That was actually something that had been said to us by a high-school teacher (the work in question being Bel-ami, a fairly enjoyable book as far as classics go)


I'm not saying that plenty of works don't have a deeper meaning, nor indeed that having one is being pretentious; I'm just... uninterested by it.

And I guess I get it? I mean, I admit I don't entirely...get it get it, admittedly.

But I'm sure that's what the guy who really loves, say, baseball stats says when someone yawns, or the science guy when their 'amazing new discovery they read about' is met with yawns and "Sure, sure, that's nice, but uninteresting", says as well, so.

What can you do.
 
But I'm sure that's what the guy who really loves, say, baseball stats says when someone yawns, or the science guy when their 'amazing new discovery they read about' is met with yawns and "Sure, sure, that's nice, but uninteresting", says as well, so.
That's... probably a good comparison, yeah.

(My non-interest, I think, comes because I read fiction (and science-fiction especially) mainly for escapism. So, sure, book X might be a clever criticism of our society thinly hidden behind its science-fictional worldbuilding, but I won't really pay attention to that. I read to 'dream' (for a lack of a better word), not to reflect on our world — that also means that more often than not, since I'm not searching for it and probably unconsciously avoiding it, the deeper meaning and comments about humanity or whatever pass way over my head)
 
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Dude, my local newspaper is considered absolutely respectable. The stuff written there is criticism of literature, and it is considered respectable, making it respectable literary criticism. Its the equivalent to video games journalists like RPS or GiantBomb -- or to find a better example when looking at a strictly edited video game journalism platform, it's more like IGN. Their bread and butter are current releases as well, not the classics. And those are "mainstream" criticism!

You're complaining about academic literary criticism, and you're complaining that their authors don't write like journalists when they're targeting an audience of fellow academics and interested laymen, and thus declaring that all literary critics are "snobs".

If you don't see how that perspective is limited and restricted, I'm not sure how to help you.
Respectable for a newspaper? Sure. But I doubt it's respectable enough to be allowed to enter textbooks and become the sort of criticism on which millions of pupils of a new generation will learn what litcrit of lasting literature is like.
And I am not even talking about critics who write criticism for academics (at least primarily), not even for university students. I'm talking about those who write for regular folks entering the world of literature for the first time.

Also, @Vyslanté is spot on about the difference between 'book reviews' (written on the reader's terms - if the readers don't get it, they won't buy the newspaper) and 'literary criticism' (written on the critics' terms - if the readers don't get it, they failed to learn the basics of literature).
 
I am basing my opinion on lit criticism I've encountered.
I went back to it to take a looks, and my newspaper's lit crit section talked about, reviewed, and recommended... <...> I mean, quite honestly, when I look back at those reviews themselves, I don't see any sort of "toxic expectations" that "true art is incomprehensible/irrational/unspeakable/unknowable" for these critics.
Well there's your problem.
 
See, the thing is that many people first get the taste of literary criticism from textbooks and whatever manuals their teachers are using, and they form their first impression based on the literary criticism that's used to teach kids.

And trust me, there's nothing more horrifying that sixth-graders listening to and reading about symbolism they don't understand, unable to ask for a proper explanation without submitting themselves to an incomprehensible jargon-filled tirade, for forty minutes straight.
 
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Respectable for a newspaper? Sure. But I doubt it's respectable enough to be allowed to enter textbooks and become the sort of criticism on which millions of pupils of a new generation will learn what litcrit of lasting literature is like.
Neither will Rock, Paper, Shotgun or GiantBomb, which you said you wanted literary critics to emulate. Or even Jim Sterling, as much as I like him.

"And on that fateful day, Jim Sterling gave BotW an 7.5 out of 10, causing the great academic Zelda Historikerstreit of 2017 and a re-evalution of the previously dominant opinion nowadays called 'Le Fanboyisme Séga-Nintendo'."

I mean, come on. :rofl:
Also, @Vyslanté is spot on about the difference between 'book reviews' (written on the reader's terms - if the readers don't get it, they won't buy the newspaper) and 'literary criticism' (written on the critics' terms - if the readers don't get it, they failed to learn the basics of literature).
No, you originally failed and have continued to fail to understand what "literary criticism" means, what the difference between literary criticism in an academic context and literary criticism in a journalistic context is, and the different audiences they write for. Just because they're "book reviews" doesn't stop them being criticism of literature!

And academic literary criticism is influential because it's written for academics and students looking to enter academic and journalistic fields, thus influencing society as these people enter the workforce, and journalistic literary critics are influential because they directly address society through mass media. They are just influential in different ways, and some of them even mix up the two approaches -- but they nonetheless write very differently depending on which audience they address.

You're basically complaining that academic literary criticism is not catering to your tastes, but that's not because of them being "snobby". Nah, you're quite simply not their target audience. "Mainstream" journalistic literary criticism is doing exactly what you want, and now you've suddenly declared that they're "not literary criticism" -- even though you explicitly said you wanted them to write like journalists.

And there definitely have been journalist literary critics who ended up being influential on societal view -- Marcel Reich-Ranicki immediately comes to mind when thinking of Germany, for example.

As @Melancholeric so pithily said, "Well, there's your problem."



Make up your mind, dude.
 
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Moving aside from the current topic because I have nothing to add to it and don't want us to derail this thread to argue over it for a few pages, a cliche that annoys the shit out of me? The Impossible Skeptic.

You all know the character archtype: Supernatural shit is happening, there is clear proof of it right in front of their fucking eyes, and yet somehow they still deny it–not out of fear or such kind of terrified denial, but just, straight up, a casual or angry "No, that is not happening/does not exist". The most fucking stupid example I can think of comes from THE FOURTH KIND (Bad film exploiting real events like mass dissappearances in Nome, Alaska and mocking them by saying "ALIENS DID IT!"), when the main character is put under house arrest. A cop is waiting outside with his dash-cam on, when suddenly, GIANT BLACK FLYING SAUCER floats by and starts abducting people. Although the latter part was not caught as the Dashcam went on the fritz during that part (i.e The budget was not in the mood to pull that scene off convincingly), he does report in this happening and is able to get backup.

Backup arrives.

They are able to see the tape.

The main character, who's daugher has just fucking dissappeared, is in utter hysterics. So, what conclusion does the Sheriff come to?

CLEARLY THE FOOTAGE WAS FAKED AND THE MOTHER IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DISAPPEARANCE. ALL THE EVIDENCE OBVIOUSLY POINTS TO IT.

I can handle the stupid fucking denial scenes that always happen in Paranormal Activity, because I can assume that is a person trying to dney an uncomfortable truth or a result of demonic mindfuckery, or just general incompetence. I can at least speculate reasons for these.

But a fucking Sheriff, who has LITERAL VIDEO EVIDENCE (And no, "Oh, you can say that's just a Star or a Planet or Swamp Gas" bullshit, literally a massive black disc floating in from the horizon and coming to a halt above the house) AND OFFICER TESTIMONY THAT FUCKING ALIENS DO IN FACT EXIST AND THEY KIDNAPPED PEOPLE HERE, has the fucking pea-minded gall to see a horrified mother and go, "YOU DID IT!" and nothing else. Because it's not like he arrests her or anything. No, he just mosies on over, is told explicitly "AYYS LMAOS, HOLY FUCKING SHIT!", he gives a derisive snort, looks at the Mom, goes "It's fake as fuck, where'd you hide your kid? Not gonna tell me? Bad lady", and just fucks off with there being no further actions or investigations done (although to be perfectly fair, there's not exactly anything they can do).

Ignoring again how really fucking offensive that is to the actual police in the actual town this is set in, it's fristrating to have a films big piece of drama lie in the fact that a character is IMPOSSIBLE BLIND to things right in fucking fromt of them. It artificially raises the stakes, because the writer isn't wanting to go through the effort of having people act like, ya know, people.
 
Neither will Rock, Paper, Shotgun or GiantBomb, which you said you wanted literary critics to emulate. Or even Jim Sterling, as much as I like him.

"And on that fateful day, Jim Sterling gave BotW an 7.5 out of 10, causing the great academic Zelda Historikerstreit of 2017 and a re-evalution of the previously dominant opinion nowadays called 'Le Fanboyisme Séga'."

I mean, come on. :rofl:
Yes, I'm asking for criticism of respected, classical literature such as Les Fleurs du mal, Crime and Punishment, or Metamorphosis to be written in a way that produces clarity and understanding in the targeted readers (e.g. to schoolchildren of the next generation). Also, the RPS reviews I've read sure look better than the quote you gave above.

But instead, we get stuff about which Orwell ranted, like this:
A tangent on art criticism said:
MEANINGLESS WORDS. In certain kinds of writing, particularly in art criticism and literary criticism, it is normal to come across long passages which are almost completely lacking in meaning(2). Words like romantic, plastic, values, human, dead, sentimental, natural, vitality, as used in art criticism, are strictly meaningless, in the sense that they not only do not point to any discoverable object, but are hardly ever expected to do so by the reader. When one critic writes, 'The outstanding feature of Mr. X's work is its living quality', while another writes, 'The immediately striking thing about Mr. X's work is its peculiar deadness', the reader accepts this as a simple difference opinion. If words like black and white were involved, instead of the jargon words dead and living, he would see at once that language was being used in an improper way.

And yes, journalistic (or 'journalistic') articles about new games and films seem to be less prone to being full of meaningless words than school textbooks written by lit critics. Which is why I have more use for a criticism of a book told to me by an acquaintance, or for a criticism written by a self-taught blogger, than by a professionally educated critic who's supposed to know how to write things comprehensibly for a target audience.
 
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Yes, I'm asking for criticism of respected, classical literature such as Les Fleurs du mal, Crime and Punishment, or Metamorphosis to be written in a way that produces clarity and understanding in the targeted readers (e.g. to schoolchildren of the next generation).
And thus you have, of course, conclusively proven that it's okay to deride literary critics, mock them, and make them your punching bag.

Oh wait, no, that's not what happened.

You just said -- and I am now paraphrasing with a lot of goodwill -- that you want increased quality of education in schools and more resources given to teachers, schools, and their training and resources in order to allow them to teach the classics in a more approachable way to the youth.

You haven't conclusively proven in any way that literary criticism is "snobby" and that they deserve our mockery as a profession.

By the way, that quote of yours? That was written by George Orwell during a time of his life (1946) when he was under intense pressure because of failing health, and is directed at a very specific type of journalist literary critics of his time, which varied in quality. He was also a pretty angry man. Orwell himself also admitted that he violated his own advise at times, so...

Orwell wasn't wrong about how people abuse the English language, mind, but considering I just read some lit-crit reviews and find them sorely lacking what he describes, with them being perfectly useful tools to find new books, and you have done jack shit to prove your claim how "all literary critics are snobby" -- to the point where you needed a seventy-year-old rant by a much better writer than yourself to "prove" your point, instead of providing examples or providing material counterarguments -- I'm not sure how relevant it is.

I can play the same game, by the way!

"Quotation, n.: The act of repeating erroneously the word of another." Ambrose Pierce, 1842-1914, journalist. The Devil's Dictionary, 1911.

...It's not very convincing, is it?
 
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I just read some lit-crit reviews and find them sorely lacking what he describes, with them being perfectly useful tools to find new books,
Related: at which would you place the distinction between 'reviewer' and 'lit critic'? I guess you could say there's none, but I cannot really put a guy that just give his opinion about a book in the same category as academics...
 
Okay, everything else aside...how is describing a work as alive or dead meaningless? The meaning seems fairly obvious to me. A work with "living quality", as the quote puts it, is active. There's plenty of movement and clarity in the description, the characters feel vibrant and genuine and the setting feels dynamic and...well, alive. A dead work is the opposite of that, description is dull, colourless and static, the characters are staid and stereotypical and the pace plods in a way that's draining and dreary rather than comforting and contemplative. Really, all the words used as examples in that quote are packed with meaning (except maybe human. That one really depends on the context it's used in)
 
Related: at which would you place the distinction between 'reviewer' and 'lit critic'? I guess you could say there's none, but I cannot really put a guy that just give his opinion about a book in the same category as academics...
Are people paying that person to give their opinions on books and literature?

If [Yes], they are a literary critic.
If [No], they are a random person.

You can choose on your own whether to listen to either one of them, both, or neither.

I mean, if this is the question, how do you define the word "video game critic"? Are there requirements for that?
 
And thus you have, of course, conclusively proven that it's okay to deride literary cticis, mock them, and make them your punching bag.
Nobody ever 'proves' what is okay to mock or not; satire and sarcasm normally treat everything as a fair target.

Oh wait, no, that's not what happened.

You just said -- and I am now paraphrasing with a lot of goodwill -- that you want increased quality of education in schools and more resources given to teachers, schools, and their training and resources in order to allow them to teach the classics in a more approachable way to the youth.

You haven't conclusively proven in any way that literary criticism is "snobby" and that they deserve our mockery as a profession.

By the way, that quote of yours? That was written by George Orwell during a time of his life (1946) when he was under intense pressure because of failing health, and is directed at a very specific type of journalist literary critics of his time, which varied in quality. He was also a pretty angry man.

Orwell wasn't wrong about how people abuse the English language, mind, but considering I just read some lit-crit reviews and find them sorely lacking what he describes, with them being perfectly useful tools to find new books, and you have done jack shit to prove that this is still happening -- to the point where you needed a seventy-year-old rant by a much better writer than yourself to "prove" your point instead of providiing examples -- I'm not sure how relevant it is.

I can play the same game, by the way!

"Quotation, n.: The act of repeating erroneously the word of another." Ambrose Pierce, 1842-1914, journalist. The Devil's Dictionary, 1911.

It's not very convincing, is it?
Mostly I want the critics holding the more society-changing positions (read: those who have enough influence and reputation to be put into books that shape the upcoming generations) to write in a less snobby manner. So long as they keep being snobby, they open themselves to such criticism (heh).

Looking over over a list of 9th-grade essay topics for criticizing standard works of literature, I'm currently finding such wonderfully pretentious, deeply-sounding-but-uninformative titles as "Vanity - is it always our 'I'?", "I own the world, and the world has no power over me", "Truth is the child of time", "Beauty will save the world if the world saves the beauty", "I murdered not her, but myself" (hint: the former is true, the latter is not) and the like. Orwell's rant seems still relevant.

I don't know, maybe your childhood (that age when pretty much everyone spends no less than two hours per week immersed in literature criticism) was different, but the fact that many people seem to read the criticism of critics and immediately react "Yes! You've been through this too!", should probably be telling that this isn't coming out of nowhere. Maybe a younger generation will grow up with less snobby critics, and will not make fun of them as a result.
 
Nobody ever 'proves' what is okay to mock or not; satire and sarcasm normally treat everything as a fair target.
Except that undeserved and ignorant mockery is neither satire nor sarcasm and only exposes ignorance.

Mostly I want the critics holding the more society-changing positions (read: those who have enough influence and reputation to be put into books that shape the upcoming generations) to write in a less snobby manner. So long as they keep being snobby, they open themselves to such criticism (heh).

Looking over over a list of 9th-grade essay topics for criticizing standard works of literature, I'm currently finding such wonderfully pretentious, deeply-sounding-but-uninformative titles as "Vanity - is it always our 'I'?", "I own the world, and the world has no power over me", "Truth is the child of time", "Beauty will save the world if the world saves the beauty", "I murdered not her, but myself" (hint: the former is true, the latter is not) and the like. Orwell's rant seems still relevant.

I don't know, maybe your childhood (that age when pretty much everyone spends no less than two hours per week immersed in literature criticism) was different, but the fact that many people seem to read the criticism of critics and immediately react "Yes! You've been through this too!", should probably be telling that this isn't coming out of nowhere. Maybe a younger generation will grow up with less snobby critics, and will not make fun of them as a result.
So why are you saying literary critics are "snobby" when this has everything to do with teachers and the government?
 
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Interjecting myself into the literary criticism debate:

@Fernandel -- I do see your point about the difference between academic criticism and journalistic literary criticism, but ultimately I think it's tangential to the topic originally raised by Rook. Whenever people bash on literary critics in fiction, they're not thinking of the guy who writes the book column in the Sunday paper; they're thinking of academic critics of the type that Vicky and Vyslante have talked about.

Criticism of literary critics tends to fall into one of two categories:

1) Basically revenge-bashing one's middle-school and high-school literature teachers. If you had a your-own-native-language lit teacher at the pre-college level who actually helped you gain an appreciation for the books you were reading instead of making great works of literature a tedious and painful chore, you are a lucky, lucky person. I can't think of a single book I read in any lit class from 7th-12th grade (with the possible exception of Hamlet) that I would ever want to touch again. You would have to offer either cash payments or threats of violence to get me to come near Steinbeck or Hemingway. (And frankly? High school lit teachers often deserve mockery.)

2) A fundamental suspicion that the entire profession of academic literary criticism is a giant circlejerk. The hard sciences are basically independent of humans--gravity, for example, will continue to exist whether or not we care about it. But literature--specifically, the analytical study of "the great works"--exists only within the human circle. There is no objective standard, only subjective ones. There are people who believe that the question "Why is Shakespeare's work great?" is answered by "People who are paid money to write scholarly papers about Shakespeare say so, and they teach their students that, and those students get their English Lit degrees and get jobs being paid to write about Shakespeare." (Point 1, above, only exacerbates this, because unless you are an actual English Lit student you will likely not spend a lot of time in an English Lit classroom in college.) If it's modern "literature," well, now you get a lot of crossover with the general critique of modern art, where "What is Art?" is a valid--and often necessary--topic of debate.

tl;dr Large amounts of the population believe literary analysis is full of snobs because their encounters with literary analysis boil down to "I am better than you because I understand this great work that you don't." It's a frame-of-reference problem, and until people's frame of reference gets changed, then the perception isn't going anywhere.
 
See, @DezoPenguin, that's a helluva lot more nuanced and interesting than anything else I've heard on the topic in years.

I still maintain that this remains very much a problem with teachers, and academic "circlejerks" are not nearly as common as people think it is.

So that makes it, as you said, exclusively a frame of reference problem. Shouting about "snobby literary critics" solves that problem in precisely zero ways.
 
Except that undeserved and ignorant mockery is neither satire nor sarcasm and only exposes ignorance.


So why are you saying literary critics are "snobby" when this has everything to do with teachers and the government?
When I was a kid, I did some checking. It's not the teachers' choice. When asked why the canonical criticism is such-and-such, they answer along the lines of "I didn't write that, it comes from the programme" and "well obviously the programme is written in the ministry in accordance to the views of high-ranked literature experts". Or are you saying that people who do reviews for a newspaper count as lit critics but the tenured lit critics who write the textbooks and/or head literature specialists of the Ministry for Education who approve those textbooks for use by children don't? Because caricatures are usually made based on those people, whether from direct exposure or from exposure to their programmes.

Now, back on topic:
When writing I Did What I Had To / Hard Man Doing Hard Decision, picking a pre-established character who doesn't fit the trope. Apparently the most infamous example nowadays is Superman.
 
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I admit as an American your whole paragraph just baffled me, though I know it's just cultural.

...actually, where in the EU is Vy from? Is this some sort of European thing? :V
 
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I guess it's the, "The Ministry of Education, in conjunction with totally relevant and respected academic literary critics on some sort of board that people actually listen to, has TOLD you that you must point out to children that this cigar is a phallic symbol in this novel."

Eh.
Well the formulation does sound a bit ominous :V
 
I am basing my opinion on lit criticism I've encountered. To clarify:
'Respectable' literature seems to be heavily intertwined with some combination of (rather toxic, IMHO) expectations that true art is (a) incomprehensible/irrational/unspeakable/unknowable and (b) tragic/angsty/grave/serious/etc. That's actually a cliché about "writing proper art" that I hate. And literary criticism seems primarily focused on such true art. Somehow lit critics are always spending little to no time on analyzing what makes Ostap Vyshnya's stories so funny and how to repeat this level of success, but lots and lots of time on analyzing the existential symbolism of some War and Peace character looking at the colour of the sky. With poetry (including songwriting) it's usually even worse than with prose: even if poetry isn't notably tragedy-obsessed compared to prose, it seems to be orders of magnitude worse at clarity of writing. With criticism thereof being to match.

By comparison, critics of mainstream films (not of esoteric ones) and of computer games seem to be much less snobby IME.

I really wish that the cliché of sobbism disappeared from literature (especially poetry) and the criticism thereof. When I see a lit critic who criticizes Martin Eden, Crime and Punishment, or Les Fleurs du mal in a more laid-back manner closer to the way Rock Paper Shotgun criticizes games, I won't try to turn that person into a punching bag - I will sigh with relief and cheer for this person!
Yes, there are certain privileged areas of thought in literary criticism that receive more examination and certain less privileged areas that are, in comparison, left fallow.

That's not snobbishness. That's called being an academic field.

Like, for example, in Physics, fluid dynamics is generally disregarded in favor of general relativity. There are in-field reasons for this (fluid dynamics is hard as fuck), but from the outside looking in one would not be entirely unwarranted for speculating that physicists were snobs who just ignored fluids (some radical feminists made this argument, actually).

You're CS, right? Can you honestly tell me that paying people to find the slowest sort algorithm possible was a better use of our collective time than any of the alternatives like, say, something relatively unexplored like networking? Again, there are reasons for this (new sorts are relatively easy to examine and make papers out of--hell, if I get around to pursuing a doctorate and can't come up with ideas for a dissertation I'll probably do it too), but, again, from the outside looking in, it kind of looks like your snobbishness, doesn't it?

Yeah, literary critics focus on dramatic works. There are reasons for this (probably that they're easier to examine with current techniques, as someone who is not a literary critic I honestly couldn't say), and writing it off as "snobbishness" is fundamentally an anti-intellectual notion. The fact that you have consumed literature does not mean you have equal ability to perform literary criticism as someone who's actually studied the field intensely, just as much as taking a few online coding classes doesn't qualify you to march into Donald Knuth's office and say that his algorithms are shit.
 
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