Should the world be a Low Fantasy setting?

  • Yes

    Votes: 63 70.0%
  • No

    Votes: 27 30.0%

  • Total voters
    90
  • Poll closed .
What the Hell are you talking about? The Greeks didn't let their woman be raped whenever a man wanted - their views on woman weren't better or worse than the vast majority of all other pre-industrial civilizations. Lesser, than men and owning few rights, yes, but that's what everyone did.

Right of first night. It was unenforced thing in medieval Europe and it was in the Epic of Gilgamesh as just two examples.

As for the Assyrians, since you've brought them up repeatedly, everyone just remembers their exceptionally brutal empire building. They used public displays of extreme violence like flaying and displaying their skins to intimidate opponents and vassals, not that much worse than what the Romans employed. Accounts of their civilization aren't exactly numerous, trustworthy, and proliferated, so it's unknown how 'evil' they actually are, but I'd sure as shit state they weren't as inexplicably stupid-evil as the Forluc. There were no major civilizations as bad or worse as these blatant villains you've constructed, of that I'm certain.

So you don't think they were as bad as historical records indicate so they obviously did do things as bad the Forluc.

And if you don't think civs did things as bad as the Forluc, then I think you need to look at history again. No society did all the same bad things as the Forluc, but every non-supernatural aspect of the Forluc has a counterpart in RL.

Yes, genocide and 'war crimes' happen all the damn time, and still do! That's not what we're debating about.

Yes, it is. You claim that it is cartoonish evil and unrealistic and those things didn't happen. I say it isn't too far out of what happened in the time period during RL.
 
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And if you don't think civs did things as bad as the Forluc, then I think you need to look at history again. No society did all the same bad things as the Forluc, but every non-supernatural aspect of the Forluc has a counterpart in RL.


The Assyrian does conquest. They don't destroy cities and people for the sake of proving their superiority. They saw cities and people as resources.
 
There's a lot of historical nations and groups that have plenty of the elements that make up the Forluc. Magic and Gods being real just means that they have something propping up the extreme side of things, against the natural influence to let things relax a bit. You also have to consider that they have yet to run into a disaster to shake up their culture that they can't beat. In fact, right now, we are on the path to being that disaster that happens historically to shake up a culture. Once we beat them, then they should 'correct' towards something that isn't as evil.

Pretty much the case. The supernatural aspects and a god supporting this allowed for some of the worse elements to flourish while the Forluc have yet to run into everything that has stop their methods to not work. The Forluc way of life is incapable of surviving a major defeat or loss thanks to them going extremist and once they suffer one of those, they will collapse.

Furthermore, I think the thread is doing the thing where the worst get assumed and more nuanced stands get ignored or not thought out. The Forluc are pretty bad, but their evils are not all that their to the civ. They are xenophobic and incredible strict, but they keep their people from starving if only because doing so would cause the collapse of their entire economy and government. They also make major efforts to actively hunt down corruption and incompetent as the harm caused by those things would cause the collapse of their civ.

They also treat their women somewhat well by accident. If a woman gets raped, only the man is punished for that as the Forluc don't believe the woman could say not. Even if the woman is married, it is the man who gets punished where many cultures in RL would punish the woman for adultery despite it not being her fault. Furthermore, a woman can get away with seducing or raping a man cause she wasn't being unwillingly and in those cases, it is the man who gets punished even if he wasn't at fault because the woman couldn't help making advances on her.

And while the Forluc do have a right of the first night, it isn't done excessively due to their anti-corruption ways. Any priest or sacred warrior who goes around just having sex with woman will get brutally punished for both slacking off and abusing their divinely given right.

Their leadership also holds to their promises and actually tries to fulfil their obligations to their subjects if only because they would lose their positions/get severely punished if they slacked off or didn't work hard. In fact, their leadership has to work hard and to the best of their ability to around the collapse of their efficient, but fragile system.

Yes, the Forluc are pretty bad and nasty, but their evils and abuses aren't the end all of their society if only because it wouldn't work if all they did was be evil all the time. Additionally, their system is explicitly stated to be something unsustainable that has only gone on this long because they haven't encountered any serious disasters/crises.
 
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Right of first night. It was unenforced thing in medieval Europe and it was in the Epic of Gilgamesh as just two examples.
That's not the same thing! The Right of First Night means that rulers get to sleep with a man's wife when they get married.
So you don't think they were as bad as historical records indicate so they obviously did do things as bad the Forluc.

And if you don't think civs did things as bad as the Forluc, then I think you need to look at history again. No society did all the same bad things as the Forluc, but every non-supernatural aspect of the Forluc has a counterpart in RL.
I'm absolutely sure you can cherry pick examples where a civilization generates a culture nearly as dysfunctional and vile as the Forluc on specific deeds and practices. I raised the Spartans as an example, actually, as they're one of hostiries most well recorded and infamous.
Yes, it is. You claim that it is cartoonish evil and unrealistic and those things didn't happen.
No! That's not what I'm claiming at all! I never claimed that their war practices were unrealistic! I'm flat out stating nothing has changed between then and now, you aren't exaggerating a thing! You are literally just depicting war.

It's the culture I'm taking issues with, and in specific their completely absurd and over the top attitude towards woman which serves no purpose but to em[hasize how evil they are to the players, as well as how contrived the entire situation is overall.
 
Hrrm. Honestly? I slightly feel like the Lowlands in GENERAL, not just Urth or the Forluc ended up much 'worse' then they should have because we took one look at them, went 'Nope' and turtled, then got surprise smacked by the Merintyr and basically spent our time playing around in the Northern area instead.
Meanwhile, Urth got to not only become a thing but get the Caradysh behind him, his 'rival' was put down once and for all, and the Forluc went full dickery.
I also suspect their days are numbered, if only because well, Arthwyn's kind of never LOST in a divine fight that I recall, and the potential backup of her Daughters to me suggests however fights in Divinity-zone works our ladies are the baddest thing around.
Therein is the big problem. I could see the Forluc come in, try and claim they and their god is the best, which cues the war in heaven that ends in Nalnir getting smacked down to earth, shattering their civ in the process because if they're the best, how did their god just lose? To a WOMAN, at that? Even if we tried to diplomatically bend the knee to them, that happening sooner or later just seemed inevitable.
 
I think those of you complaining about how the Forluc are overly evil are forgetting that they have a god that actively encourages and reinforces their behavior.

If the Aztecs were down for sacrificing people on mass on the regular for a god that didn't actually exist to actively encourage them to do so I think the Foluc having super misogyny is rather believable.

Edit: Do try to remember that the supernatural exists in this setting and thus the extremes of human behavior, both the good and the bad, will be both amplified and more common than in real life.
 
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I think those of you complaining about how the Forluc are overly evil are forgetting that they have a god that actively encourages and reinforces their behavior.

If the Aztecs were down for sacrificing people on mass on the regular for a god that didn't actually exist to actively encourage them to do so I think the Foluc having super misogyny is rather believable.
Just to be clear, I'm not complaining. However, I do wish to clear out the thought processes that made them what they are, both IC and GM standpoint.
 
I think those of you complaining about how the Forluc are overly evil are forgetting that they have a god that actively encourages and reinforces their behavior.

If the Aztecs were down for sacrificing people on mass on the regular for a god that didn't actually exist to actively encourage them to do so I think the Foluc having super misogyny is rather believable.
Yeah, from how I'm seeing it, just like how we shouldn't be able to have a civ like we do, the forluc shouldn't be this evil...

Except Gods are a thing here. They can act, and over time their actions are going to push civs in directions that a RL civ wouldn't contemplate/be able to do, because the inertia required to do those things would be insane.

But the gods that control these civs are old, old, old. They are going to push ideas that may be honestly outdated by this time period, and push them further than humans would.

And that can be good or bad.

With us, we see our goddesses pushing for stuff we like, which improves our civ in ways that are unreasonable for the time. But for the Forluc? Who started off with a superiority complex, whose god was likely born at the dawn of their civilization, who was likely warped by the cataclysms that shaped the growth of their civ? The effects were far more malignant.
 
It's the culture I'm taking issues with, and in specific their completely absurd and over the top attitude towards woman which serves no purpose but to em[hasize how evil they are to the players, as well as how contrived the entire situation is overall.
Just to be clear, I'm not complaining. However, I do wish to clear out the thought processes that made them what they are, both IC and GM standpoint.

It isn't contrived and is actually. The Forluc were regular misogynists due to having a male deity and warlike society, both of which led to them favouring males over females. During the Lowland Collapse, they had a misogynistic character as rolled up by a random character trait generator (according to my notes, Praden was analytical, sexism and perfectionist). Due to his biases, he imposed them into measures he used to save his civ from destruction which resulted in both a very misogynistic and perfectionist system. The system treats women terribly and won't stand up to anything that takes a blow it, but it is very efficient for getting the most numbers out of what you get. It also doesn't stand up to an major natural disaster or crises such famine or plague outbreak. Furthermore since the system was working and hadn't failed them, the Forluc haven't toned things back or been forced to tone things back. In fact, thanks to the system benefiting Nalnir, it has been encouraged and doubled down on.

It should also be noted that what I posted in the info post is just of right now and things were different and, morally-speaking, better in the past. For example, when you first discovered the Forluc, they didn't have things like the children quotas as that was introduced to improve their population size in order to match you. I would say that the Forloc have had two major points where they have gotten worse. First was when they survived the Lowland Collapse where they got their strict, elitist hierarchy and their misogynistic patriarchy as two of their major values. Since the system which got them those cultural traits worked and saved them and had yet to fail them, they didn't tone back their worse excesses, especially since the system benefited Nalnir.

When you came along and caused a societal crisis for them due to being superior to them, they decided to do what they did last time and effectively doubled down again. While this let them get more numbers out of their economy, it also made it fragile and brittle that any major blow could cause their total collapse. It also made them go from viewing women as being inherently inferior to seeing them little more than being good for breeding and sex as they forced their women to breed and have children to rapidly increase their numbers. They also double-downed on the privileges and rights of their priests and sacred warriors to make them stronger and to improve their military as their priesthood is responsible for their military.

Additionally, their double-down had other effects such as making them more xenophobia as they grew a hatred of you and anyone close to you while you got buddy-buddy with everyone else in the northern lowlands leading to the Forluc to hate anyone north of them and making how they treated captured or conquered foreigners even worse. Before they would just raid foreign villages for slaves and loot, but would leave them alive for future raids, but now they are super-xenophobic, they just enslave or kill everyone in the village when they win.

Additionally, there is the god factor as some posters have noticed. Nalnir is the centre-piece of Forluc society and the blatantly evil system is benefiting him in the short term so he has been actively encouraging and supporting the worst excesses of the Forluc as he doesn't have a problem with how evil they are and likes how he benefits from. And while these ways will screw him over in the long run, he isn't that far-sighted, especially as he has a blindspot regarding his own fallibility and how he could potentially not succeed or not be the best.

I might write an info post on Nalnir tomorrow so you guys can understand just how badly he has warped and pushed Forluc society to its current extremes. But for now, I am going to bed.

I really want citation on that.

These were my sources. The Ancient Greeks didn't treat women badly in the exactly the same ways as the Forluc nor did all of them treat women equally badly (Sparta as a lot better than Athens when it came to women rights), but when you remove the Forluc using magic to abuse women, I feel that some of the Ancient Greeks treated women just as badly as the Forluc if in different ways. For example, women in Athens weren't allowed to leave their homes and were treated little better than property or cattle.

Women and Misogyny in Ancient Greek Philosophy
Hipponax & Misogyny in Ancient Greece
Plus Klinker and Manus in the discord, but I don't want to drag them into this so I'm not tagging them.
 
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When you came along and caused a societal crisis for them due to being superior to them, they decided to do what they did last time and effectively doubled down again. While this let them get more numbers out of their economy, it also made it fragile and brittle that any major blow could cause their total collapse. It also made them go from viewing women as being inherently inferior to seeing them little more than being good for breeding and sex as they forced their women to breed and have children to rapidly increase their numbers. They also double-downed on the privileges and rights of their priests and sacred warriors to make them stronger and to improve their military as their priesthood is responsible for their military.
Okay, this is something you should have clarified. That the stupidly extreme views on woman were in reaction to our presence causing a crisis makes the whole thing much more understandable, as well as clarifying you're fully aware of how completely dysfunctional and self-destructive their way of life is, that this isn't a system that's worked well over generations. It also helps explain why they jumped the gun and attacked before they fully raised their armies, this sort of situation must have put unsustainable pressure on their society.
Additionally, there is the god factor as some posters have noticed. Nalnir is the centre-piece of Forluc society and the blatantly evil system is benefiting him in the short term so he has been actively encouraging and supporting the worst excesses of the Forluc as he doesn't have a problem with how evil they are and likes how he benefits from. And while these ways will screw him over in the long run, he isn't that far-sighted, especially as he has a blindspot regarding his own fallibility and how he could potentially not succeed or not be the best.
This is also a factor. Can I ask how exactly they got themselves a 'generic evil god?'
These were my sources. They didn't treat women badly in the exactly the same ways as the Forluc, but when you remove the Forluc using magic to abuse women, I feel that some of the Ancient Greeks treated women just as badly as the Forluc if in different ways.
What?
For example, women in Athens weren't allowed to leave their homes and were treated little better than property or cattle.
What.

Okay, after some research on the matter, it turns out culturally the 'ideal' Athenian woman is supposed to stay in their homes, bear and raise children, and manage the household, and were legally discouraged from economic transactions. A bit further than usual, but nothing out of normal for a pre-industrial civilization. In practice, something like this only happened with the very rich, as in practice poorer citizens couldn't actually afford to cripple themselves like that. They definitely didn't see woman as all property or cattle. You ... might want to investigate your sources a bit more thoroughly in case they might be a bit biased on the history of how men have treated woman.
 
These were my sources. The Ancient Greeks didn't treat women badly in the exactly the same ways as the Forluc nor did all of them treat women equally badly (Sparta as a lot better than Athens when it came to women rights), but when you remove the Forluc using magic to abuse women, I feel that some of the Ancient Greeks treated women just as badly as the Forluc if in different ways. For example, women in Athens weren't allowed to leave their homes and were treated little better than property or cattle.

Women and Misogyny in Ancient Greek Philosophy
Hipponax & Misogyny in Ancient Greece
Plus Klinker and Manus in the discord, but I don't want to drag them into this so I'm not tagging them.
I'm sorry to say, but I find the first source in particular to counteract your claim Greeks had it worse/the same as the Forluc. Their misogyny is hardly close to the same level.
 
This is also a factor. Can I ask how exactly they got themselves a 'generic evil god?'
Doesn't need to be evil. It just needs to evolve in a way that slowly snowballs negative traits due to short term gain.

Like, look at the misogyny. It was formed in part due to our own traits, as a reaction to/counter to our own people. Hell, I imagine that the Daughter's of Urth's presence didn't help either. So their god likely pushed to reinforce the misogynic traits.

But I'd be willing to bet that the Forluc's god is a blunt instrument. The type who likes to use a hammer even when a scalpel may be better. So when he pushes it, it goes much further than it normally would.

But it has multiple short term benefits to doing so. Greater disdain of the Arthyrd, or even better anti-espionage from certain civs. So it's not something to address from a divine PoV. And the mortal issues aren't relevant for another few centuries either, so it just doesn't turn up as something that needs to be addressed.

Now apply that to multiple facets of life.

Their god has a huge influence on their culture, and it goes well beyond what we'd see IRL. Immortality + Religious Fever + Their Personal Goals = Radical Changes that are honestly going to be ahistorical.

And this is all compounded by the mortal's own actions. And from what Osha has said, their own ideas weren't exactly something noble even at the start of all this.
 
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Personally, i don't have anything against Furlocs and they don't seem evil to me. They are just living their life according to their beliefs no matter how bad are they.

If they see that it is inefficient they will change.
 
Vote is closed.
Vote Tally : Chronicles of Nations - Civ Quest - Original | Page 410 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 10243-10345]
##### NetTally 1.9.7
Task: Wonlyn
[X][Wonlyn] Investigate the Caradysh successor states.
No. of Votes: 21
[X][Wonlyn] Seek support from the Boarfolk.
No. of Votes: 10
[X][Wonlyn] Try to vassalise the Colryd Kingdom.
No. of Votes: 9
[X][Wonlyn] Keep Wonlyn at home.
No. of Votes: 2

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Evatine
[X][Evatine] Assault Caermyr. (Evatine's favourite)
No. of Votes: 32
[X][Evatine] Strike at the Forluc lands.
No. of Votes: 1
[X][Evatine] Pull back to prepare for the defence. (Evatine's second favourite)
No. of Votes: 1

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: GA
[X][GA] Gain random magical knowledge advancement. (-1 Temp Econ, -1 Temp Mystic, -1 Temp Culture)
No. of Votes: 16
[X][GA] Unlock the Codified Law Megaproject. (-2 Temp Diplo, -2 Temp Mystic, -2 Temp Culture)
No. of Votes: 16
[X][GA] Unlock the Grand Library Megaproject. (-2 Temp Mystic, -2 Temp Culture)
No. of Votes: 13
[X][GA] Gain random nautical technology advancement. (-1 Temp Diplo, -1 Temp Econ, -1 Temp Mystic)
No. of Votes: 9
[X][GA] Gain random administration technology advancement. (-1 Temp Diplo, -1 Temp Mystic, -1 Temp Culture)
No. of Votes: 9
[X][GA] Unlock the Great Market Place Megaproject. (-2 Temp Diplo, -2 Temp Wealth)
No. of Votes: 7
[X][GA] Unlock religious reforms. (-2 Temp Diplo, -2 Temp Mystic, -2 Temp Culture)
No. of Votes: 3
[X][GA] Improve relations with all neighbours. (-6 Temp Diplo, -1 Temp Mystic, -1 Temp Culture)
No. of Votes: 2
[X][GA] Gain random general technology advancement. (-1 Temp Diplo, -1 Temp Econ, -1 Temp Mystic)
No. of Votes: 2
[X][GA] Gain random social concept advancement. (-1 Temp Diplo, -1 Temp Mystic, -1 Temp Culture)
No. of Votes: 2
[X][GA] Gain a Baby Boom. (-2 Econ, -2 Temp Diplo, -2 Temp Martial)
No. of Votes: 1
[X][GA] Discover a new mine location. (-2 Temp Econ, -2 Temp Martial)
No. of Votes: 1
[X][GA] Upgrade a random Value. (-2 Temp Diplo, -1 Temp Culture, -1 Temp Mystic)
No. of Votes: 1
[X][GA] Gain a random Value. (-2 Temp Diplo, -1 Temp Culture, -1 Temp mystic)
No. of Votes: 1
[X][GA] Gain random military technology advancement. (-1 Temp Econ, -2 Temp Martial,)
No. of Votes: 1
Total No. of Voters: 39
 
Can I ask how exactly they got themselves a 'generic evil god?'


@Citino has the covered the gist of it. It wasn't a 'generic evil god', but one that benefited from methods that resulted in stuff like negative misogynistic and running the economy close to collapse. Furthermore because those methods are giving (short term) benefit and they have yet to suffer (the long term) negative consequences, Nalnir has been pushing the Forluc to be more extreme, using his influence to make them act more extreme and then rewarding the Forluc or at least the Forluc ruling castes with more benefits such as more privileges, power and divine magic.

Furthermore, Nalnir isn't a caring god like the Arthrynite goddesses when it comes to mortal. He is more to Zaranna or the All-Boar where he doesn't care about the well-being of his followers or other mortals, just how much he can benefit from them as a deity. Why should a man care about the fates of insects unless their fates affect him? He isn't apathetic like Zaranna, but Nalnir doesn't consider the well-being of others as being something be worth worrying about on its merits unlike the likes Arthryn.

I'm sorry to say, but I find the first source in particular to counteract your claim Greeks had it worse/the same as the Forluc. Their misogyny is hardly close to the same level.

We'll have to agree to disagree then.
 
@Citino has the covered the gist of it. It wasn't a 'generic evil god', but one that benefited from methods that resulted in stuff like negative misogynistic and running the economy close to collapse. Furthermore because those methods are giving (short term) benefit and they have yet to suffer (the long term) negative consequences, Nalnir has been pushing the Forluc to be more extreme, using his influence to make them act more extreme and then rewarding the Forluc or at least the Forluc ruling castes with more benefits such as more privileges, power and divine magic.

If they're running their economy so close to the ground, all it takes is a famine to cause a death spiral and that long term damage turns into short ones.
 
@Oshha, the GA option tied,
[X][GA] Gain random magical knowledge advancement. (-1 Temp Econ, -1 Temp Mystic, -1 Temp Culture)
No. of Votes: 16
[X][GA] Unlock the Codified Law Megaproject. (-2 Temp Diplo, -2 Temp Mystic, -2 Temp Culture)
No. of Votes: 16

I is the confused.
 
If they're running their economy so close to the ground, all it takes is a famine to cause a death spiral and that long term damage turns into short ones.

Yup.

@Oshha, the GA option tied,
[X][GA] Gain random magical knowledge advancement. (-1 Temp Econ, -1 Temp Mystic, -1 Temp Culture)
No. of Votes: 16
[X][GA] Unlock the Codified Law Megaproject. (-2 Temp Diplo, -2 Temp Mystic, -2 Temp Culture)
No. of Votes: 16

I is the confused.

Codified Law due to a coin flip.
 
If they're running their economy so close to the ground, all it takes is a famine to cause a death spiral and that long term damage turns into short ones.

All it'll take is not winning this war.

Ideologically, the Forluc seem like the type to overextend their resources rather than admit defeat.
 
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Considering the Forluc have mobilised close to 10% of their entire population (there shouldn't be anyway they would have reach 150 000 total pop within 2-3 main turns, even with gods and magic) to kick this war off, I would be surprised if their economy wasn't overheating like crazy. Especially since they are still largely in the Stone Age in terms of tools.

If we keep whacking their armies around, they will have to eventually sue for peace or suffer massive economic and conscription crises, because there is only so much one can do to sustain this level of mobilization (even modern armies in the heyday of conscription had trouble reaching it).
 
Our main challenge is staying alive and present on the battlefield rather than inflicting defeat. I am fine with just dancing around the Forluc and not giving them any chance for a decisive battle.
 
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