Attempting to Fulfil The Plan: ISOT Edition

People's opinions on "chili peppers" are nearly as divided as their opinions on the Americans as a whole. Some people love them, while others are utterly disgusted and have no idea why anyone would eat such a thing. - Plouteus son of Hektor, villager.

I wonder what bizarre culinary monstrosities will result from the heady mix of formerly fast-food addled Americans, Mycenean peasants, and the boatload of newly introduce crops... No doubt the uptimers are relieved that French Fries will soon be available en-masse.

There's an omake idea, actually... street food in the Popular Republic.
 
Okay so general thoughts. Overall I'd say we accomplished what I considered our short term goals. Well not counting for Mycenae Water and Sewage (Stage 1) but we did reasonably well with that. Agriculture wise we accomplished everything we set out to do, a little to well arguably. Lesson learned, if you go overboard on a project Frexia is passionate about, she will go overboard and build a giant Ranch, and a zoo. On the Brightside we can probably just focus on agricultural education next time since well, Animal husbandry is probably good for a while, and we're given out new crops. Most of what's gone out has probably been to Farmers who are rather willing to trust us to an extent, now our goal should be to win over the skeptical.

Iron Production and Water/Sewage are fairly close to done so getting them done next turn should be a snap. Mills and Fortifications are a frustration but nothing we can't overcome.

Probably the biggest issue is Coal. Our situation sucks. We're looking extensive and expensive effort to get low quality coal. Diplomacy is our best way to get around this. Now there's two ways I think we could handle it. One simple and direct and the other more complicated but solves other issues as well.

First option is simply put a lot of effort into opening Diplomacy with Crete, make some sort of deal for their Coal, they have a fair amount of it after all. Not politically popular but relatively quick. Though people will worry that we'll be depending on Crete. Other option, Try to build diplomatic ties with a power further afield that has coal and build up our port. Solves our coal problem and we can start to work on sending boats to Tucson. This admittedly has more points of failure then simply trading with Crete.
 
I say we do diplomacy with Crete. Sure it won't be popular, but it's a much less complicated source of coal, and having non-hostile relations with Crete means we don't have to worry about a two-front war and can focus on fighting New Arizona.

Though I'd like to do that while also building up our port.
 
Last edited:
Coal is really bulky, and via river and sea transport it's several hundred km from the Megalopolis coalfield/Wilsonburg to Mycenae versus just a few dozen from the one you've just discovered to Mycenae. Shaft mining is more expensive than open pit mining but with the much lower transportation costs and also not having to rely on good relations with the people you were at war with a few years ago and who (at least nominally) claim all of your territory as theirs it's still probably a good idea to produce at least a large portion of your own coal.
 
Yeah, ideally we'll want to get some trade for coal going while having our own domestic production.

The problem is our ability to get domestic production going to a significant degree given how we have precisely one (barely and mostly due to low standards) economically viable prospect.
 
Yeah, in the short term I think we're gonna have to bite the bullet and eat the expensive domestic mining. I guess the silver lining there is we'll get some practical experience with more intricate and challenging mining techniques. In the long term I think we're generally going to need to expand to secure a sold domestic coal supply or die; the northern Peloponnese is not going to be able to support a functional worker's state against a Cretan monarchy that's gobbled up Sicily and is drawing resources from colonies throughout the Western Med, let alone a Fully Industrialized Egypt or something equally terrifying. Medium term... well, New Arizona seems to have rolled well for the coal fields west of Kalydon... Maybe we can do a little revolution-exporting, as a treat.
 
In favor of trading with Crete to help with the coal issue, if that ever becomes an option. A trade link should hopefully persuade them to not gang up on us with New Arizona.

On a related matter, what could you say is the strategic aim of the state? Aside from the obvious "Do not die," that is.
 
My personal long-term goal would be knocking over New Arizona and becoming the big mainland Greece power.

Maybe if we get a good enough navy fast enough we can become a decent-ish regional naval power (though I doubt we'll ever beat Crete there) and become Lesbos's protector instead of the Dual Kingdom like more or less happened in canon, or start projecting power into the Ionian and Adriatic Seas. But that's more of a "would be nice" thing.
 
Last edited:
So Central Greece and the Peloponnese? At least that's what I am presuming because anything more sounds like it's going to be a pain governing and administering.

Also, why is Lesbos important? I don't recall anything particularly important about that island.
 
It's not important, which is why it's a "would be nice if it happened" thing rather than a goal I actively want to work for.

It just also happens to be one of the very few other left-wing powers in the world, and even more impressive, isn't a raging trashfire like most nations.
 
Lesbos could also work as a staging ground for expeditions to Tucson, though that is far into the future. Our military is poorly trained and armed militia, I don't think they would survive a visit to Tucson.
 
First option is simply put a lot of effort into opening Diplomacy with Crete, make some sort of deal for their Coal, they have a fair amount of it after all. Not politically popular but relatively quick. Though people will worry that we'll be depending on Crete. Other option, Try to build diplomatic ties with a power further afield that has coal and build up our port. Solves our coal problem and we can start to work on sending boats to Tucson. This admittedly has more points of failure then simply trading with Crete.
Their also the option of just invading the rest of the peloponnese that crete owns it too to get there coal reserves that crete has which sure we could for a short term got some sort of coal deal with him to supplment our own coal reserves whuch has the author said we should not rely on too much. The end of the day though we should absolutely invade them at some point sooner rather than later because they are currently are biggest stragetic/tactial threat since they claim our entire kingdom, want to conquer us and border the vast amount our terriotry giving them great reach into a lot of areas. That even if crete eyes strays from the area they aren't gonna give up there claim to the region. The longer we let them sit there the more powerful they will be able to grow in the region and the harder it is to take/conquer the region. This is not even taking into the account domestic situation where our people/mc likely too and all the factions want to spread the revolution/conquer that. There also the fact peloplnes is more valuable than the new arizona area with all those sweet coal reserves and not even taking account all the other mineral reserves they got down there
 
Last edited:
Invading southern greece would be a bad idea right now and the preparations to make it work would take longer than just finding our own trickle of coal or trading for it. They're a big boy power, if we slip while fighting them our neighbors will pounce.
 
On a related matter, what could you say is the strategic aim of the state? Aside from the obvious "Do not die," that is.
Personally I consider a medium term aim to be liberating New Arizona and properly developing the region, followed by Iolcus.

Longer term, probably deal with USAF Western Command to our Northeast, or at least make ourselves strong enough that Western Command will think twice before messing with us. That will be a major challenge since they're actual military but if we manage, we'd basically have the entire balkans open to us without anyone who could really stop us.

Yes I realize Mini-USSR is quite ambitious but I'm thinking rather long term.

Their also the option of just invading the rest of the peloponnese that crete owns it too to get there coal reserves that crete has which sure we could for a short term got some sort of coal deal with him to supplment our own coal reserves whuch has the author said we should not rely on too much. The end of the day though we should absolutely invade them at some point sooner rather than later because they are currently are biggest stragetic/tactial threat since they claim our entire kingdom, want to conquer us and border the vast amount our terriotry giving them great reach into a lot of areas. That even if crete eyes strays from the area they aren't gonna give up there claim to the region. The longer we let them sit there the more powerful they will be able to grow in the region and the harder it is to take/conquer the region. This is not even taking into the account domestic situation where our people/mc likely too and all the factions want to spread the revolution/conquer that. There also the fact peloplnes is more valuable than the new arizona area with all those sweet coal reserves and not even taking account all the other mineral reserves they got down there
Invading Crete's hold in Achaea would probably be the best option in terms of acquiring resources, if we could pull it off. And the situation has to change a fair bit for us to be able to even consider pulling that off. Crete is at the moment both more populated and more developed then us. Knossos is both more developed then anything we have, it's also the largest city in the region outside of Egypt (And thankfully we're not going with the interpretation that it had a population of 100,000) and it's had Americans in charge for longer then we have, and thus has had more time for uptime projects.

Also they have a navy and we don't. So even if we won, we'd still be getting hammered in trade and have little to no-access to Tucson.
 
Longer term, probably deal with USAF Western Command to our Northeast, or at least make ourselves strong enough that Western Command will think twice before messing with us. That will be a major challenge since they're actual military but if we manage, we'd basically have the entire balkans open to us without anyone who could really stop us.

Yes I realize Mini-USSR is quite ambitious but I'm thinking rather long term.

If we do actually defeat and conquer the Western Command is does seem like it would suit both our geopolitical interests and general ethics to do some kind of campaign of liberation against the far-right governments in Thrace. It seems like they're pretty nasty slave states, and I don't think I need to explain what kind of advantage controlling access to the Black Sea would give us in the long run.

edit: I fully acknowledge that talking about taking the Bosporus at this point may be a case of having eyes larger than my stomach :V
 
Last edited:
So, what are our new priorities in Military? I'm a bit worried about continuing to go hard on Fortifications during the planting and harvesting seasons, since it seems like the sort of thing that's most likely to need to requisition labor from the countryside.
 
Probably crossbows until we have reliable iron production? The backbone of our defenses right now is still angry peasants with crossbows if I understand correctly. In the medium to long term I want to build up a light navy alongside some professional pike and shot formations for expeditionary capabilities/fighting all our asshole uptimer neighbors, but that's going to directly take a lot more gunpowder and iron, plus indirectly take a lot more bureaucrats and state capacity.
 
Last edited:
Yeah, absent a significant domestic iron industry we probably want to stick with crossbows. Maybe bronze cannons alongside that?

Priority-wise I'd say:

Crossbows + Cannons
Melee Weapons
Armor
Arquebuses
Rifles & Incendiary trials

(from most to least important, and assuming we're working on fortifications while rural labor is available.)
 
Are there any particularly effective models of mixing uptimer technology and military theory with downtimer resources that we know of? The slaving assholes all around us obviously conquered their territories somehow but was it with some genius blend of military innovations or are they just leaning on having automatic weapons and terror tactics?

The "modern" model army I've been picturing is line units armed with mixed pike and shot unless something I'm unaware of makes that obsolete. Plus maybe a handful of concentrated uptimer shock troops, but for the line units starting to get people drilled with pointy sticks is something we can start on right away even if the shot is going to take longer to roll out en masse.
 
Last edited:
I believe the New Arizona conquest was very much on having guns and not much else. And was also rather "Sea People" like, where constant expeditions of Americans with guns ended up grinding down the local Achaeans and gutting their warrior class even in the battles where they won.

Edit: Ah, here's what happened in the north.
forums.sufficientvelocity.com

An Age of Rust (In the Shadow of the Old Pueblo Reboot) Original

A Reboot of my Shadow of the Old Pueblo Timeline. The city of Tucson is thrown across time and space, to the Eastern Mediterranean at the height of the Bronze Age. The world fractures and reforges at their arrival as the survivors of Tucson try to build a new life for themselves.
Americans arrived in the Attica region in the Summer of 5 A.E, from the beginning there was bloodshed. Dale Sampson led a few dozen of his friends and family into the region, landing not far from the settlement of Afidnes. The group quickly took over a collection of small coastal villages and set themselves up as the new rulers of the area. Sampson expected the local Wanax to try and take the villages back, only to quickly surrender to the Americans once the overwhelming power of their guns became apparent, unfortunately for Sampson the local nobles were far more determined and clever than he expected. The local Wanax allied with a few other kingdoms, including Athens, together they launched raid after raid on Sampson's towns. Exhausting Sampson's forces and depleting his supply of ammo. The raids, combined with poisoned well water and assassination attempts, forced Sampson to retreat.

This would become a pattern for a few months, a group of Americans would land and almost immediately they'd be attacked by the local Achaeans, killed or forced to retreat, but it couldn't last. Every American killed came at the cost of dozens of Achaean warriors, who were not easily replaced. Fears of American invasion began to be overtaken by fears of decimated warrior-noble class, or worse, becoming weaker than their rivals. The brief moment of unity in Attica would be shattered when the Wanax of Gla made an alliance with the Sampson-Dixon group (Sampson having made an alliance with Edward Dixon, a former regional manager for a hardware company) in late 5 A.E.

Most of 6 A.E and into early 7 A.E would see most of what would have been central Greece dominated by warfare between independent Achaean kingdoms, American-allied kingdoms and new American arrivals. It was a confusing and chaotic time as alliances were formed and almost as quickly dissolving. New arrivals would often attack the nearest fortified settlement, not realizing the kingdom had already made an alliance with an American expedition until they came under small arms fire.

Unlike Mycenae, most of the Expeditions in central Greece were, on average, motivated far less by ideology and far more by dreams of conquest and glory, with many picturing themselves as another Rachel Wilson, conquering a mighty empire for themselves. Notably a few left wing expeditions found themselves attacked by other Americans, with the survivors being forced to flee south towards Mycenae or sailing back east, with most ending up in Lesbos.

The relatively straightforward nature of the American's ambition and their limited numbers and supplies, made it relatively easy for the average Wanax to negotiate with the Americans despite the chaotic warfare that was engulfing the area. Most Wanaxes realized it was relatively easy to make peace with an American expedition by promising them some power within their kingdom, usually secured by having one of the leaders of the Expedition marry into the family of the Wanax, usually by having them marry their son or daughter, or by having one of the sons or daughters of the Expedition's leadership marry a child of the Wanax or another noble. While even at the time most of the nobles realized this was only a temporary solution and a dangerous one at that, these alliances would prove key to the survivorship of many nobles and ruling Wanaxs from Athens (Where the heir to the throne was married to Brenda Melton, a key member of the Melton Expedition) to Iolcus. A few Kingdoms, most notably Pytho (More famously known as Delphi in Classical times), resisted any American alliance or influence, these Kingdoms would quickly find themselves overwhelmed and conquered by Americans and their new found allies.

By 7 A.E, most of Central Greece was under the control of tiny American Statelets and American-aligned kingdoms. This caused most of the fighting to die down as Americans quickly realized every bit of ammo they wasted would weaken their already very unstable power in the region.
Mind, they've improved since then and New Arizona should have an actual trained and equipped army.
 
Last edited:
I think the two key factors in a war against New Arizona is that they have more modern weapons than we do and that they are some flavour of caste/slave state (americans at the top, natives as slave labour). We must develop a doctrine to palliate their weapons advantage and leverage their caste system into our favour.

I don't know much about military doctrine but I do know that tight formations against automatic fire are not a good match. Apart from that, my suggestion is that, when we fight against uptimers, we should take advantage of the fact that modern equipment is a limited resource. We attack them with hit and run tactics to make them waste such resource untill they are finally softened enough to be directly killed.

Taking advantage of their discrimination will also be a balancing act. We don't want to incite racial violence against americans (if moral reasons are not enoguht then lets avoid it because the player character is american), but we also want to create social tension and even violent uprising against a racial caste system. Sometime between now and 20 AE New Arizona has a civil war because there are some americans that think that the myceanean greeks should get some rights (as opposed to all of them), we could also take advantage of that. In short, we should make contact with dissidents, ideologically radicalize them then enable their acts of sabotage against New Arizona.​
 
Yeah, absent a significant domestic iron industry we probably want to stick with crossbows. Maybe bronze cannons alongside that?
You do have around one or two hundred people with basic ironworking knowledge, even if they are usually a lot worse at working with it than they are bronze. There are also literally thousands of miles of pipes in Tucson, even with your issues with getting people to trade with you there are still people willing to give you ones that people have dug up. You're using them to make really basic matchlock firearms, and while those have about the reliability and accuracy you would expect from something made from a pipe getting enough of them isn't too much of a concern for now. You have prototype designs for rifles using both bronze and wrought iron, although those have the issues of needing fairly accurate machining as well as raw materials.

The main reason why crossbows are the main weapon of choice is because they're far more accurate than the guns you're making now, and are also quiet so they won't give away the position of the attacker. As people have pointed out, trying to defeat people who still have modern firearms in open battle isn't a good idea, so most of your doctrine is focused on bleeding them using hit-and-run attacks and making sieges difficult enough that they'll hopefully be forced to retreat eventually. Your incredibly shitty pipe guns do have the advantage of being able to punch through armor much better than crossbows, so are issued to city garrisons to prevent someone from taking the city by storm. You also do have a working machine gun and a few dozen uptime rifles/pistols, although you aren't going to use those if you have any other option because the ammunition is irreplaceable.
 
I think the two key factors in a war against New Arizona is that they have more modern weapons than we do and that they are some flavour of caste/slave state (americans at the top, natives as slave labour). We must develop a doctrine to palliate their weapons advantage and leverage their caste system into our favour.
It's important to note that New Arizona is more "Americans at the Top, Wanaxs and other downtimer elites almost at the top, everyone else as de-facto or actual slave labor". While a lot of Warrior nobles were killed, New Arizona worked hard to make the remaining royals and nobles collabartors.
 
Back
Top