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Chronicles of Nations - Civ Quest

Should the world be a Low Fantasy setting?

  • Yes

    Votes: 63 70.0%

  • No

    Votes: 27 30.0%
  • Total voters
    90
  • Poll closed .
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Omegahugger said:
... BREAKING NEWS, BELIEF IN ALL GODDESSES AND OTHER DEITIES HAS NOW BEEN BANNED EVERYWHERE!


Why does being a collection of thoughts and stories given form preclude you from personhood?

Humans, after all, aren't more than a highly organised collection of proteins and strategically arranged chemical imbalances.
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From what we can tell the All-Seeress really WASN'T quite a person, but rather more of an prayer granting machine or animal when we took them in. They didn't have a gender or image at the time, they didn't have a name, just a title and thus the resultant god had very little personality(especially when their most devoted worshippers fought to the death when they didn't need to, removing what was left).

Wyrn's project then, is to remap how she is perceived. First, becoming one of Arthyn's daughters, gaining an appearance, and a gender. Then slowly shifting the stories such that she was perceived as a taciturn, but wise deity, and then building the little quirks and interpersonal interaction which makes her a person.

After all, Wyrn's whole Thing was Personing previously not-Peoples
 
It doesn't matter whether the Gods are good or evil or whatever, they'll all have to go. Only then can mankind be truly free.
 
Basically it is the same as you feeling pain because of loss of someone and instead of overcoming it you are sent by your own parents without your consent to be brainwashed and not feeling that certain emotion anymore.

That way instead of happy family Arthrynite pantheon gives me chills.
Best example to this is Game happy few.
 
For some weird reason, people think emotions are liabilities.

But if they're liabilities, we wouldn't have them.

And we can't get rid of emotions anyway. Our challenge is managing them, not putting them aside for 'rational consideration'.
 
You know, it's utterly interesting to realize that one of our goddesses portfolio gives them the De Facto ability to slowly co-opt defeated, almost dead deities.
 
veekie said:
From what we can tell the All-Seeress really WASN'T quite a person, but rather more of an prayer granting machine or animal when we took them in. They didn't have a gender or image at the time, they didn't have a name, just a title and thus the resultant god had very little personality(especially when their most devoted worshippers fought to the death when they didn't need to, removing what was left).

Wyrn's project then, is to remap how she is perceived. First, becoming one of Arthyn's daughters, gaining an appearance, and a gender. Then slowly shifting the stories such that she was perceived as a taciturn, but wise deity, and then building the little quirks and interpersonal interaction which makes her a person.

After all, Wyrn's whole Thing was Personing previously not-Peoples
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This describes the situation pretty well and probably better than I have except Wyrn and the other goddesses don't quick grasp that their sister wasn't originally a person like the rest of them and just assume that she has some serious disabilities.

Star said:
Basically it is the same as you feeling pain because of loss of someone and instead of overcoming it you are sent by your own parents without your consent to be brainwashed and not feeling that certain emotion anymore.
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I'm pretty sure that is the other way about where the person has congenital analgesia and since it is bad for their health, the rest of the family fixes that disability for them without their consent. In this case, the lack of consent is the bad part and not the fixing of the disability.
 
Oshha said:
I'm pretty sure that is the other way about where the person has congenital analgesia and since it is bad for their health, the rest of the family fixes that disability for them without their consent with the lack of consent being the bad part and not the fixing of the disability.
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The point is truly that All-Seeress is goddess of truth and she cannot be biased, they are pretty much looking at this from human point.
Them doing this should ultimately have negative consequences for our civilization in my opinion. And for All-Seeress in particular as truth in this case will ultimately become corrupted.
 
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Oshha said:
We would have to agree to disagree then. To me, it isn't a matter of someone simply being born different to the norm or a certain standard, but being born lacking something that they should be born with. It is like giving a blind person sight or a deaf person hearing or a paraplegic person the ability to walk. Sure you could argue that you are forcing them to live a certain way by forcing them to see things or to hear things or to have a normal range of movement, but they don't have to use those things. You are just giving them the option to do something that they got denied due to the misfortunate of birth. It isn't like you are changing their skin colour or hair colour due to suit cultural preferences.

Should they have gotten the consent? Yes. Is what they are doing bad? No. They aren't forcing her to think that this thing is good and this think is bad, but giving her a full range of ability to make those decisions herself rather than being forced to use a limited range of ability that she is currently restricted to.

That is my opinion on the matter and you can have a different one if you so wish. For Arthryn, Wyrn and Ymarn, it is concerned family members giving the ability that their disabled relative was born without so they can enjoy life without being restricted.
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It's funny you mention deaf people, because there's a movement within the deaf community that considers attempts to restore hearing as akin to cultural genocide. I don't quite agree with that, but I see where their argument comes from, and it's not nonsensical.

More importantly, they are indeed telling her how to think. Telling you how to think is literally what emotions are all about. It's why they exist. You feel good about something because evolution likes the good thing to happen again. You feel bad about something because the brain wants to tell you to stop doing something. You feel angry at something because some system within your brain thinks that now it is a good time to smash stuff.

Emotions, fundamentally, define how people see the world.

To illustrate. Imagine if your emotions got meddled with. Now, you suddenly feel enormous disgust for something you previously loved doing. Or, alternatively, you know feel pleasure doing something you used to hate. Has the person who meddled with your emotions told you how to think?

veekie said:
From what we can tell the All-Seeress really WASN'T quite a person, but rather more of an prayer granting machine or animal when we took them in. They didn't have a gender or image at the time, they didn't have a name, just a title and thus the resultant god had very little personality(especially when their most devoted worshippers fought to the death when they didn't need to, removing what was left).
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Neat argument.

However, it doesn't indicate that the meddling isn't brainwashing. Rather, it indicates that the person being meddled with was not a person, and thus could be freely brainwashed.
 
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Star said:
The point is truly that All-Seeress is goddess of truth and she cannot be biased, they are pretty much looking at this from human point.
Them doing this should ultimately have negative consequences for our civilization in my opinion. And for All-Seeress in particular as truth in this case will ultimately become corrupted.
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So you're saying that she should be a straw Vulcan?
 
Kiba said:
So you're saying that she should be a straw Vulcan?
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I'm saying that she is a being in her own right and they shouldn't try to forcibly change her.

Take a reverse situation in wich no goddess cannot fell emotion and only one can so the goddesses in order to help her decide to erase her emotions.
Would you find that okay? Just because majority thinks something is okay minority shoud do it? Or better said be forced to do it?
 
10ebbor10 said:
It's funny you mention deaf people, because there's a movement within the deaf community that considers attempts to restore hearing as akin to cultural genocide. I don't quite agree with that, but I see where their argument comes from, and it's not nonsensical.

More importantly, they are indeed telling her how to think. Telling you how to think is literally what emotions are all about. It's why they exist. You feel good about something because evolution likes the good thing to happen again. You feel bad about something because the brain wants to tell you to stop doing something. You feel angry at something because some system within your brain thinks that now it is a good time to smash stuff.

Emotions, fundamentally, define how people see the world.

To illustrate. Imagine if your emotions got meddled with. Now, you suddenly feel enormous disgust for something you previously loved doing. Or, alternatively, you know feel pleasure doing something you used to hate. Has the person who meddled with your emotions told you how to think?



Neat argument.

However, it doesn't indicate that the meddling isn't brainwashing. Rather, it indicates that the person being meddled with was not a person, and thus could be freely brainwashed.
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That isn't a good example in my opinion.

Changing existing emotions means that they have opinions on things at all the change.
Giving someone without emotions emotions is making it so they can feel anything at all, and making them an actual person (or God in this case) instead of an unfeeling robot.

I think @veekie hit the nail on the head with this analogy; it's less that they are changing what exists and more adding in to what is already there. You have a right to call it brainwashing if you want, but I will disagree with you.
 
Raichu1972 said:
That isn't a good example in my opinion.

Changing existing emotions means that they have opinions on things at all the change.
Giving someone without emotions emotions is making it so they can feel anything at all, and making them an actual person (or God in this case) instead of an unfeeling robot.

I think @veekie hit the nail on the head with this analogy; it's less that they are changing what exists and more adding in to what is already there. You have a right to call it brainwashing if you want, but I will disagree with you.
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But it wasn't there All-Seeress was a being that was made that way and they are forcefully changing her without regard for her own opinion and how will it effect her or her domain.

It is basically same as you being born in a world where no one can feel emotions and people deciding that you need to be cured.
 
Star said:
But it wasn't there All-Seeress was a being that was made that way and they are forcefully changing her without regard for her own opinion and how will it effect her or her domain.

It is basically same as you being born in a world where no one can feel emotions and people deciding that you need to be cured.
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The All-Seeress as a concept is something that was changed by the Goddesses my man.

The whole thing of being a woman and a daughter of Arthryn are heavy changes to what was originally a gender less prayer robot, and I didn't see anyone complaining then.

What makes this change so much worse than the many others that have already taken place?
 
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Star said:
But it wasn't there All-Seeress was a being that was made that way and they are forcefully changing her without regard for her own opinion and how will it effect her or her domain.

It is basically same as you being born in a world where no one can feel emotions and people deciding that you need to be cured.
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Pretty sure if you have emotions you would have advantage over people who don't have emotions.
 
Star said:
But it wasn't there All-Seeress was a being that was made that way and they are forcefully changing her without regard for her own opinion and how will it effect her or her domain.

It is basically same as you being born in a world where no one can feel emotions and people deciding that you need to be cured.
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I mean, yeah. I would need to be cured under those circumstances. If there is a world where no-one feels emotions, that's a world where feeling emotions isn't a good thing. Somehow or other people evolved not to. There is a reason for that. Its much like the saying, "If your friends jumped off a cliff, would you?" Yeah probably. My friends are reasonable people, if they are jumping off a cliff without any obvious safety mechanisms? Chances are, there is a really good reason for it. The majority vs the minority is an issue sure, but in cases like this, it doesn't really apply in the way you seem to be implying.
 
jjffjhjf said:
I mean, yeah. I would need to be cured under those circumstances. If there is a world where no-one feels emotions, that's a world where feeling emotions isn't a good thing. Somehow or other people evolved not to. There is a reason for that. Its much like the saying, "If your friends jumped off a cliff, would you?" Yeah probably. My friends are reasonable people, if they are jumping off a cliff without any obvious safety mechanisms? Chances are, there is a really good reason for it. The majority vs the minority is an issue sure, but in cases like this, it doesn't really apply in the way you seem to be implying.
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But it does immply that they might be doing her irreversible damage. This was why i was questioning Arthryn taking her in as her daughter,family is fine and all but the fact is that All-Seeress was born without gender or anything while goddess aren't wich makes her completely different type of existence .
 
Star said:
But it does immply that they might be doing her irreversible damage. This was why i was questioning Arthryn taking her in as her daughter,family is fine and all but the fact is that All-Seeress was born without gender or anything while goddess aren't wich makes her completely different type of existence .
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I mean, yeah it does. An existence that is entirely without fixed form. We could change all of our Goddesses to men if we just changed how we told stories about them. None of these changes are permanent. Because nothing about the Goddesses is permanent.
 
jjffjhjf said:
I mean, yeah it does. An existence that is entirely without fixed form. We could change all of our Goddesses to men if we just changed how we told stories about them. None of these changes are permanent. Because nothing about the Goddesses is permanent.
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Expect that this was not done by her followers like with other gods but by other gods, add to that that it was confirmed that Gods (Arthryn ), especially older ones (like All-Seeress) would resist changes , so it is even more hypocritical for them to do to her something they don't want to be done to them.
 
[X] No (???)

While i voted yes i can't in good conscience support a pantheon like this anymore.
 
Star said:
Expect that this was not done by her followers like with other gods but by other gods, add to that that it was confirmed that Gods (Arthryn ), especially older ones (like All-Seeress) would resist changes , so it is even more hypocritical for them to do to her something they don't want to be done to them.
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I mean, the followers are doing it. That's how those changes are happening, by Wryn influencing the dreams and visions of the priests and artist and storytellers to suggest the changes that bring about the change they want to see in the All-Seerees.
 
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