DezoPenguin
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And to the extent it does, it doesn't say "Pol Pot was literally Beelzebub walking around on Earth."
Cliches you can't stand
- Thread starter Mithras
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And to the extent it does, it doesn't say "Pol Pot was literally Beelzebub walking around on Earth."
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ITT: Random person tells someone with a history degree what the Christian histories he read said.
This is so utterly wrong on so many levels it boggles the mind.
Christian theology has always maintained that bad things happen because people choose to sin of their own free will. Demons and the Devil were not the main creators of sin in Christian theology. In fact, whether either truly exist and is compatible with the Christian faith was and still is a hotly debated topic. Some theologians have argued that the Devil is not real, but merely allegorical for humanity's darker impulses and temptation to sin.
Hell, early accusers of witchcraft were executed themselves, because obviously only a heretic would believe witchcraft and demons existed.
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Morphic Tide
Crazy Brainstormer, Munchkin and Wannabe Min-Maxer
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- MI, USA
I'm talking about the Bible. As in what Christianity is defined by, not the historic records people who said they were Christian made. Adam and Eve ate the Fruit of Knowledge (of Right and Wrong is sometimes added to the name) because they were talked into it by a serpent that is often said to be the Devil, Satan or Lucifer (detailed Biblical mythology actually has the three be separate things, sometimes).
It also shows in Genesis that basically the only "evil" Adam and Eve were able to properly consider committing before actually doing it was disobeying a bizarre order from God. And some translations call the fruit the Fruit of Knowledge of Right and Wrong, implying that Adam and Eve were literally incapable of having their own subjective view of good and evil. And they did this due to being convinced to by the Serpent, which is said to be a depiction of Satan, Lucifer or the Devil. The "original sin" was caused by demonic persuasion or a jerkass angel talking the two into it, not normal free will.
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So...they exercised their free will in a way that wound up being sinful? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying.
Or do you have a definition of free will where if your friend says, "Hey, you should go to Taco Bell" and you say, "That sounds like a good idea" it wasn't of your own free will.
[Insert Joke About Taco Bell and the Consequences Of Eating It Here]
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Morphic Tide
Crazy Brainstormer, Munchkin and Wannabe Min-Maxer
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They were talked into it. It was not entirely free will.
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...then nobody has ever had free will ever.
I'm talking to you right now. I'm am evil monster, chaining your will down with my words!
DezoPenguin
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Most of us learn that "My friend talked me into (doing stupid thing/thing I'm forbidden to do)" doesn't work as a defense on our mom at age six or thereabouts.
Morphic Tide
Crazy Brainstormer, Munchkin and Wannabe Min-Maxer
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- MI, USA
Let me put it a bit clearer: Eve was only barely considering doing it and was talked into actually doing it, and Adam was simply talked into it from actively not wanting to do it.
There is a difference between "my friend talked me into it" and "I didn't actually want to, but then the talking snake convinced me."
They were convinced to sin, but they nonetheless chose to sin. An exercise of free will cast out Adam and Eve from Eden.
What's amazing is that there's actual arguments made that the Snake acted on God's design, giving humanity wisdom to go forth and leave Eden's safe stagnancy. Why else would God even allow the Temptation to happen if He is benevolent and all-knowing?
And even then, not even the Vatican's scholars take Genesis as literally as you do. What the hell.
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I mean, you can make philosophical points on god's perfect foreknowledge in relation to the existence of sin and its nature and all, but that gets deep into the weeds of having a discussion about philosophy, not literature.
The point that was being made was that urban fantasy sometimes has Hitler as a Zombie Vampire and that's why he committed the Holocaust, whereas Christian history, while it may be flawed in many ways, does not blame Hitler/et all on Demonic possession. That was the actual point made, I assume, before @Morphic Tide decided that he'd like to cosplay as Me As An Atheist Teenager.
Vyslanté
The self is a prison
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The amazing part in that is that some apparently think that it's a good thing.
DezoPenguin
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So according to you, anyone who changes their opinion about anything following discussion and/or debate, is completely innocent of all responsibility for the consequences of any actions taken in accordance with the revised opinion, and all praise or blame for those consequences goes to the one who did convinced them to change their initial opinion?
Persuasive discussion is not magic mind-control.
The point that was being made was that urban fantasy sometimes has Hitler as a Zombie Vampire and that's why he committed the Holocaust, whereas Christian history, while it may be flawed in many ways, does not blame Hitler/et all on Demonic possession. That was the actual point made, I assume, before @Morphic Tide decided that he'd like to cosplay as Me As An Atheist Teenager.
Also, yes, this was exactly my original point. (Grimm, for example, has Hitler be a Wesen instead of a human being, and then doubles down on the nonhuman supernatural excuses by having him also be under the influence of magical coins that give their bearer charisma and leadership skills combined with overwhelming ego and ambition.)
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That's basically Mormon theology. I'm not sure it's really widespread in (mainstream) Christianity.
Point is, however, it's actual theology. It's something that Christians have struggled with ever since the Problem of Evil became a prominent point of discussion.
And I distinctly remember this point of discussion turning up when talking to a German Lutheran priest. No idea if it was heretical or not, but people struggle with this problem even today.
That's something I won't make a judgment on, personally. Whether people consider it kindness or cruelty is something they need to decide for themselves.
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- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
Well, there's a reason I put "mainstream" there, if in parentheses. It's very doubtable if Mormon theology should count as Christian theology, and so far the topic has always been about Christianity. Personally, I would classify Mormonism as an independent off-shot of Christianity, not part of it.
...Mormons believe in God the Almighty, Jesus as His son, and the Holy Ghost.
How can you not call them Christians? That's, like, the basics of Christian belief.
NemiTheNen
Perpetual Phone Poster
How could have Adam and Eve known it was bad to eat the fruit until they ate the fruit any ways?
It's actually a cliche you see sometimes even in modern media, you should know better when no, they couldn't. Relying on belly feels for morality instead of ethics.
It's actually a cliche you see sometimes even in modern media, you should know better when no, they couldn't. Relying on belly feels for morality instead of ethics.
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Just like when the nuclear engineer says you shouldn't go bathing in the toxic waste, and you do, you aren't to blame. I mean, in theory they could have said, "God probably has a good reason, he's an expert at, you know, BEING GOD so we'll listen to him."
Vyslanté
The self is a prison
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- European Union
shrugs. I mean, sure, you can argue about "yes now we have to suffer, but it's for Knowledge" but... Yeah, 'cause your oh-so-perfect and oh-so-loving omnipotent deity could not give you knowledge without suffering?
NemiTheNen
Perpetual Phone Poster
Just like when the nuclear engineer says you shouldn't go bathing in the toxic waste, and you do, you aren't to blame. I mean, in theory they could have said, "God probably has a good reason, he's an expert at, you know, BEING GOD so we'll listen to him."
But they had no concept of things being bad or good.
EDIT: I mean, I once read an account of these guys telling the story of Hamlet to a tribe in Africa, I think it was. And basically they got caught up on the whole drowning thing. They had no concept of people being able to drown in water, it was impossible. And the ghost thing didn't translate right either, because of the cultural differences.
No concept of good, evil, or even pain or death.
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Private Lee O'Malley
Easygoing Egoist
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- Gensokyo
...because he literally said "Yo don't fucking eat this you'll die." and while they didn't die instantaneously on the spot, they got kicked out of Eden and due to sin being introduced to the world, shit got fucked. So yeah, they were explicitly warned not to and I'm not sure you can give a bigger warning then "Don't do this thing or you'll die."
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- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
And a whole bunch additional stuff. And even how they define "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" is really, really different. And that doesn't even touch the definition of Christianity as the adherents of the Nicene Creed (which yes, I would find a bit too restrictive).
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Like I said, it's not for me to decide how to see God and then judge others for how they view Him.
I personally think that if God exists, he is unknowable and has so far left me my free will, and thus I choose to try to be a good person. If God cast us out of Eden, it changes nothing about who I am and who I choose to be. If God does not exist, then I choose of my free will anyway. The reality of the world around me does not change in either way.
And if people choose to be good and kind because belief in God gives them strength and compassion, more power to them.
But that's, you know, just my opinion, man.
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Private Lee O'Malley
Easygoing Egoist
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- Gensokyo
Does this religious debate really belong in here though?