Chronicles of Nations - Civ Quest

[Oshha]

(by the way, what is that exactly, @Oshha?)

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It is a reference to PoC and a play on words regarding how despite free labour being called free in the sense you have no enslaved workers, it is actually quite expensive to keep up compared to using slave labour. The Arthwyd have it due to being no slavery, officially or unofficially.

 

[BlueFlamingWings]

Nah, it's Proselytising.

If you spread your religion to another nation, then either the nation's value system must shift to be compatible with the religion, or the religion must shift to be compatible with the value system.

Normally, this is no problem, but because religion literally feeds into the Gods, it becomes an issue.

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The goal in converting another civ basically would have "nation's value system ... shift to be compatible with the religion" (as you put it), it would better than just leaving it untouched and hoping for the best years down the line with "accepting" it or going to war to alter it as we see fit. We done this already once before with the All-Seer. Neither our faith or theirs is set in stone yet.

But anyways, I can see us going in circles here. Can you speak on this, @Oshha?

I have no idea why we are applying "forever enemies" to immortal beings that change over vast quantities of time.

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Yeah, that's part of the reason why I don't want open hostilities.

Edit:

Because I don't want slavers in or around our pantheon.

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That's why any conversion would see them abolishing slavery entirely.

 

[10ebbor10]

The goal in converting another civ basically would have "nation's value system ... shift to be compatible with the religion" (as you put it), it would better than just leaving it untouched and hoping for the best years down the line with "accepting" it or going to war to alter it as we see fit. We done this already once before with the All-Seer. Neither our faith or theirs is set in stone yet.

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I don't see where you disagree with me then?

 

[Kiba]

It is a reference to PoC and a play on words regarding how despite free labour being called free in the sense you have no enslaved workers, it is actually quite expensive to keep up compared to using slave labour. The Arthwyd have it due to being no slavery, officially or unofficially.

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Well, there is a real world terminology called unfree labor, which encompasses everything from slavery to the threat of destitution.

 

[Oshha]

But anyways, I can see us going in circles here. Can you speak on this, @Oshha?

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I'm not sure what you are discussing. Proselytising can result in your religion being adapted to the foreign culture or the foreign culture being adapted to your religion and in most cases, it will be a bit of both as the two things meet in the middle. In most cases, it will result in the former at first, but the imposing cultural influence of the Arthwyd will make things trend towards the latter afterwards.

 

[BlueFlamingWings]

I don't see where you disagree with me then?

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I disagree that Proselytizing would be worse than Cosmopolitan. Actually going in there to convert foreign cultures, while pontentially opening us to some minor changes as both religions merge and change, is still better than leaving it alone.

 

[jjffjhjf]

The goal in converting another civ basically would have "nation's value system ... shift to be compatible with the religion" (as you put it), it would better than just leaving it untouched and hoping for the best years down the line with "accepting" it or going to war to alter it as we see fit. We done this already once before with the All-Seer. Neither our faith or theirs is set in stone yet.

But anyways, I can see us going in circles here. Can you speak on this, @Oshha?



Yeah, that's part of the reason why I don't want open hostilities.

Edit:

That's why any conversion would see them abolishing slavery entirely.

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I don't have an issue with converting the people, its the gods I want to get rid of.

 

[BlueFlamingWings]

I'm not sure what you are discussing. Proselytising can result in your religion being adapted to the foreign culture or the foreign culture being adapted to your religion and in most cases, it will be a bit of both as the two things meet in the middle. In most cases, it will result in the former at first, but the imposing cultural influence of the Arthwyd will make things trend towards the latter afterwards.

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It mainly has to do with, as I see it, the three different paths that we can take with the Foresters:

1. Cultural take over with Proselyting.
2. Leaving them alone and just accepting/tolerating them.
3. Militantly going to war and forcibly altering their culture.

Is this right? You spoke on Proselytizing but what about Cosmopolitan and Militant?

 

[10ebbor10]

I disagree that Proselytizing would be worse than Cosmopolitan. Actually going in there to convert foreign cultures, while pontentially opening us to some minor changes as both religions merge and change, is still better than leaving it alone.

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I don't think I ever argued in favor of Cosmopolitan. I was just against Proselytizing.

The thing with Proselytizing is that it makes spreading the religion a goal upon itself.
So, in the first wave, the religion will spread from us to our neighbors, who we can directly influence. But the new followers inside those neighbors will also follow the proselytizing belief, and spread the religion further, potentially outside our cultural influence sphere.

With continuing spread, the risk of changes being made to the religion becomes greater and greater.

Not that the alternative (religion changes values) is much better. Because our religion is incompatible with several values that will be cornerstones of foreign countries economies, a succesfull attempt at conversion is likely to be seen as a threat. As a result, we'll see persecution, and likely war.

 

[BlueFlamingWings]

I don't have an issue with converting the people, its the gods I want to get rid of.

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God. Just Urthryn for now, she doesn't have a pantheon (Thank God), but what if the culture and worship of her be changed so slavery isn't practiced among the Foresters? Can you not see her and her Daughters incorporated into the faith?

 

[Hallesworth49]

God. Just Urthryn for now, she doesn't have a pantheon (Thank God), but what if the culture and worship of her be changed so slavery isn't practiced among the Foresters? Can you not see her and her Daughters incorporated into the faith?

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I think jjffjhjf, is also including Nalnir when he is referring to gods (and possibly some of the other gods which we meet in the future).

 

[jjffjhjf]

God. Just Urthryn for now, she doesn't have a pantheon (Thank God), but what if the culture and worship of her be changed so slavery isn't practiced among the Foresters? Can you not see her and her Daughters incorporated into the faith?

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No. Not at all. Urth cares solely for him/herself. Doesn't fit at all. The immortal daughters could concievably be brought to our culture/religion, but personally I don't trust any of them, including our new general lady. I'm a bit paranoid Urth has a back-door into their minds/bodies. Also, Nalnir is another person I want kept far away, so when I say gods I'm talking about both of them. So no, All-Boar I'm okay with having a pantheonic alliance with, but the other 2 I can't support allowing to continue to exist. So long as there are slaves Zaranna seems like a lesser evil and can be allowed to continue to exist.

 

[BlueFlamingWings]

I don't think I ever argued in favor of Cosmopolitan. I was just against Proselytizing.

The thing with Proselytizing is that it makes spreading the religion a goal upon itself.
So, in the first wave, the religion will spread from us to our neighbors, who we can directly influence. But the new followers inside those neighbors will also follow the proselytizing belief, and spread the religion further, potentially outside our cultural influence sphere.

With continuing spread, the risk of changes being made to the religion becomes greater and greater.

Not that the alternative (religion changes values) is much better. Because our religion is incompatible with several values that will be cornerstones of foreign countries economies, a succesfull attempt at conversion is likely to be seen as a threat. As a result, we'll see persecution, and likely war.

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I see. Thanks for clarifying.

So, it's less that you're opposed to converting the Foresters and altering their culture and more that you're opposed to having the Proselytizing Doctrine be a core aspect to the faith where those we convert would convert others as well. Fair enough. What exactly do you want to see happen with foreigners?

No. Not at all. Urth cares solely for him/herself. Doesn't fit at all. The immortal daughters could concievably be brought to our culture/religion, but personally I don't trust any of them, including our new general lady. I'm a bit paranoid Urth has a back-door into their minds/bodies. Also, Nalnir is another person I want kept far away, so when I say gods I'm talking about both of them. So no, All-Boar I'm okay with having a pantheonic alliance with, but the other 2 I can't support allowing to continue to exist. So long as there are slaves Zaranna seems like a lesser evil and can be allowed to continue to exist.

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I don't know about Nalnir but Urthryn and Zaranna could easily be added to the faith if some of their core values change.

Nalnir simply doesn't care about his people and I doubt he'll change if they do.

 

[jjffjhjf]

I see. Thanks for clarifying.

So, it's less that you're opposed to converting the Foresters and altering their culture and more that you're opposed to having the Proselytizing Doctrine be a core aspect to the faith where those we convert would convert others as well. Fair enough. What exactly do you want to see happen with foreigners?



I don't know about Nalnir but Urthryn and Zaranna could easily be added to the faith if some of their core values change.

Nalnir simply doesn't care about his people and I doubt he'll change if they do.

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"If their core values change" is the important thing there. I don't think they will, and I'm not willing to risk trying if doing so might get them into our pantheon without said changes. So... no. Not at all. Remove their followers from existence, and kill them that way, or have Arthryn kill them herself. Either way, get rid of them. (Removing followers from existence includes converting said followers, such that they renounce their previous religion completely)

 

[10ebbor10]

So, it's less that you're opposed to converting the Foresters and altering their culture and more that you're opposed to having the Proselytizing Doctrine be a core aspect to the faith where those we convert would convert others as well. Fair enough. What exactly do you want to see happen with foreigners?

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For the moment, I don't really know. I was strongly opposed to Urth for some time, and still am to an extent, but Gods and societal beliefs of both Caradysh and Forluc seem to be shifting quite a bit, so I'm not sure what they're now.

We'll see in a turn or so....

 

[BlueFlamingWings]

"If their core values change" is the important thing there. I don't think they will, and I'm not willing to risk trying if doing so might get them into our pantheon without said changes. So... no. Not at all. Remove their followers from existence, and kill them that way, or have Arthryn kill them herself. Either way, get rid of them. (Removing followers from existence includes converting said followers, such that they renounce their previous religion completely)

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I think we should at least give Urth (Zaranna is a minor god - let's wait until he actually has a people) the chance to be redeemed and to change. We can do a conversion (I'm glad to see we're in agreement there) and fundamentally shift the Forester's culture. If Urthryn shifts with it, great, if slavery is crucially tied into her very existence than yes, worship of her will have to be wiped out too.

 

[Raichu1972]

I think we should at least give Urth (Zaranna is a minor god - let's wait until he actually has a people) the chance to be redeemed and to change. We can do a conversion (I'm glad to see we're in agreement there) and fundamentally shift the Forester's culture. If Urthryn shifts with it, great, if slavery is crucially tied into her very existence than yes, worship of her will have to be wiped out too.

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Zaranna is a she, and she has been around for as long as Arthryn has.
Her people are the Lowlander tribes, and is in general the patron of slaves, so I doubt she's going anywhere anytime soon.

 

[BlueFlamingWings]

For the moment, I don't really know. I was strongly opposed to Urth for some time, and still am to an extent, but Gods and societal beliefs of both Caradysh and Forluc seem to be shifting quite a bit, so I'm not sure what they're now.

We'll see in a turn or so....

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I totally get that. I'm a new reader and was pretty opposed to Urth at first while catching up, but now I see a opportunity with how similar the two are (Urthryn and Arthryn are literally only a letter apart and are both Mothers with four Daughters). I think there is potential there for her to be a foil - and not one that necessarily has to result in conflict.

 

[jjffjhjf]

I totally get that. I'm a new reader and was pretty opposed to Urth at first while catching up, but now I see a opportunity with how similar the two are (Urthryn and Arthryn are literally only a letter apart and are both Mothers with four Daughters). I think there is potential there for her to be a foil - and not one that necessarily has to result in conflict.

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She has way more than 4 daughters. She has crap-tons of daughters, just 4 that were important. She went and got pregnant every time she could to get more daughters for more power. And all of her daughters were told to get lots more kids too. There are probably a hell of a lot of immortals.

 

[10ebbor10]

Yeah, I wonder if the breeding quotas still exist.

 

[BlueFlamingWings]

She has way more than 4 daughters. She has crap-tons of daughters, just 4 that were important. She went and got pregnant every time she could to get more daughters for more power. And all of her daughters were told to get lots more kids too. There are probably a hell of a lot of immortals.

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Yes, I'm aware of that - just like how Arthryn and the Goddesses also have multiple children (both male and female) in the after life. They are just not seen/important in the pantheon.

In fact, both Arthryn and Urthryn are so similar I wonder if it's intentional. The fact the immortal litch Urth knew of both Arth and Vryn and tried to tell people that they were two separate people makes me wonder if perhaps he was once Sorn from this update. He somehow discovered how to become Undead and took on the name Urth to compete with Arth.

 

[veekie]

Noting a few trends we know from RL religions, without supernatural backing:
-Cosmopolitan belief systems do not tend to last. Their tendency to be open to new ideas means that its only a matter of time before they absorb an idea that says "we're perfect as we are" or some variant.

-Prosletyzing faiths tend to keep their shape better. The big examples:
--Buddhism vs Hinduism. The former is spread across wide areas of the world, with numerous subsects with odd beliefs...but its definitely got consistent core message because all the new adherents will reinforce the core message back,, such that the net consensus belief that results keeps several core principles as inviolable even as many of the peripheral beliefs warped. And yet it arose from Hindu base cosmology as an esoteric philosophy, it is better at having a consistent message.

Basically the only real ways you have to 'protect' your belief system from corruption are:
-Total isolationism. They can't change your ideals if you can't talk to them.
-Aggressive spread. It becomes immensely difficult to change a faith once it hits critical mass in both spread and total populations. Self-reinforcing loops emerge as gross deviations from the core ideals are resisted by neighbor nodes, who can compare with all all THEIR neighbors don't agree.

 

[Random Member]

Urthryn isn't so bad, she's only True Neutral, not even Evil.

 

[BlueFlamingWings]

Urthryn isn't so bad, she's only True Neutral, not even Evil.

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And she can change. Their religion can change.

 

[Random Member]

-Cosmopolitan belief systems do not tend to last.

-Prosletyzing faiths tend to keep their shape better.

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Hmm. What would you say about a religion that has both Cosmopolitan and Proselytizing? Somewhere in the middle or does one of these aspects almost completely negate the benefits of the other?