're exposed to more and more of the Empire's excesses, ultimately getting ground up and spat out by the system. That's not just a hypothetical either, that's Han Solo's backstory.

However, anyone who keeps propping up a fascist, genocidal, slaving regime even after they've seen what it does is going to rapidly lose whatever sympathy they've built. That's kind of a major theme in Star Wars; even if you've done evil, it's never too late to change, but that's because evil is a choice. Anyone who has had their eyes opened to the atrocities of the Empire but continues to support it is knowingly participating in its evil. This doesn't mean that Imperials can't be complex or even tragic people, but there's a very important difference between humanizing someone and exculpating them, and I find that most sympathetic Imperial narratives forget that.
 
On the other hand you don't really need to be sympathetic to be a compelling character that the audience can end up cheering on. People are allowed like villains and not every villain needs to be a complete monster or an idiot or both. You could probably have a decent cast of Imperials to shed light on what's going on with the other side or explain how the Empire doesn't just implode and write them as doing evil things without considering themselves evil.

Rationalisations, ignorance, a different set of ideals from the norm, personal situation, fear of the consequences of defecting and yes just being outright evil can be an interesting mix of motivations and excuses that could be used in a lot of different ways with different characters.

I think a lot of Star Wars villains are just the wrong mix of evil and stupid to be genuine threats or interesting enough to carry their own sub plots. That's not to say most Imperials should be competent or allegedly decent people, its still the evil empire but there are plenty of totalitarian or oppressive states in our history which got millions of people to do what they want and live with that just fine.

You can have the bad guys be bad and still have admirable qualities and you can ask questions about how responsible an individual really is for what their 'side' is doing. And the good guys don't have to be pure white either and yet it can still be clearly a good thing for them to win.
 
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The Englanderish said:
Hypercool edgebrigade Vergerite/Kreian inspired sue 'grey' Jedi wangst teens. Even worse if they style themselves after gritty bounty hunters or serial killers.
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Isn't Kreia's whole point as a character that while her questions are valid, you can always answer them by saying "Have you tried not being a manipulative ass just once in your life?"

... GAMES WORKSHOP!!! YOU LAZY FUCKS! :mad:
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Don't repeat yourself.


I'm going to go back on my Rommel post and just make a blanket statement on revisionism as a whole. Rommel wasn't good or noble, there was no such thing as a Clean Wehrmacht. (Hello John Ringo! Hi Tom Kratman! I really regret buying your book to pass the time on that train.) Soviet tactics weren't The Classical Human Wave Of Subhumans. If your 31st century noble motivates his men by telling them that they are brave and noble men like General Lee's soldiers who were fighting for Order and Freedom, expect me to see him differently than you do. The Japanese Empire was one of the most horrific oppressors of all time, hello Kancolle, please stop peddling that little "white sail" thing, Yudachi's skipper just tried to pull off a false white flag, confused the Americans into not shooting him and then got his ship erased from existence by suitably angry USN sailors. Also, Arashi did a burial at sea by strapping a captured pilot to a depth charge and plopping him in the drink, funny how that doesn't come up, but mostly I'm angry that weaboos are repeating that Yudachi's white sail nonsense.

Look, it's not hard, I can cry with the Imperial Japanese sailors, I've done it. Tameichi Hara's Japanese Destroyer Captain was pretty damn poignant. Jonathan Parshall and Anthony Tully wrote Shattered Sword which is a history book about doctrine, war material, people and tragedy and it made the IJN a billion times more human that Kancolle's nationalist and revisionist wankfest.

Well, I've got a lot less steam right now.

E: Oh, almost forgot. Torture doesn't work. It's been documented that it doesn't work for centuries, in particular by the inquisition.
 
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bigblack said:
....Vergerite?
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Vergere is a former Jedi Master who shows up in the Vong storyline and punts Jacen Solo onto the first stages of his Dark Side path. Personal philosophy includes such highlights as there being no problem with doing messed up shit to achieve your ends as long as your ends and intent are good. Very 'Gray' in the above sense. She's very well-written, but the mistake made with her is unironically not having her be a villain.

Predictably she got retconned into actually being a Sith later down the line.
 
When it comes to grey jedi I don't think of Kreia who not many people even in game had much doubt she was a sith, I think more of Jolee Bindo from KOTR 1.

When it comes to Kreia there wasn't much doubt that she's evil or even a sith even before she tells or at least I would hope not as it wasn't exactly something she was hiding though she did seem to have something about thinking about ones actions and not mindlessly following.

As far as star wars villains go she's a improvement over Malek but she's no Palatine or Thrawn though certainly more interesting than Darth Nihilus while I was never quite sure what to make of Darth Sion whom the only way to defeat him is literally talking him to death.
 
The Englanderish said:
Vergere is a former Jedi Master who shows up in the Vong storyline and punts Jacen Solo onto his Dark Side path. Personal philosophy include such highlights as there being no problem with doing messed up shit to achieve your ends as long as your ends and intent are good. Very 'Gray' in the above sense. She's very well-written, but the mistake made with her is unironically not having her be a villain.

Predictably she got retconned into actually being a Sith later down the line.
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Technically she wasn't fully retconned. Lumiya claimed she was full Rule of Two Sith, which is what Vergere said when she had Lumiya help return her to the Vong, but the One Sith say she was full One Sith, which is what she told the One Sith when she hung with them for a while.


Given she saved Mara, and died saving the galaxy, I'm pretty sure she lied to both Lumiya and Krayt. And Jacen didn't fall thanks to her teachings (thank FotJ for at least that), he fell on purpose to screw up the future enough that Kraft would have to wait another 100 years to be able to take over.
 
Alane1 said:
When it comes to grey jedi I don't think of Kreia who not many people even in game had much doubt she was a sith, I think more of Jolee Bindo from KOTR 1.

When it comes to Kreia there wasn't much doubt that she's evil or even a sith even before she tells or at least I would hope not as it wasn't exactly something she was hiding though she did seem to have something about thinking about ones actions and not mindlessly following.

As far as star wars villains go she's a improvement over Malek but she's no Palatine or Thrawn though certainly more interesting than Darth Nihilus while I was never quite sure what to make of Darth Sion whom the only way to defeat him is literally talking him to death.
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This comes from there basically being two types of Grey Jedi in Star Wars:

Type 1: The supposed neutral alignment that invarialy involves acting like a selfish sociopath.

Type 2: A Jedi who does not follow the directives of the council.

Jolee's the latter. He masquerades as type 1, but when pushed to actually plant his flag, he quickly drops pretences and it becomes very apparent that he's type 2.

Kreia's a very well-written villain for a whole lot of reasons, but mostly because there's a lot of philosophical depth going on under the hood. Much more so than Thrawn, who has trouble not being painted as Imperial apologia or an outright sue (though he has his good entries). Palpatine's very good at his archetypal brand of plotting cackling evil with extensive themes. Kreia, Sion and Nihilus though? They've all got all sorts of depth going on, which is what makes them extremely unique and interesting.

The Imperator said:
And Jacen didn't fall thanks to her teachings (thank FotJ for at least that), he fell on purpose to screw up the future enough that Kraft would have to wait another 100 years to be able to take over.
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Yeah, FOTJ's baaad because of shit like this. It doesn't really approach LOTF or Karen Traviss levels of bad, but it's not good at all.
 
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The Englanderish said:
This comes from there basically being two types of Grey Jedi in Star Wars:

Type 1: The supposed neutral alignment that invarialy involves acting like a selfish sociopath.

Type 2: A Jedi who does not follow the directives of the council.

Jolee's the latter. He masquerades as type 1, but when pushed to actually plant his flag, he quickly drops pretences and it becomes very apparent that he's type 2.

Kreia's a very well-written villain for a whole lot of reasons, but mostly because there's a lot of philosophical depth going on under the hood. Much more so than Thrawn, who has trouble not being painted as Imperial apologia or an outright sue (though he has his good entries). Palpatine's very good at his archetypal brand of plotting cackling evil with extensive themes. Kreia, Sion and Nihilus tough? They've all got all sorts of depth going on, which is what makes them extremely unique and interesting.


Yeah, FOTJ's baaad because of shit like this. It doesn't really approach LOTF or Karen Traviss levels of bad, but it's not good at all.
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I really didn't think the Jacen stuff was what made it bad. It tried to salvage the character assassination from LotF which I was happy about. Sure, it wasn't good overall, but, to me at least, it felt like it was trying to fix mistakes.
 
I don't have that much experience with Star Wars fics, but from what I've read, I'd say that my tolerance line is at bashing. Like, you shouldn't create a Grey force user to show that Dumbledore's cousin Yoda is no better than Palpatine, nor should you write a Sith for the purpose of showing that the Dark side is just as safe as the Light side as long as long as you mention that you're trying to control the Dark side instead of letting the Dark side control you.
 
The Imperator said:
I really didn't think the Jacen stuff was what made it bad. It tried to salvage the character assassination from LotF which I was happy about. Sure, it wasn't good overall, but, to me at least, it felt like it was trying to fix mistakes.
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Eeeeeh when you go "oh he totally had to turn darkside to save the galaxy" unironically, you've gone really wrong.
 
aattss said:
I don't have that much experience with Star Wars fics, but from what I've read, I'd say that my tolerance line is at bashing. Like, you shouldn't create a Grey force user to show that Dumbledore's cousin Yoda is no better than Palpatine, nor should you write a Sith for the purpose of showing that the Dark side is just as safe as the Light side as long as long as you mention that you're trying to control the Dark side instead of letting the Dark side control you.
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You know what controlling the Dark Side is called?

Staying on the Light Side. Or being Mace Windu, either works.

The Dark Side is, more or less, a failure state for the Jedi. Going close to it is obviously not encouraged, but Jedi basically have to- the situations they walk into require it. Giving into the Dark Side is the moment you've basically started doing bad shit, as opposed to 'using dangerous powers for a good cause'.
 
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