Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Ep name "Window of opportunity".
...
In the middle of my backswing?!
Day of Sozin's Comet

Zuko: "It's over, Azula. You won't be Fire Lord. I am!"

Azula: "Okay" *tosses him the Fire Lord crown*

Zuko: "W-wait... what?! Why do you give it to me so easily?!"

Azula: "Because I want to do this." *proceeds to kiss a dumbfounded Ty Lee who quickly returns the kiss*


Mai: "You miscalculated. I love Zuko more than I fear you... Why are you grinning like an idiot like that?!"

Azula: "Nothing."
 
Ep name "Window of opportunity".
...
In the middle of my backswing?!
One of my favorite episodes.

My favorite scene isn't the funny ones. It's the moment it's pointed out to Teal'c and O'Niell found out they can mess around with no consequences. The light bulb turns on, they look at each other and just march off to good off so seriously. No questions no complaints about wasting time or losing focus. In O'Neill it's not too surprising because how laid back he is. But even Teal'c just immediately chooses to good off.
Because it all shows how deep to the edge of their sanity they are and they are MORE than read to have fun ASAP.
Edit: Reading that it sounds evil. But honestly I didn't mean it that way.
 
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One of my favorite episodes.

My favorite scene isn't the funny ones. It's the moment it's pointed out to Teal'c and O'Niell found out they can mess around with no consequences. The light bulb turns on, they look at each other and just march off to good off so seriously. No questions no complaints about wasting time or losing focus. In O'Neill it's not too surprising because how laid back he is. But even Teal'c just immediately chooses to good off.
Because it all shows how deep to the edge of their sanity they are and they are MORE than read to have fun ASAP.
Edit: Reading that it sounds evil. But honestly I didn't mean it that way.
I disagree with the notion of Daniel explaining to them the opportunity (and their reaction) not being a funny scene.
 
Not that another vote means much at this point but

[X] Iroh. Coward. General. Prince. Once, he was the favoured heir, a legendary firebender, the greatest hero the Fire Nation had known since Sozin—now he's a pathetic, doddering fool who thinks he can make everything right with tears and tea. How did he fall so far? How can he possibly think he's still able to rise?

Excellent quest so far. Getting a close read on a complicated villain is always a great time, and seeing more of Azula in a way that doesn't break her character especially so. A timeloop is kind of a great way to do that, since it allows her character the time it would need to develop to get her to do some of these things and ask these questions without just snapping her out of characterization by changing too quickly without a good reason.
 
Really enjoying this! The dialogue and characterization are top notch, and I appreciate the way you've incorporated this Azula's beliefs and past experiences into the vote options.
 
this is a misnomer

What people commonly understand as sociopathy doesn't exist and you can't be clinically diagnosed with it. Antisocial Personality Disorder isn't sociopathy and is a specific diagnosis with the chief characteristics of poor impulse control and inability to think long-term, rather than any sort of magic neurology switch regarding your empathy.
Didn't the DSM used to separate out ASPD Type I and II, with the latter being an acquired impairment in self-regulation (affecting eg planning) and low-level introspection / stimulus-response (affecting affective empathy and reaction to pain, as the most commonly measured effects), and the former being an inborn instance of very similar symptoms? Sounds a lot like the colloquial definitions of sociopathy and psychopathy.

I'm more a cognitive scientist than a practicing psychiatrist, but as I understand the merger and restructuring of the diagnostic criteria was purely due to clinical irrelevance, rather than any evidence that ASPD I and II were fundamentally not coherent clusters of response-patterns.

(edits to clarify given the context of the last few pages of the thread)
 
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Didn't the DSM used to separate out ASPD Type I and II, with the latter being an acquired impairment in self-regulation (affecting eg planning) and low-level introspection / stimulus-response (affecting affective empathy and reaction to pain, as the most commonly measured effects), and the former being an inborn instance of very similar symptoms? Sounds a lot like the colloquial definitions of sociopathy and psychopathy.

I'm more a cognitive scientist than a practicing psychiatrist, but as I understand the merger and restructuring of the diagnostic criteria was purely due to clinical irrelevance, rather than any evidence that ASPD I and II were fundamentally not coherent clusters of response-patterns.

(edits to clarify given the context of the last few pages of the thread)
I'll probably regret posting this but I'll give it my best shot to break down my thoughts here...

Psychopathy is an extremely fraught topic in modern psychology, in large part because the guy who wrote the books and thus makes all the money off 'criminal psychopathy', Robert Hare, is actively litigious about peers trying to dispute his findings or methodology. It was an entire thing, look up 'forensic psychopathy lawsuit' if you're curious.

Now, while I think Hare is absolutely full of shit, applying the sharpshooter's fallacy, and is simply a symptom of how young and underdeveloped psychology is as a field, I don't have the appropriate degree, let alone doctorate to actually dispute him, beyond noting that his so-called PCL-R has never made it into the DSM or the ICD (I assume this keeps him up at night).

So I'll instead look at the background of it — because the cultural concept of the psychopath predates anything close to modern psychopathology (the study and categorisation of mental disorders, for onlookers). Indeed, one could argue that the cultural concept of the psychopath is what prompted psychopathology to be studied! Which is perhaps why it's been such a persistent bugbear.

Early ideas analogous to the cultural idea of the sociopath or psychopathy, I would say, start with the 19th century Italian idea of the 'born criminal' or Maudsley's (19th-20th century English psychiatrist) concept of the 'moral imbecile' — someone who, while otherwise rational and possessed of their faculties, is not 'enlightened to the higher order of moral intelligence' (paraphrased but he would say it like that).

It is perhaps worth noting that some of the earliest uses of psychopath as a diagnosis were to diagnose 'constitutional psychopathic interiority' —which is to say, you were some kind of societal deviant, such as a homosexual — and autistic children, who were called 'psychopathic children' and Aspergers' Syndrome was originally known as 'autistic psychopathy'. At the time, psychopathy was meant to cover a much broader range of behaviours than is currently assumed, but it has always been more or less targeted at 'undesirable behaviour'. While this does at times include dangerous behaviour, more commonly it was used as a tool to control deviants, delinquents and defiant women.

I'm getting a bit far afield but to summarise...

There was, during the 20th century, a very strong inclination towards pathologising crime as a disease and criminals as sick. No 'right-minded' person would commit crimes, or be a delinquent or any kind of social deviant. This legacy is something psychopathology still struggles to grapple with today and it's that legacy that the pop cultural concept of the sociopath and/or the psychopath comes from, the idea of people who are fundamentally Born Different about relating to people.

That does exist, but it's called autism (among, admittedly, other diagnoses, but that's the most common one). Not ASPD, which by my understanding has a low heritability rate and is highly correlated with 'abusive' or 'broken' homes which is presumed to teach the child faulty risk/reward calculations.

While we're much more open minded today and are more likely to attribute things to environmental factors or free will rather than the pathologisation of morals... people still don't like thinking that people who can do terrible things without remorse are sane. And most serial killers are sane. The labels 'psychopath' and 'sociopath' (they are entirely interchangeable these days colloquially) are, in my eyes, more or less an attempt to 'other' those who do terrible things, to reassure the speaker of the term and the listener who hears it that they, upright, moral folk aren't like them.

I just don't think that's at all true. It's pure cope.
 
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I'm not a practicing psychologist but I do have the degree to back up what Lisafiction is saying. Though she's saying it a lot better than I would :V

i would go further to say that modern psychology mostly rejects the entire idea that "criminality" or "antisocial behaviours" can arise purely from internal or heritable pathologies. Which the big exception of EvoPsych which is all pseudoscientific bunk used to justify regressive politics anyway.
 
If you've read the quest up to this point and you think Azula actually hates Zuko, I give up.
Serious answer: The idea is that Azula would have a problem with Zuko comforting her, not Zuko comforting her.

Joke answer: If you're that much of an only child, I give up.


The real tragedy of those loops is that only Azula benefits of those breaktrhoughs: the last update had Iroh realize how much Azula is lost and deep down similar to Zuko, and both sibbling finally let out that they don't hate each others from the depth of their heart and don't want to kill each other, but come the next loop it's back to square one for everyone but Azula.
From another perspective, the time loops just give Azula a head start on her breakthroughs, and at this point in canon, she definitely had a longer road ahead of her. (Which is at least as true of the quest; Iroh is able to recognize and acknowledge his mistakes after one conversation with Azula, but Azula went through months or years of the same nine days before she realized her friends were friends with her.)


What I'm hoping is that at some point after the catharsis she felt with her stint at Fire Dancing, she realize that she can do absolutely anything she wants and never dared to try without any consequences whatsoever and then goes like O'Neil and Teal'c in that Stargate SG-1 episode with the time loop, doing completely OOC goofy shit culminating with her splashing Ozai with a fruit tart in the face the day of his coronation.
That is the worst possible lesson Azula could learn from this loop. But it would be funny.


-snip-
There was, during the 20th century, a very strong inclination towards pathologising crime as a diseases and criminals as sick. No 'right-minded' person would commit crimes, or be a delinquent or any kind of social deviant. This legacy is something psychopathology still struggles to grapple with today and it's that legacy that the pop cultural concept of the sociopath and/or the psychopath comes from, the idea of people who are fundamentally Born Different about relating to people.
-snip-
While we're much more open minded today and are more likely to attribute things to environmental factors or free will rather than the pathologisation of morals... people still don't like thinking that people who can do terrible things without remorse are sane. And most serial killers are sane. The labels 'psychopath' and 'sociopath' (they are entirely interchangeable these days colloquially) are, in my eyes, more or less an attempt to 'other' those who do terrible things, to reassure the speaker of the term and the listener who hears it that they, upright, moral folk aren't like them.

I just don't think that's at all true. It's pure cope.
There's a kind of person who desperately wants "criminal" to be a kind of guy instead of a pattern of behavior, for it to be due to something innate and not something caused by the society around them. They want to draw a clean line between Normal People and The Bad People. They're called "politicians".

There are plenty of other people who want to think that, of course. But I don't think the idea of Innately Bad People would be nearly so pervasive if it wasn't a useful belief for people with power. And "politicians" is a lot quippier than a nuanced explanation of the social classes which benefit from othering criminals and deviants.
 
That is the worst possible lesson Azula could learn from this loop. But it would be funny.
I actually think that it would be the best lesson Azula could learn from this loop: I've got the feeling since first seeing the cartoon that deep down Azula actually doesn't want the throne of Fire Lord (and the comics confirmed it), that she's actually more at ease doing field work rather than sitting on a throne doing paperwork.
She only "wanted" the throne because that's what's expected of her as Crown Princess (and that's why she was all too happy to have Zuko take the glory of defeating the Avatar, and being the Crown Prince again, well that and that deep deeeeeep down she cares for that dofus), and that's the same for everything she does : she learned to fight and excelled at it because that's what's expected of her, learned leadership (or the tyrannic form of leadership Ozai adheres to) because that's what's expected of her, same for strategy, or tracking. That's why when she finally got the title of Fire Lord, tossed at her like a half-chewed bone after she drove away everyone she cared about in her quest to get it, it felt hollow and made her mentally breakdown.

Which brings the question: what does she wants for herself? Even the canon comics didn't yet brought an answer to it, as even after accepting that she never wanted to become Fire Lord (which helped her mentally enough to make the voices in her head disappear), her goal is still to manipulate Zuko form the shadows so he'll become a ruthless ruler like she thinks one should be, so ironically, she's still living through someone else.

But in this quest, when she tried Fire Dancing, it wasn't because that was expected of her, or because it would give her any tactical or political advantage, she did it because she felt like it (after some probing from Mai and Ty Lee), and lo and behold, she actually enjoyed it, and enjoyed herself for the first time since forever. And I think that figuring out what she truly want for herself after escaping the loops, will be one of the key for breaking from them.
 
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I actually think that it would be the best lesson Azula could learn from this loop: I've got the feeling since first seeing the cartoon that deep down Azula actually doesn't want the throne of Fire Lord (and the comics confirmed it), that she's actually more at ease doing field work rather than sitting on a throne doing paperwork.
The thing is, when I hear "X realizes they can do anything they want in a time loop," self-actualization is pretty low on the list of things I expect them to try.

Maybe, eventually, she'd try something that lets her learn a second possible lesson. But that's probably true without the intermediate "I can do anything I want! Mwahaha!" epiphany.
 
There was literally an entire video game about why subjecting traumatized children to a time loop where they could do anything without lasting consequence is a horrible idea. Frankly, I'm still not entirely sure why Azula has lasted so long without going "fuck it, this loop's a write-off, I'm killing everyone and going on vacation". Sure, Flowey took dozens of loops to get to that point himself, but he cared (or at least wanted to care) about other people at the beginning.

I guess it's a combination of Azula having far less time to do anything (eight days isn't exactly enough time to get to the other side of the world and have a vacation, while Flowey had who-knows-how-long he could have spent playing in a loop), fearing the scrunity of her father (nobody knows that Flowey even exists at the start of the loop), having a clear goal in mind (Flowey did try, but nothing he was able to do was able to fix his parent's relationship, break the Barrier, or restore his emotions or body.), and being more interested in stopping the loops rather than trying to exploit them (Flowey figured out the catalyst for restarting a loop within just a few RESETs, so he decided there was nothing wrong trying to use them to fix things/entertain himself).

Hell, now that I'm thinking about it, Azula's been treating every loop as if it were her last, which is a far more mature outlook than I would have intially expected from a megalomanical teenager.
 
Tbf... Azula doesn't remember much of her earlier loops given she went VERY off the rails (so she may have done that during her mental break).

That said... Azula isn't the worst of protagonist to be in a timeloop (that dubious honour still goes to PMMM Homura, whom went off the rails so spectacularly come the loops end she more of less became the devil)... though a sneak peak at how badly the first few loops went could be interesting...
 
Tbf... Azula doesn't remember much of her earlier loops given she went VERY off the rails (so she may have done that during her mental break).

That said... Azula isn't the worst of protagonist to be in a timeloop (that dubious honour still goes to PMMM Homura, whom went off the rails so spectacularly come the loops end she more of less became the devil)... though a sneak peak at how badly the first few loops went could be interesting...
That why Puella Magi Adfilgo Systema is one of the best quests to ever exist because it somehow resolves the issues of Homura's loops. If you want to find out how, click the link in my signature. (P.S It's a long read tho)
 
Hell, now that I'm thinking about it, Azula's been treating every loop as if it were her last, which is a far more mature outlook than I would have intially expected from a megalomanical teenager.
She's either paranoid about the force she doesn't understand failing on her, overconfident that she'll figure out how to break the loop this time, or extraordinarily stubborn.


That said... Azula isn't the worst of protagonist to be in a timeloop (that dubious honour still goes to PMMM Homura, whom went off the rails so spectacularly come the loops end she more of less became the devil)...
I've never seen the movies, but in the part of PMMM I have seen, Homura's stubbornness/desperation is pretty explicitly a key part of what lets Madoka do the thing in episode 12. So she's a pretty good protagonist to be in that timeloop. (Insofar as she is a protagonist, but that's a nitpick over word choice.)
 
[x] Sozin. The visionary. The genius. The conqueror. Every living person in the world must know his name—and for the last hundred years, most of the dead as well. What led him there? What made him decide to burn the world down, a century before you ever thought the same? And at the end… what did he think of it all?

What Azula really needs is to have the ideological Imperialist Fire Nation thing undermined so she can start to possibly let herself think her father might be wrong. Getting the scoop on Sozin will help with that a lot I think.
 
Which brings the question: what does she wants for herself? Even the canon comics didn't yet brought an answer to it, as even after accepting that she never wanted to become Fire Lord (which helped her mentally enough to make the voices in her head disappear), her goal is still to manipulate Zuko form the shadows so he'll become a ruthless ruler like she thinks one should be, so ironically, she's still living through someone else.
She did't accept that she never wanted to be Fire Lord tho. In the comics she just deluded herself into thinking that instead of being Fire Lord her "destiny" is to turn Zuko into "the Fire Lord she tried to be" so "in a sence, she'll be Fire Lord again". The whole conversation to me looked like a massive cope from her side to be honest. Like she understood that at this point she had little chance to actually usurp the throne from Zuko (without killing him, which at least seems like she doesn't want to do) so she just grasping at straws at this point.
 
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