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Chronicles of Nations - Civ Quest

Should the world be a Low Fantasy setting?

  • Yes

    Votes: 63 70.0%

  • No

    Votes: 27 30.0%
  • Total voters
    90
  • Poll closed .
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Chrestomanci said:
The problem with 'peace for returned captives' vote is that Eredan has no further obligations. If he is successful in his civil war then he will likely resume the war against us once he has rebuilt. Or if something occurs to distract us (such as a nomad invasion) then he could decide to raid us for resources to support his civil war.
We should choose 'peace for returned captives, & support for future concessions' instead. He will have pledged his life and in his god's name than he will reward our support. We will not be able to get everything we would like, but we could get some agricultural magic and some gender equality reforms.

Caermyr is outside our borders, approximately halfway between us and the Forluc. Being outside our border means it will be much harder to defend, and our values require us to successfully defend our settlements.
While the current strategic situation seems safe (Forluc in civil war, Nomads lack a Hero, no known strong tribes), it could change in the next update or two. The very reasons we have for wanting a settlement at the confluence are the same reasons everyone else would want to take it from us. Our new value Safe Haven (many think you weak) increases the chances that someone will think they can get away with seizing Colyrd from us.


If we make the right combination of choices, then we will gain the Colyrd as a vassal.
To me, the right combination is 'secured loyalty' with 'improved diplomatic relationships' .
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In my mind, there are three ways to approach the Forluc

1) Reject peace, burn them all to the ground with their God
2) Accept peace, try to influence their beliefs through trade since they will begin to think of us as equals
3) Accept peace, build up a coalition of people who will still hate/be threatened by them (like the Caradysh) and smash them later

I'm not going for making Eredan King of the Forluc because I don't trust his ability to make long lasting reforms. Anything that we would especially want from the Forluc (more gender equality, less xenophobia, less slavery) are things that are all but mandated from on high by their God (who Eredan still worships) and thus are essentially off the table. I would rather let them weaken each other to make them more vulnerable to diplomatic overtures/military invasion instead.
 
[X] [War] Reject Eredan's peace offer and continue the war against the Forluc.

Keep the pressure on while they're divided.

[X] [Caermyr] Return Caermyr to the Colryd and begin to settle the lowlands. (+2 Temp Diplo, Increased Relationship with everyone, Founds a Colony in the northern lowlands)
 
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[X] [War] Accept Eredan's offer of peace and both recognise and offer him assistance against the rest of the Forluc. (+4 Prestige, +3 Temp Diplo, +1 Temp Wealth, Secured Loyalty of the Colryd, further bonuses if successfully make Eredan king of the Forluc)
[X] [Caermyr] Return Caermyr to the Colryd and begin to settle the lowlands. (+2 Temp Diplo, Increased Relationship with everyone, Founds a Colony in the northern lowlands)
 
Somebodynobody10 said:
Can we get a vote tally in here, to see the trend?
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For anyone who doesn't know this, you can go to "thread tools" at the top right of the page (right below the poll) and click on vote tally.

This way, you can figure out what vote is winning at any time instead of having to ask :V
Adhoc vote count started by nat_401 on Apr 2, 2019 at 9:09 AM, finished with 10599 posts and 36 votes.
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[X] [War] Accept Eredan's offer of peace and recognise him as the King of the Forluc in exchange for Arthrynite captives. (+2 Prestige, +2 Temp Diplo, Secured Loyalty of the Colryd)
[X] [War] Accept Eredan's offer of peace and both recognise and offer him assistance against the rest of the Forluc. (+4 Prestige, +3 Temp Diplo, +1 Temp Wealth, Secured Loyalty of the Colryd, further bonuses if successfully make Eredan king of the Forluc)
[X] [Caermyr] Return Caermyr to the Colryd and begin to settle the lowlands. (+2 Temp Diplo, Increased Relationship with everyone, Founds a Colony in the northern lowlands)
[X] [Caermyr] Settle Caermyr as Arthwyd territory directly under the rule of Greenbay. (Secondary Settle Land = Lowland Conflux, Founds a Colony in the northern lowlands)
 
My only concern is getting our people back. I dont want either of these two to have a slave pop of blessed and leaving them to be potentially turned into something like Valyrian Pleasure Slaves in the Free Cities.

@Oshha can we demand he give back every arthrynite he finds when he goes attacking the southern forluc?

Because I am not okay with letting our blessing be spread by institutionalized rape and near eugenic breeding. Cuz a stronger smarter slave is one an state with institutionalized chattel slavery will want to spread and keep as a status symbol. Of course with the understanding that they can keep them controlled. Which a reconstituted forluc will likely be able to do.


Fuck that and fuck them. Waiting a turn likely lets that happen to some extent right? If turns are 20 years long that is...
 
Okay, okay, I see essentially two options here.

Option 1) a Either we can support Eredan fully and get our people back. This means we need an FOB, but we get that basically no matter what we do, so that's fine.

Pros:
We get our dudes back, no chance of our blessing getting stolen by the crazy eugenics nazis
We can support Eredan and use relatively few of our troops to deal massive damage to Forluc heartlands
Lots of Forluc will die in the war, which is good news.

Cons:
We potentially give Eredan a chance to take revenge, but he's getting old and Evatine... isn't really getting old at the same rate.
War continues (even if at a lower heat for us)
​
Option 2) We say "fuck that noise", go no peace, and just play containment outside Eredan's Lowland holdings while the Forluc slaughter eachother.

Pros:
We get to smack more Forluc in the face
Did I mention Forluc Delenda Est?
Could result in the total evaporation of the Forluc
We can potentially get away very cheaply with this, as if Eredan leaves his main base undefended (which he probably needs to take on the Forluc core) we could raze it to the ground

Cons:
We're still in the war
If Eredan and the Forluc don't fuck eachother up well enough we could essentially end up in a stalemate (yet again)
​

I have seen no good arguments for total, long-term peace effective immediately, beyond that we get a chance to "recover". That seems like a terrible idea, given that we know their economy is geared towards taking us down at all costs.
​
 
[X] [War] Accept Eredan's offer of peace and both recognise and offer him assistance against the rest of the Forluc. (+4 Prestige, +3 Temp Diplo, +1 Temp Wealth, Secured Loyalty of the Colryd, further bonuses if successfully make Eredan king of the Forluc)
[X] [War] Reject Eredan's peace offer and continue the war against the Forluc.
[X] [Caermyr] Return Caermyr to the Colryd and begin to settle the lowlands. (+2 Temp Diplo, Increased Relationship with everyone, Founds a Colony in the northern lowlands)
 
Ok, for those you want to give the Forluc time to beat each other up before we attack them again there is this option;

[] [War] Reject Eredan's peace offer, but focus on consolidating your new control over the northern lowlands.

If we take the peace treaty that means we can not attack them at all without what will probably be a severe hit to our reputation. If we can at all.
Adhoc vote count started by UlseDovThur on Apr 2, 2019 at 9:26 AM, finished with 99 posts and 38 votes.
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Adhoc vote count started by UlseDovThur on Apr 2, 2019 at 11:04 AM, finished with 132 posts and 47 votes.
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[X] [War] Accept Eredan's offer of peace and recognise him as the King of the Forluc in exchange for Arthrynite captives. (+2 Prestige, +2 Temp Diplo, Secured Loyalty of the Colryd)
[X] [Caermyr] Settle Caermyr as Arthwyd territory directly under the rule of Greenbay. (Secondary Settle Land = Lowland Conflux, Founds a Colony in the northern lowlands
 
Hm... thinking about it if we destroy the Forloc wouldn't that make it more likly for Eira to accept being a vessal state? Not only would we kill her captor getting good will from her, we would also remove the only lever she has to maintain independence. With no rival to the south we do not need a buffer state to protect our lands.
 
Alright, so this is why I am supporting the middle ground option.
Eredan is going to return any captives (and their children) that he can find to us regardless of what peace we make, so that's not an issue.

If he wins, then we get captives and we can work on preparing for another war/trying to influence them with diplomacy.
If he loses, then the heavily weakened Core of the Southern Forluc will be ripe for the picking with our Genius general and replenished army.

It's a win win.
 
jjffjhjf said:
Even if we support him, he's still going to have slaves, and Nalnir their god is still going to encourage them to treat people like chattel. Beyond that, nothing in there suggests that his god won't simply tell him screw that oath, once you get settled, kill them all anyways. Their God is just absolutely vile, and treats no one and nothing as important beyond how it can benefit him. We've hurt his people, and thus him. There is a good chance that he'll be pushing for our destruction/subjugation from now on.
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Nalnir has simple motivations, to maximise the amount of worship he gains. That makes it possible to influence him through that.
For example Nalnir will not go "screw that oath ... kill them all anyways". First, because if oaths (on Nalnir's name) are so easily broken then what does that mean for oaths of loyalty to Nalnir? Second, because we have demonstrated an undefeated military and the Forluc never even reached our territory. Every worshipper who dies fighting us is one less to worship him, so he will only support attacks he expects will gain more than lost.
He was already "pushing for our destruction/subjugation", if anything it will be less now due to the realisation that it will not be easy.

Raichu1972 said:
I'm not going for making Eredan King of the Forluc because I don't trust his ability to make long lasting reforms. Anything that we would especially want from the Forluc (more gender equality, less xenophobia, less slavery) are things that are all but mandated from on high by their God (who Eredan still worships) and thus are essentially off the table. I would rather let them weaken each other to make them more vulnerable to diplomatic overtures/military invasion instead.
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Nalnir has not mandated gender inequality (that was King Praden) , King Eredan could introduce several reforms and Nalnir would not care. Nalnir may even be happy with opening the priesthood to women (it gives him an increased number of priests).
The xenophobia and slavery are likely to not be on the table. Breeding quotas are unlikely to change, but many other rights (like the right to refuse sex, right to own property) can be restored to women. Another important concession we could get is a ban on any of our people ever being taken as slaves. Our appearance is sufficiently distinctive, and our Goddesses are linked to all our people and can alert us if the ban is ever violated.
Getting some of their agricultural magic may also be possible, and will be useful for us.
If we combine it with "Return Caermyr to the Colryd" (improved relations with everyone) we could gain more concessions due to Eredan having a better view of our people.
 
Ok, can we please think long term people? If we peace out all that does is give them the breathing space to build back up again and attack us in the future and I will remind everyone that they just gained a Mystic Genius that specializes in the use of Blood Magic, what do you guys think a Civalization That Values slaves, super sexism, and "crushing those that are beneath them", who also happen to enjoy eugenics will do after a few generations with Blood Magic!?
 
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Chrestomanci said:
Nalnir has simple motivations, to maximise the amount of worship he gains. That makes it possible to influence him through that.
For example Nalnir will not go "screw that oath ... kill them all anyways". First, because if oaths (on Nalnir's name) are so easily broken then what does that mean for oaths of loyalty to Nalnir? Second, because we have demonstrated an undefeated military and the Forluc never even reached our territory. Every worshipper who dies fighting us is one less to worship him, so he will only support attacks he expects will gain more than lost.
He was already "pushing for our destruction/subjugation", if anything it will be less now due to the realisation that it will not be easy.


Nalnir has not mandated gender inequality (that was King Praden) , King Eredan could introduce several reforms and Nalnir would not care. Nalnir may even be happy with opening the priesthood to women (it gives him an increased number of priests).
The xenophobia and slavery are likely to not be on the table. Breeding quotas are unlikely to change, but many other rights (like the right to refuse sex, right to own property) can be restored to women. Another important concession we could get is a ban on any of our people ever being taken as slaves. Our appearance is sufficiently distinctive, and our Goddesses are linked to all our people and can alert us if the ban is ever violated.
Getting some of their agricultural magic may also be possible, and will be useful for us.
If we combine it with "Return Caermyr to the Colryd" (improved relations with everyone) we could gain more concessions due to Eredan having a better view of our people.
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Except the last battle was us getting wrecked by the double Genius combo. We can't afford to deal with multiple losses like that. So we are definitely beatable.
 
Chrestomanci said:
Nalnir has not mandated gender inequality (that was King Praden) , King Eredan could introduce several reforms and Nalnir would not care. Nalnir may even be happy with opening the priesthood to women (it gives him an increased number of priests).
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False. Nalnir actually loves the current system because turning the women into breeding stock and the resulting baby making industry gives him more followers. He encouraged and supported the changes and the upkeep of the system as a result.
 
Chrestomanci said:
Nalnir has simple motivations, to maximise the amount of worship he gains. That makes it possible to influence him through that.
For example Nalnir will not go "screw that oath ... kill them all anyways". First, because if oaths (on Nalnir's name) are so easily broken then what does that mean for oaths of loyalty to Nalnir? Second, because we have demonstrated an undefeated military and the Forluc never even reached our territory. Every worshipper who dies fighting us is one less to worship him, so he will only support attacks he expects will gain more than lost.
He was already "pushing for our destruction/subjugation", if anything it will be less now due to the realisation that it will not be easy.


Nalnir has not mandated gender inequality (that was King Praden) , King Eredan could introduce several reforms and Nalnir would not care. Nalnir may even be happy with opening the priesthood to women (it gives him an increased number of priests).
The xenophobia and slavery are likely to not be on the table. Breeding quotas are unlikely to change, but many other rights (like the right to refuse sex, right to own property) can be restored to women. Another important concession we could get is a ban on any of our people ever being taken as slaves. Our appearance is sufficiently distinctive, and our Goddesses are linked to all our people and can alert us if the ban is ever violated.
Getting some of their agricultural magic may also be possible, and will be useful for us.
If we combine it with "Return Caermyr to the Colryd" (improved relations with everyone) we could gain more concessions due to Eredan having a better view of our people.
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So, I'm going to be real here, I'm not sure how you could write "restoring gender equality" in the same space as "breeding quotas" here.
Forcing women to be brood mares is something Nalnir will never be against because it gives him a large amount of power through having more mortal worshipers.

That is a big reason as to why I don't trust any sort of long term reform Eredan could make, because the current status quo of their zealous nation is one that their God is totally fine with. Any change we would try to mandate would surely weaken Nalnir, so it's not going to last.
 
[X] [War] Accept Eredan's offer of peace and recognise him as the King of the Forluc in exchange for Arthrynite captives. (+2 Prestige, +2 Temp Diplo, Secured Loyalty of the Colryd)
[X] [Caermyr] Return Caermyr to the Colryd and begin to settle the lowlands. (+2 Temp Diplo, Increased Relationship with everyone, Founds a Colony in the northern lowlands)
 
[X] [Caermyr] Settle Caermyr as Arthwyd territory directly under the rule of Greenbay. (Secondary Settle Land = Lowland Conflux,Founds a Colony in the northern lowlands)
[X] [War] Accept Eredan's offer of peace and recognise him as the King of the Forluc in exchange for Arthrynite captives. (+2 Prestige, +2 Temp Diplo, Secured Loyalty of the Colryd)
 
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