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Belated Battleships (KanColle) [REHOST]

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TKB17 said:
Ugh. It was late. Let me clarify my post a bit.

Yamato (and to a lesser extent, the other IJN capital ships) remains a cultural icon to this day, is what I meant. Those ships are still a sign of Japan's old empire, and the Yamato at least is identifiable to most in Japan, due mostly to all the media about it.

By contrast, Americans (that I've talked to, at least) who haven't studied naval history would be hard pressed to identify the Iowa's or other, older ships. The ships most Americans see as a sign of power are the Nimitz class carriers, which are much to recent to be summoned. If we're talking purely about summoning based on cultural impact, Japan has the advantage.
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If it's purely about modern cultural impact, I'd almost agree with you. But that would still have Enterprise and Missouri be likely the first ships summoned. One of those nuclear supercarriers you mentioned was named after Enterprise. Hell, Enterprise had an entire goddamn TV series about her, with her name in the title. Missouri starred in a blockbuster movie just recently. Hornet (CV-6) also starred (obviously not "in-person", but still) in a relatively recent blockbuster, too...and Oklahoma, albeit in a less prominent role than Arizona. And then there's Nautilus, who got a nuclear sub named after her (who would go on to become the first ship to traverse the entire North Pole).

And if you asked the average modern Japanese citizen about the ships of World War 2, chances are, they would only be able to name a couple of them (one being Yamato). Hell, the absence of Yamato despite the massive cultural impact she still has on Japan is kind of a gaping hole in your argument.

If we're talking time afloat, my point is that the longer a ship has served the more often they might be to summoning. All those ships we sold post WW II still accumulated time on the waves, possibly making them easier to summon then the CVs and CVEs that were replaced or scrapped much sooner.
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Actually, a lot of the fleet carriers remained in service for a long time. Especially the Essex-class carriers like Hornet (CV-12). Also, Saratoga had a service life comparable to Akagi and Kaga. And then there's, you know, the older battleships that were in service for some 30 years, and the Iowas in service for a really long fucking time. A small number of US submarines were in service for a surprisingly long time, as well. And, IIRC, a bunch of heavy cruisers saw a long period of service. Or how about USS Midway, a Midway-class carrier that was commissioned shortly before the end of WW2, but was in service until 1992, playing a major role in the Gulf and Vietnam wars? Yeah, can you name one Japanese warship that was in commission at some point in WW2, and had a total service life of 47 years?

Also, by ship count, if there's any RNG to summoning a ship you are much less likely to summon a CV rather then, say, a DD. While the amount of CVs, by post war, was indeed large there were a truly massive amount of destroyers and cruisers produced in the same time.
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Okay, but that's true of any major navy at the time. Hell, if anything, BB Japan has far too many battleships and carriers, compared to its much more numerous destroyers, cruisers, sub-chasers/minelayers/etc, and submarines.

By the end of WW2, the USN had had at least 41 fleet carriers in commission--and CV-1 was still in service during WW2. When you consider that many of the US' battleships were not in service by the time WW2 came around, and that the last American BB to be completed was #64 (and the last to be laid down, IIRC, was #66), well...it's pretty even. That would change substantially if you were to look at "in commission during the 20's", but that would rule out Jersey and Washington by a huge margin, leaving two of the three American BBs summoned so far invalid.

I don't really take issue with it, since the desire to avoid character bloat is entirely understandable. I suppose you could mention them being summoned, but serving in other theaters or groups, and leave them to omake/side-story writers to have fun with. But it's too early in the game for that to be important, really. ((But seriously, Old Falling Apart, Oklahoma/Nevada, and Old Swayback when?))

Also, about the battleships being summoned...weren't three of them summoned in this fic? Jersey, Washington, and Arizona? Or am I missing something (like these being separate story lines set across different times)?
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American battleships, yes. I don't know if Ise, Fuso, Yamashiro, and Hyuuga have been summoned yet, on the Japanese side. But they've got the four Kongo sisters, Nagato, Mutsu, and Musashi--seven battleships, plus Akagi and Kaga, two fleet carriers. A total of nine capital ships, in a navy that only ever had roughly 20 to ever see significant service. At least seven of the IJN's 12 battleships.
 
My own two cents about this summoning argument: there isn't an entirely consistent formula as to what kind of ships come back, and any trends you may see are subject to change as the Great Will of the Summonings (aka Our Illustrious Author) desires it.
 
To be fair, the Japanese have been summoning longer and having more success with it. So that's easily understandable, in them having more of their cap ships summoned.

Brits have been doing it nearly as long, and in my current notes...

Dreadnought, Warspite, Barham, Nelson, Rodney, KGV, PoW. And, technically, Agincourt/Erin. But the latter two have gone back to the Turks, so they're not serving in the Royal Navy now. It may seem odd that they have comparatively so many...but then, the Brits had a lot of battleships. At the start of WW2, you've got all five Rs and all five QEs, both Nelson and Rodney, and over the course of the war they would be adding KGV, PoW, Anson, Howe, Duke of York, and Vanguard.

18 battleships in WW2. With those odds, summoning longer and more successfully? Not horribly surprising, in my mind at least. Almost more surprising they haven't summoned more, actually. I mean, they've only gotten Hood, Tiger, Renown and Repulse of their BCs. Australia was summoned in Australia. Agioncourt/Erin had two nations trying to summon them, which is something that would incline them to come back more, IMO.
 
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SaltyWaffles said:
Hornet (CV-6) also starred (obviously not "in-person", but still) in a relatively recent blockbuster.
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Do you mean CV-8 or CV-12?
SaltyWaffles said:
Actually, a lot of the fleet carriers remained in service for a long time. Especially the Essex-class carriers like Hornet (CV-12). Also, Saratoga had a service life comparable to Akagi and Kaga. And then there's, you know, the older battleships that were in service for some 30 years, and the Iowas in service for a really long fucking time. A small number of US submarines were in service for a surprisingly long time, as well. And, IIRC, a bunch of heavy cruisers saw a long period of service. Or how about USS Midway, a Midway-class carrier that was commissioned shortly before the end of WW2, but was in service until 1992, playing a major role in the Gulf and Vietnam wars? Yeah, can you name one Japanese warship that was in commission at some point in WW2, and had a total service life of 47 years?
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A lot of the US fleet carriers hung around for a crazy long time. The Essexs weren't decommissioned until 1991, and the Yorktowns fought their hearts out and then some. American fleet carriers either went down in glory unimaginable, or served as the Fleet's Fist for almost half a century. The old girls have earned their rest. Compare that to Jersey and her sisters. Even if you combine all four of them, I don't think they managed to sink even one Iowa's worth of warship tonnage. They never got to do their thing the first time around.

Sure Washington has a battleship to her name. But that was exceedingly rare for any battlewagon of her era, and it's marred by the casualties and damage she suffered at the hands of Indianapolis shortly afterwards. The battleships have something to proove, the carriers don't.
SaltyWaffles said:
American battleships, yes. I don't know if Ise, Fuso, Yamashiro, and Hyuuga have been summoned yet, on the Japanese side. But they've got the four Kongo sisters, Nagato, Mutsu, and Musashi--seven battleships, plus Akagi and Kaga, two fleet carriers. A total of nine capital ships, in a navy that only ever had roughly 20 to ever see significant service. At least seven of the IJN's 12 battleships.
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I think Old Iron asked to reserve pagoda-chan, but I could be confused. But regardless, don't forget that the Japanese were the very first to figure out that shipgirl summoning was even possible. And, they've been fighting a war on very very unfavorable terms and they've still managed to hold their own.
FelOnyx said:
My own two cents about this summoning argument: there isn't an entirely consistent formula as to what kind of ships come back, and any trends you may see are subject to change as the Great Will of the Summonings (aka Our Illustrious Author) desires it.
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There's actually one more piece of the puzzle left that nobody in-universe has figured out yet, I'll explain more in the next chapter. If you know what you're looking for though, it should be pretty obvious.
 
theJMPer said:
Do you mean CV-8 or CV-12?

A lot of the US fleet carriers hung around for a crazy long time. The Essexs weren't decommissioned until 1991, and the Yorktowns fought their hearts out and then some. American fleet carriers either went down in glory unimaginable, or served as the Fleet's Fist for almost half a century. The old girls have earned their rest. Compare that to Jersey and her sisters. Even if you combine all four of them, I don't think they managed to sink even one Iowa's worth of warship tonnage. They never got to do their thing the first time around.

Sure Washington has a battleship to her name. But that was exceedingly rare for any battlewagon of her era, and it's marred by the casualties and damage she suffered at the hands of Indianapolis shortly afterwards. The battleships have something to proove, the carriers don't.

I think Old Iron asked to reserve pagoda-chan, but I could be confused. But regardless, don't forget that the Japanese were the very first to figure out that shipgirl summoning was even possible. And, they've been fighting a war on very very unfavorable terms and they've still managed to hold their own.

There's actually one more piece of the puzzle left that nobody in-universe has figured out yet, I'll explain more in the next chapter. If you know what you're looking for though, it should be pretty obvious.
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Heh. You make a good point about the whole "battleships that never got to do their thing" bit. I imagine that would make all of the Iowa-class ships just dying to come back and finally get some ship-on-ship action. And I guess that explains why Musashi came back before Yamato did. Although, I suppose that would make Oklahoma next in line, considering Arizona's shown up.
 
Insofar as the carriers go...

While I love Sara to death, the ones most likely to come back at this point are probably Lex and Hornet CV-8. If any American CVs have something to prove, it's those two. Taken down early-war without the chance to do the damage their sisters did. Save the Doolittle Raid on Hornets end. But then, that's marred by her abysmal performance at Midway.

So yeah. If having something to prove helps, those two are the most likely, IMO.
 
Skywalker_T-65 said:
Insofar as the carriers go...

While I love Sara to death, the ones most likely to come back at this point are probably Lex and Hornet CV-8. If any American CVs have something to prove, it's those two. Taken down early-war without the chance to do the damage their sisters did. Save the Doolittle Raid on Hornets end. But then, that's marred by her abysmal performance at Midway.

So yeah. If having something to prove helps, those two are the most likely, IMO.
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I'm not so sure about Hornet. She might not have the same insane list of accomplishments as Enterprise, but neither does any ship before or since. But, Hornet was the hope-bringer. After America was knocked down to her knees by Pearl Harbor, Hornet was the one who stood back up and made god bleed.

I recall watching the first episode of Battle 360. They had an interview with one of E's crewmen, and he went on about how disheartened everyone was after the crushing losses of Pearl. Everyone was mad, everyone was scared, everyone was anxious and frightened as Enterprise sailed up into the North Pacific on a classified mission. Then what should they see steaming out of the dawn's early light but Hornet. Only her silhouette was all wrong. She was carrying planes on her deck. Big planes. Twin-engined planes. Bombers. That was the moment Morale aboard E shot back up.

Enterprise might have finished the fight, but it took Hornet to prove--both to the Japanese and to Americans--that the USN would not be beaten so lightly. It was Hornet who cast the light of hope on America's darkest hour. (Which reminds me, you could probably get a lot of mileage out of exhausted, battle-weary Enterprise finally being relived by the new Yorktown and Hornet.)
Always Late said:
... the amount of sailors who died on her when she went up? She's a BB that was sunk entirely by aircraft without having the chance to fight?
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She's more than that. Yeah, her combat career began and ended with a bomb blowing her magazines apart. But that image stirred America to action.

"Remember the Arizona" was the rallying cry that woke the sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve. "Remember the Arizona" raised up the greatest Navy the oceans had ever seen. Remember, by the time the war was over, 70 percent of all tonnage anywhere sailed under the stars and stripes.

And Arizona still rests in state to this day. She's not a forgotten wreck like Yamato, Musashi, or Bismarck. She's memorialized in Pearl, her sleep is guarded by the mighty rifles of Missouri.
 
Hm. Point.

I also managed to forget to put Wasp in there, since I was typing on my phone. In that regard, Wasp and Lex probably fit better. Wasp never got to show her stuff period, really. She was an aircraft ferry, and got some land attack in and that was...about it. Lex of course has the less than proud distinction of being the first American CV- Langley by this point being a seaplane tender -sunk in War, and sunk by something that shouldn't have done her in. So...yeah. These two would certainly have something to prove.

I would say Ranger as well, since she had an uneventful career for the most part. But then, she survived the war (old and earned her rest) and on top of that, did have relatively vital roles in the Atlantic like covering the Torch landings.

This is all hypothetical of course, since fleet CVs aren't likely to make an appearance any time soon, if at all.
 
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... You know, I just had the oddest image that decades after the Abyssal War, in the Spaceshipgirls line of Omakes, the American CVs begin to show up. The fight is long over so they simply shrug and go about their new lives in peace. Mainly because I just had the image of Enterprise, Hornet (CV-8), Yorktown, and Wasp at the end of a wharf fishing and drinking beers as they relax.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
Plus, Washington has radar and radar-directed fire control.

Also, Washington definitely has more experience than Kirishima; she served throughout the Pacific War, rather than being sunk less than a year into the start of it.
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I don't see how radar fire control has anything to do with their ability to be in command. As far as experience goes, Kirishima served in combat starting from WW1 all the way up to WW2. Most of that was spent as the flag of various battleship divisions. Even ignoring that, Kirishima saw a lot higher operational tempo during her time in WW2 than Wash did due to the high demand of the Kongos. I mean after Guadalcanal, Wash spent most of her time on escort duty and shore bombardment. She was out of service for most of 1944 due to a collision as well. She definitely does have the experience thing won hands down, both as a ship and a kanmusu.

Beyond that though, it would make sense for the Admiral to have made Kirishima the flag for her division. This is a joint military taskforce that has a not insignificant part of Japan's kanmusu force in it. Politically, it'd make sense for one of the leaders of the mixed IJN-USN ships to be a Japanese ship, as a gesture to the US-Japanese military alliance and a way of placating those back in Japan who are probably not all that enthused about seemingly sending all these ships off to the Americans.
 
DarthGamer said:
I don't see how radar fire control has anything to do with their ability to be in command. As far as experience goes, Kirishima served in combat starting from WW1 all the way up to WW2. Most of that was spent as the flag of various battleship divisions. Even ignoring that, Kirishima saw a lot higher operational tempo during her time in WW2 than Wash did due to the high demand of the Kongos. I mean after Guadalcanal, Wash spent most of her time on escort duty and shore bombardment. She was out of service for most of 1944 due to a collision as well. She definitely does have the experience thing won hands down, both as a ship and a kanmusu.

Beyond that though, it would make sense for the Admiral to have made Kirishima the flag for her division. This is a joint military taskforce that has a not insignificant part of Japan's kanmusu force in it. Politically, it'd make sense for one of the leaders of the mixed IJN-USN ships to be a Japanese ship, as a gesture to the US-Japanese military alliance and a way of placating those back in Japan who are probably not all that enthused about seemingly sending all these ships off to the Americans.
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Simple Washington and New Jersey both have better command and control systems. Plus with radar they can get a better picture of the battle field in all weather.
 
Maine would probably be a reluctant lass I think, since the most recent examinations of her case strongly suggest the explosion which destroyed her was cause by a smoldering fire rather than sabotage. That her tragic but accidental loss was used as a rallying cry for war might be rather painful for her. Of course that might be all the more reason for her to feel the need to return and set things straight.
 
Skywalker_T-65 said:
To be fair, the Japanese have been summoning longer and having more success with it. So that's easily understandable, in them having more of their cap ships summoned.

Brits have been doing it nearly as long, and in my current notes...

Dreadnought, Warspite, Barham, Nelson, Rodney, KGV, PoW. And, technically, Agincourt/Erin. But the latter two have gone back to the Turks, so they're not serving in the Royal Navy now. It may seem odd that they have comparatively so many...but then, the Brits had a lot of battleships. At the start of WW2, you've got all five Rs and all five QEs, both Nelson and Rodney, and over the course of the war they would be adding KGV, PoW, Anson, Howe, Duke of York, and Vanguard.

18 battleships in WW2. With those odds, summoning longer and more successfully? Not horribly surprising, in my mind at least. Almost more surprising they haven't summoned more, actually. I mean, they've only gotten Hood, Tiger, Renown and Repulse of their BCs. Australia was summoned in Australia. Agioncourt/Erin had two nations trying to summon them, which is something that would incline them to come back more, IMO.
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They also should have at least 3 or 4 more Fleet Carriers by this point. And yet...
theJMPer said:
Do you mean CV-8 or CV-12?

A lot of the US fleet carriers hung around for a crazy long time. The Essexs weren't decommissioned until 1991, and the Yorktowns fought their hearts out and then some. American fleet carriers either went down in glory unimaginable, or served as the Fleet's Fist for almost half a century. The old girls have earned their rest. Compare that to Jersey and her sisters. Even if you combine all four of them, I don't think they managed to sink even one Iowa's worth of warship tonnage. They never got to do their thing the first time around.

Sure Washington has a battleship to her name. But that was exceedingly rare for any battlewagon of her era, and it's marred by the casualties and damage she suffered at the hands of Indianapolis shortly afterwards. The battleships have something to proove, the carriers don't.

I think Old Iron asked to reserve pagoda-chan, but I could be confused. But regardless, don't forget that the Japanese were the very first to figure out that shipgirl summoning was even possible. And, they've been fighting a war on very very unfavorable terms and they've still managed to hold their own.

There's actually one more piece of the puzzle left that nobody in-universe has figured out yet, I'll explain more in the next chapter. If you know what you're looking for though, it should be pretty obvious.
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Jersey sure as shit has nothing to prove, none of the Iowas do. Not historically, you gave her one in character but historically she has nothing to prove. A service life of nearly 50 years and more medals and stars than any other american ship barring Big E herself. Jersey has the least to prove of any battleship. Yet she was the first one to answer the call.
theJMPer said:
I recall watching the first episode of Battle 360. They had an interview with one of E's crewmen, and he went on about how disheartened everyone was after the crushing losses of Pearl. Everyone was mad, everyone was scared, everyone was anxious and frightened as Enterprise sailed up into the North Pacific on a classified mission. Then what should they see steaming out of the dawn's early light but Hornet. Only her silhouette was all wrong. She was carrying planes on her deck. Big planes. Twin-engined planes. Bombers. That was the moment Morale aboard E shot back up.

Enterprise might have finished the fight, but it took Hornet to prove--both to the Japanese and to Americans--that the USN would not be beaten so lightly. It was Hornet who cast the light of hope on America's darkest hour. (Which reminds me, you could probably get a lot of mileage out of exhausted, battle-weary Enterprise finally being relived by the new Yorktown and Hornet.)
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That crewman was probably exaggerating the Hornet's appearance. The crew spent several hours thinking they were just delivering the bombers, something Enterprise herself had done mere days before Pearl, before Halsey explained the mission.

As far as Hornet proving it though... She was the one who delivered them, because she was the one in dock in Virginia when the plan was conceived. Thats it. Freak coincidence. As such I don't really credit *her* with it. Particularly since, particularly with the Doolittle Raid, she was little more than a mobile airfield. No combat, her planes were actually incapable of fighting back. As opposed to her big sister who was with her all the way to launching them who was carrying fighters and was the one prepared to fight if they were discovered early and had to defend themselves.

Not to diminish Hornet (though... to be honest even if I was trying to do that it wouldn't really be necessary) but the ship isn't what is credited in everyone's head and soul with raising everyone's morale. It's Doolittle, his men, and 16 B-25s.
Old Iron said:
...I should probably be nicer to her.
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Absolutely not. :D
 
In regards Hornet CV-8: For the needs of the Country, the Doolittle Raid was a massive boost. For the sake of Hornet herself, being assigned the mission was probably one of the worst things that could have happened. A completely green crew and air unit really needed all the time it could get training up. Her CAG was a martinet with a swagger stick who was more concerned about the courtesy due an Annapolis graduate and in making his pilots fly parade formation (Which tends to eat up fuel) than in readying the men for combat. Her fighter squadron was not only untested but commanded by a CO who had never had command experience before and who had been stuck behind a desk for the previous three years and had no experience at all in fighters. The scouting and bombing squadrons only fully equipped with monoplane SBDs in March. Ironically, Torpedo 8 was the best trained and led squadron on the ship. The ship's fighter direction also proved sorely lacking as at Santa Cruz, fighter pilots were told to 'intercept bomber on port quarter' rather than being given 'vectors' All the way around, Hornet was green and raw and needed every moment she had training and conducting operations.

Had Saratoga been available, she would have been a better choice for the mission than Hornet. She was a little faster (Every knot of speed generating wind over the flight deck helps when trying to coax a plane never intended to launch off that short a runway) and her flight deck itself was longer and covered more real estate.
 
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Ye'll know Dedication and survivors guilt are powerful reasons to come back for any ship, that is basically what brought NJ back.

PS If USS Guadalcanal came back I can see her going to Chicago and dragging U-505 back as the first german shipgirl.
 
Dingdong said:
Ye'll know Dedication and survivors guilt are powerful reasons to come back for any ship, that is basically what brought NJ back.

PS If USS Guadalcanal came back I can see her going to Chicago and dragging U-505 back as the first german shipgirl.
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The former is true of a lot of ships we probably won't ever see in BBverse and the latter is a character driven reason created specifically for BBverse... and could easily be true of several of the ships we won't see in BBverse.
 
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