Because if you don't, you'll be just like him! Clearly "not forgiving someone" means "murdering them after prolonged torture".
Cliches you can't stand
- Thread starter Mithras
- Start date
- Location
- Singapore
I find the opposite even more annoying.
"Oh, you have lied to me, even though if you didn't, I would have surely been in danger? Get out of my sight, I never want to see you again."
Highly dependent on the lie. I find a lot of the time this trope is used the person really would be better off with the truth.
White Wraith
MUDA MUDA MUDA
Hello there, typical CW show
White Wraith
MUDA MUDA MUDA
Voikirium
SV's Estalia Guy
- Location
- Ruritania Illinois
- Pronouns
- He/Him
You know what would be nice?
If more nerdy authors could just acknowledge, on even the most basic level, the value of non-nerd virtues and pass-times.
If I have to read, one more time, some oh-so-smart dipstick talk about how he's so much more intelligent and virtous than the 'jocks', or party-goers, or [insert anything not academia basically] I'm gonna lose my mind. Because apparently the fact they'd like more stimulation than turning pages in a book on their off time is just...terrible.
If more nerdy authors could just acknowledge, on even the most basic level, the value of non-nerd virtues and pass-times.
If I have to read, one more time, some oh-so-smart dipstick talk about how he's so much more intelligent and virtous than the 'jocks', or party-goers, or [insert anything not academia basically] I'm gonna lose my mind. Because apparently the fact they'd like more stimulation than turning pages in a book on their off time is just...terrible.
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Private Lee O'Malley
Easygoing Egoist
- Location
- Gensokyo
no shut up jock go back to your barbells. :^)
I mean, in Mob Psycho 100 the Body Improvement Club is portrayed positively so does that count? But I get ye point, tho I see it more in fanfiction than anything. As a man who lifts weights and is a huge nerd, I can confirm the two are not mutually exclusive. There are a lot of nerds wearing their animu shirts and keychains while lifting 300kg so like nerds ain't an exclusive class.
Triggerhappy
Stick with Trigger and You'll Make it Through
- Location
- SoCal
I kind of think this is more a fanfiction thing and specifically more of a 'rational fiction' thing.
Although I think it seeps into a lot of authors writing because, as it turns out, writing is an intensely intellectual exercise that tends to be pursued by people who are themselves very intellectually inclined and nerdy. Writers write what they know.
Not all of them mind you, there are authors who don't fit the mold, and a lot of authors have plenty of other hobbies. Stephen King is apparently an enormous baseball fan for instance. But it's enough to call it a trend.
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Private Lee O'Malley
Easygoing Egoist
- Location
- Gensokyo
It's almost as if people are defined by who they are rather than what they do. *WISDOM*
Triggerhappy
Stick with Trigger and You'll Make it Through
- Location
- SoCal
It's almost as if people are defined by who they are rather than what they do. *WISDOM*
But what you do influences who you are.
Private Lee O'Malley
Easygoing Egoist
- Location
- Gensokyo
vicky_molokh
Posthuman spidery thingy.
- Location
- Kyïv, Ukraine
I think there's a matter of term drift. Consider the usage of nerd that was very much about what one isn't than what one is: as a bashing label for people who couldn't succeed in physical and social stuff, and thus pursued (pursuited?) the third remaining pillar (mental and incidentally often fiddly-finicky-detail-oriented ones). With the latter people defanging the bashing label and turning it into just a label.
Contrast that to the less precise, more broad usage by people who didn't go through this exclusionary selection. (Also recall the Geeks vs. Nerds divisions, which may or may not be based on historical usage and etymology - I honestly don't know. Like that diagram that paints very different personalities of geeks and nerds and claims that neither is better, but subtly depicts one of the two as better.)
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A person refusing the help of others because they feel they have to be independent or that they shouldn't take advantage of others.
It's annoying enough when the only person it hinders is themselves, but it gets worse when there are others depending on that person (e.g. a single mother refusing to let anyone else pay for food.)
It's annoying enough when the only person it hinders is themselves, but it gets worse when there are others depending on that person (e.g. a single mother refusing to let anyone else pay for food.)
Depending on how it's written, that's far less problematic than you think.
There are people out there who are pressured by abusive family members to accept money and help from because of "Think of your children!", which was then later used by them to guilt trip them into accepting their frankly awful behaviour and abuse. Cutting themselves off from these people even when it would have helped them financially ended up being better and more healthy for them and their family in the long run, since it allowed them to shut out abusers and toxic people from their own families.
There's pride, of couse, but there's also the meaningful choice of cutting yourself off from people who have hurt you in the past and will continue to do so, even when they offer to help you out of "love" or when it might give you an advantage. And accepting money and help from these people, for whatever reason, can actually open someone up to great abuse and damage in the long run.
If we're talkig about clichés in this vein, however, I do sincerely dislike how nobody ever talks about things like characters choosing to apply and use unemployment benefits or government programs to get help, and if they do, generally the reaction of the characters is one of contempt or disgust towards those that choose to do it or characters rejecting it out of hand because they're handouts or something along those lines.
I was talking about situations where the help would have come with no strings attached. In the situation you described, of course she shouldn't accept the 'help'.
No offense, but I don't think your statement is actually quite that clear? About the "no strings attached" thing?
I mean, what I read from this is that it's a cliché when characters reject help because they want to be independent, and my counterargument was that yes, sometimes it's actually a better decision in fiction and IRL if people decide to not dependent on help that may end up toxic and poisonous. It wasn't clear to me that you were excluding situations where the help came with strings attached.
But we're more or less agreeing on the most important points anyway, so I don't think there's a need to nitpick each other.
I do agree with your general point, mind -- in fiction, people often reject help from others out of mere pride alone and hurt themselves and others, and it feels trite and forced. Admittedly, though, I've seen that often happen IRL, so I'm not sure whether I really want to criticise writers for using it... I guess it all comes down to how believeable it is in terms of characterisation.
Also to whether they are called out on this behaviour/stop behaving like that eventually.
Just because it happens IRL doesn't mean it's not a cliché I can't stand.
There's no 'in fiction' qualifier in the thread title, after all.
"They need to learn how to do this for themselves" when training is something that often bugs me in execution.
Because, yes, someone does need to eventually learn how to figure out and innovate on their own, but that assumes they already have familiarity with how to figure it out which is often not established, and a lot of the time the specific examples / training techniques really don't benefit at all from having them do it themselves. Handholding too long is bad, but training wheels at the start leads to better training, and a lot of martial arts etc. stuff has taken 'training where the user only figures out the purpose in retrospect' to the extreme to the point a lot are pretty poor teachers in demonstrated technique.
Because, yes, someone does need to eventually learn how to figure out and innovate on their own, but that assumes they already have familiarity with how to figure it out which is often not established, and a lot of the time the specific examples / training techniques really don't benefit at all from having them do it themselves. Handholding too long is bad, but training wheels at the start leads to better training, and a lot of martial arts etc. stuff has taken 'training where the user only figures out the purpose in retrospect' to the extreme to the point a lot are pretty poor teachers in demonstrated technique.
Vyslanté
The self is a prison
- Location
- European Union
Without talking about whether I can or cannot be a good thing, it's just... a thing that happens in real life.
It does annoy me (even it's a bit hypocrite because I do tend to suffer from that "no I don't need help", though it's not really from pride) — even more in fiction that in actual people, even.
In Bleach, Kaien Shiba died when his captain (i.e. an 'I Win' button vs hollows) was within combat range because "he had to do it himself," because the opponent killed his wife, even after the hollow disarmed him, allowing it to possess him and attack another shinigami , who luckily survived but it was no given.
You'd think that was a moral about stepping in, but nope.
You'd think that was a moral about stepping in, but nope.
Daniel Estacado
ZA WARUDO
Yes and killing the shades will still doom humanity(remember: the Replicants were never supposed to become people until they merged with the Shades, them becoming people on their own was never supposed to happen) due to the fact that when a Shade starts to break down(or gets killed) the corresponding Replicant will suffer from Black Scrawl before dying.
- Location
- Malaysia
That was ancient swordsman's pride talking. Then Kaien got subsumed by the Hollow, and then killed by Rukia. Now where's your pride, old man?
That part really pissed me off when I read it years ago, half because culture dissonance half because that was fucking stupid considering leaving Kaien to fight alone a Hollow known to have eaten multiple shinigami is I'm absolutely sure a breach of mission protocol for highly dangerous Hollow extermination.
Of course, any interpretation of Ukitake's feelings on that matter is pretty much head-canon territory because he never brought those up again, not even post-Soul Society when Rukia went and apologized to the Shiba. For a supposedly amicable and 'father to his men' character that was really an incongruous moment because pretty sure Rukia did not need to go and personally apologized if Ukitake had went down and explained the situation to Kaien's family, then the whole Ganju's grudge towards Rukia during the SS arc won't be present at all. For a by the seat of your pants writing, that was one big ass plot hole he forgot to tie up properly, or just to show Ukitake being a product of a bygone era, and this part was Yamamoto's teaching showing through.