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Arsonist's Lullaby: An Azula Timeloop Quest

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BoSPaladin said:
He's got decades of experience as a master firebender, and as great as Azula is? She took Ba Sing Se by treachery. Almost every fight we see her in? Small skirmishes, duels, tiny groups of combatants.

Iroh meanwhile has fought in war and was breaking his way inside Ba Sing Se when Lu ten died. A prodigy Azula might be, but her lightning is useless against him, worse than useless. And 10, or even 20 years of firebending training doesn't stack up well against three times as much experience.
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See, I don't think this analysis is accurate. Or rather, I don't think the conclusion is accurate, but you make good points that lead to a different conclusion. Yes, Azula's mostly fought in small skirmishes and duels, while Iroh has been doing war. But this is a duel, not a battle. Iroh's superior ability to command and do logistics is irrelevant here. I'd say that Azula's experience is much more relevant to the specific situation at hand here. It's not a one sided asskicking, basically.

Now why does this matter? Because I'm reasonably certain that a major moment in this quest (IMO a possible end to the time loop) is Azula realizing her father is awful, not to be trusted, and her agni kai'ing him. At which point, the success or failure does matter, as if she wins, what she does with the Fire Nation afterwards also matters. If it's close, we can try again and again, and we'll win. If we get crushed? Then Azula will be convinced again that she can't take on her father.
 
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Abhorsen said:
See, I don't think this analysis is accurate. Or rather, I don't think the conclusion is accurate, but you make good points that lead to a different conclusion. Yes, Azula's mostly fought in small skirmishes and duels, while Iroh has been doing war. But this is a duel, not a battle. Iroh's superior ability to command and do logistics is irrelevant here. I'd say that Azula's experience is much more relevant to the specific situation at hand here. It's not a one sided asskicking, basically.

Now why does this matter? Because I'm reasonably certain that a major moment in this quest (IMO a possible end to the time loop) is Azula realizing her father is awful, not to be trusted, and her agni kai'ing him. At which point, the success or failure does matter, as if she wins, what she does with the Fire Nation afterwards also matters. If it's close, we can try again and again, and we'll win. If we get crushed? Then Azula will be convinced again that she can't take on her father.
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While I feel that Azula is the sort of person to react to the realization that her abusive father shouldn't be listened to with an Agni Kai challenge to prove that she's stronger than him, I also feel that a large part of the toxic mindset that she has to move away from is his idea that might makes right. Thus, while immensely theureupatic and better than status quo, it's also in its own way a vindication of his mindset. The most important part of Azula repudiating her father is not her beating him up in a fight, but the fact that she repudiates him and his ideals at all.
 
somewhatLazy said:
While I feel that Azula is the sort of person to react to the realization that her abusive father shouldn't be listened to with an Agni Kai challenge to prove that she's stronger than him, I also feel that a large part of the toxic mindset that she has to move away from is his idea that might makes right. Thus, while immensely theureupatic and better than status quo, it's also in its own way a vindication of his mindset. The most important part of Azula repudiating her father is not her beating him up in a fight, but the fact that she repudiates him and his ideals at all.
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I think this is a very wrong way at looking at this. Power is power ultimately, what matters is how it is used, and who uses it. If we replaced Azula with an Azula 2.0 who was perfectly moral but otherwise the same, it would be her duty to Agni Kai her father to stop the war. She can't just plead the moral high ground/pacifism when failing to act means a genocide will be attempted.

And Azula will do this for the same reason that Zuko Agni Kai'd her: it's the only way this can end. If the Fire Nation wasn't in the midst of a genocidal war, then sure, maybe some nonviolent thing could be explored. But it is, so it can't.

Also, it's not a vindication of his mindset. Ozai's mindset isn't "might makes right", or even "what's best for the Fire Nation". No, it's "Ozai above all, F the world and everyone in it." He's a textbook narcissist, something Azula, in fact, doesn't seem to be (which is a huge relief, from personal experience a clinically diagnosed sociopath is better than a clinical narcissist). It in fact, utterly invalidates his mindset, as suddenly Ozai lost. Now, yes, it does validate everyone in the fire nation's mindset somewhat, but then, didn't Zuko's?
 
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Abhorsen said:
Now, yes, it does validate everyone in the fire nation's mindset somewhat, but then, didn't Zuko's?
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It should have, but well, he lost, and some crafty water bender beat Azula instead, but you can't exactly have a Firelord Katara, so everyone just kind of plays along? Honestly, the finale's were kind of trash outside Toph and Azula performance.
 
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Abhorsen said:
clinically diagnosed sociopath
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this is a misnomer

What people commonly understand as sociopathy doesn't exist and you can't be clinically diagnosed with it. Antisocial Personality Disorder isn't sociopathy and is a specific diagnosis with the chief characteristics of poor impulse control and inability to think long-term, rather than any sort of magic neurology switch regarding your empathy.
 
stormbringer951 said:
If it's a fight for the leadership of the country that means it's extra important there are rules so people can agree it is fair and legitimate.
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You mean like, rules against foreign interference? I'll admit Azula lost her mind and broke rules first, but so did Zuko in all likelyhood. By no means should the result of that Agni Kai been acknowledged. It's a pretty glaring plot hole.
 
Randino Treviani said:
You mean like, rules against foreign interference? I'll admit Azula lost her mind and broke rules first, but so did Zuko in all likelyhood. By no means should the result of that Agni Kai been acknowledged. It's a pretty glaring plot hole.
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I'm suggesting that from a technical rules POV, if you're disqualified for attacking an audience member, the fight is already over at that point because you are disqualified. What happens afterwards is, from the point of view of adjudicating the bout, just some assholes fighting.

If you jump out of the (metaphorical) ring to attack someone's cornerman or something, your opponent jumps out to try and stop you and you knock them out there, you still are disqualified whether or not you then get your ass beat in a brawl by the other fighter's team.

Needless to say in A:TLA the Katara vs Azula fight is terribly important because the future of the Fire Nation, the world, and also incidentally Zuko's life are at stake.

vladeg01 said:
Also wasn't Katara standing in the ring when that happened. What are the rules usually say when in dangerous sports member of the audience runs into positions what puts them in risk of sustaining injury.
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In real life, they generally get stopped by security before that happens, but otherwise the fight is immediately stopped and they are removed, probably by security or the corners. If a fighter attacked them they would be liable for assault.

We don't know what the definition of a ring is for Agni Kai, or the ruleset because A:TLA, rightly, does not care about any of that or the legal niceties involved so all of this is rationalisation and speculation. But look at the character work.

Azula attacks Katara because in that moment she is starting to believe that she can't win legit, it undermines one of the final pillars of her whole worldview and self-conception, and she reacts. It's not an accident. She also wasn't mad that Katara was there before she started to believe she might not be able to just dab on Zuko.
 
infinityDivided said:
...Now I'm wondering what happened in the remaining 12 or so hours of last loop that Azula didn't want to reflect upon. Surely there would have been something, even if it was just a conversation with her friends.
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I guess that's what "it" has to do with it:
Magery said:
But why are you going to save them this time, Princess Azula?

(What excuse will you use to pretend?)

[ ] Because they can help.
No.
[ ] Because it's how you win.
No.
[ ] Because Zuko wouldn't expect it.
No.

What a stupid question.

You don't need reasons like that.

You're just going to save them because, after everything, they're still your friends.
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Whatever happened there, but Mei and Tai Li seem to have made their choice there and paid for it along with Azula, be it jail or death when they tried to protect her from death.

For example I can well imagine the moment when Azula managed to defeat Airo, but due to the difficult fight she was exhausted and before finishing him... her stupid brother decided to stab her in the back. Well or the Avatar.

The same Tai Li would most likely stand in the path of the punch, and Mei wouldn't just stand there and watch.

The end result was pretty bloody. For everyone.
 
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Alikard310 said:
Whatever happened there, but Mei and Tai Li seem to have made their choice there and paid for it along with Azula, be it jail or death when they tried to protect her from death.

For example I can well imagine the moment when Azula managed to defeat Airo, but due to the difficult fight she was exhausted and before finishing him... her stupid brother decided to stab her in the back, or the Avatar.

The same Tai Li would most likely stand in the path of the punch, and Mei wouldn't just stand there and watch.

The end result was pretty bloody. For everyone.
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I feel like that's a very interesting possibility, but it's also the sort of thing we can assume didn't happen precisely because it would be like, important and substantive? The QM's already laid out his reasoning pretty clearly, loops end onscreen when nothing afterwards matters. "Azula beat Iroh, but then the brother she loves but will kill you with lightning before admitting it tried to kill her in a perfidious backstab, and her friends stepped in and they all suffered and died in a horribly acrimonious falling out that made clear where lines and loyalties and values lie" is the sort of thing that matters, therefore Magery would've written it if it happened, but he didn't, therefore it didn't.
 
Also, like, this kind of "Zuko didn't win! He cheated!" stuff is just... fucking stupid? It's even less valid in this world, where Zuko legit does seem to sometimes win anyway.

Zuko won the Agni Kai. Azula disqualified herself to attack someone not part of the fight, and because Zuko is a good person he got hurt in the process of keeping her from attacking a bystander, and then said person she attacked then kicked her ass.

I too am a fan of Azula, but the idea that this requires frankly kinda thoughtless anti-Zukoism is sorta just weird as hell?
 
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I think Zuko won the honor duel but lost the fight cuz it's not like attacking innocent bystanders was anything new for Azula. And Ozai's rise to power and treatment of Zuko should have made it pretty clear the idea of upholding honor was gilded toilet paper to his father's side of the family by that point. I guess he didn't know about the assassination but still he went into a fight with someone he knew Always Lies and Cheats and was surprised when she cheated.

Ultimately while he was a good person Zuko did fall for the same old tricks during the most important fight of his life and needed to be bailed out by Katara.
 
MinorGryph said:
I think Zuko won the honor duel but lost the fight cuz it's not like attacking innocent bystanders was anything new for Azula. And Ozai's rise to power and treatment of Zuko should have made it pretty clear the idea of upholding honor was gilded toilet paper to his father's side of the family by that point. I guess he didn't know about the assassination but still he went into a fight with someone he knew Always Lies and Cheats and was surprised when she cheated.

Ultimately while he was a good person Zuko did fall for the same old tricks during the most important fight of his life and needed to be bailed out by Katara.
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No? Like, it's hypothetically possible to view it this way, if you intentionally use everything the show is teaching like toilet paper.

Zuko didn't protect Katara because of honor (TM). He protected Katara because he's actually a good person and she's his friend.
 
Lisafication said:
this is a misnomer

What people commonly understand as sociopathy doesn't exist and you can't be clinically diagnosed with it. Antisocial Personality Disorder isn't sociopathy and is a specific diagnosis with the chief characteristics of poor impulse control and inability to think long-term, rather than any sort of magic neurology switch regarding your empathy.
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That's incorrect, lack of empathy is a known major symtpon of APD. I met him. His issue was a lack of empathy. That, and autism. So he was a) not capable of feeling everything other people did, and b) not capable of predicting what others would feel. Hence he was, unlike any other sociopath, very free about sharing that he was a diagnosed sociopath (technically APD, but sociopath is the colloquial term).

Anyway, the guy was great to hang around with other than a few issues. You knew where you stood with him.

In contrast, the unpredictability and unreliability of a narcissist was the worst. You could never have a genuine time with them. Basically, like Ozai but without the political power or bending. Sure, they'd be nice to you, but only because they'd benefit.

The Laurent said:
Also, like, this kind of "Zuko didn't win! He cheated!" stuff is just... fucking stupid? It's even less valid in this world, where Zuko legit does seem to sometimes win anyway.
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Honestly, the key thing about this is that it doesn't matter: might makes right. Because Zuko could claim a win, no matter how tainted, and he had an army behind him, while Azula had gone crazy and kicked out many allies, Zuko won.

This isn't a sport, the opinion on who actually won is political, and so the side with the power wins.
 
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Look fact is Azula's reign as Fire Lord would end after a week when she was found dead after falling down some stairs having landed on a bunch of knives while she was asleep.
 
With regard to whether canon!Azula or Zuko won their Agni Kai: If we're talking in terms of formal rules, Azula tried to attack a spectator instead of fighting Zuko fair and square, that should answer the question then and there. If we're talkimg in terms of coup d'etat, Azula has alienated all possible allies and Zuko has not.

With regard to whether Lullaby~Azula beat Iroh or not: I'm inclined to say that, after a couple dozen loops, she can win individual battles against pretty much everyone except Aang.
On one hand, she's a top-tier firebender, she has the time loop on her side, and there aren't that many people she has to prepare to fight in this time loop. It should be well within her abilities to learn their tricks and tendencies well enough to consistently defeat them. Aang is the exception due to his power, versatility, and Azula probably not fighting him much. (Arguably, Iroh has at least two of those characteristics, plus more experience than Azula and Aang combined, but he's not that powerful and probably accompanies Zuko more often than Aang.)

On the other hand, one of the lessons Azula needs to learn is that violence and threats can't get her what she actually wants. She feels helpless, doomed, trapped in the loop. If Azula was simply failing at violence, she would have an obvious out: Use the time loop to train until she is strong or knowledgeable enough to beat Uncle Iroh and Zuko and Katara and the rest. But she doesn't, which (to me) implies that she's reached a point where she can consistently beat everyone she encounters in the loops, but still loses in the end. She wins every battle but loses the war, and still doesn't understand why, because she's stuck in that Ozai mindset where violence and threats are the only things that matter. And this position requires that she be capable of winning those battles in the first place.
 
Ehh, I'm obviously not that big of a fan of the ship, but I'd be willing to give a fanfiction of it a chance... though I honestly don't see it at all?

Sokka and Zuko have more chemistry than Zuko and Suki. (I also actually kinda like Mai-Zuko in general, so I'm not against that either.)
 
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