I mean, the south bank is noted as a "a good position to hold back any potential Nornish attack," which I don't think would be mentioned if the river could easily be bypassed.
Army of Liberty: a Fantasy Revolutionary Warfare Quest
- Thread starter Photomajig
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Dutch
Bored Spearman of the Wind
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Every river has fords. We know atleast of a big one in the west, north of the plains that the royalists used. Lacking that, pontoon bridges are an option. I don't think we should count on being able to force the enemy into two unbypassable killing grounds.
That's pretty simple. Don't get caught in an initial defensive battle on the north bank.
Use the 6th as a delaying force north of the river to split enemy forces. Target one of the enemy armies to maul, then either swing towards the aid of the 6th in mauling the other or retreat both the 5th and 6th to our defensive positions on the north bank.
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We know for sure that there's a semi-reliable but unbridged major crossing south of Billermund. That's how the royalist Volunteer Army crossed over before Mauvais Plain (and how their remnants escaped afterwards) and it didn't seem to slow them down that much, though von Trotha was unable to use it due to rain. There seems to be an established ferry there.
Franz said:
If we had troops to station there in advance holding it would probably be pretty simple, but we don't really at the moment. A Nornish army that crosses (maybe even build pontoon bridges, if the crossing's suitable for that) would have a bridgehead in a central position where they could strike at either Damterre or Antreville along the Via Peregrina or even make the long overland march towards our position at the bridge.
Force concentration, mostly. In either case (V Army marching to meet an army around the western crossing or V + VI Army attacking the blocking force in the east) we're fighting a non-defensive battle on largely neutral or bad ground, but we'd have Guillory present too in the latter. As long as we have a reasonable chance of defeating whatever blocking force they can leave behind making a western crossing is rsiky, since a significant defeat at our bridgehead would leave that army alone and overextended. That risk of defeat in detail doesn't exist if we're on the south bank, since we'd have to make a contested river crossing.
And if the Nornisch reinforcements are so strong that we don't stand any reasonable chance of launching a successful attack against half their force with both our armies, then it seems like we're seriously overmatched and the choice of deployment is somewhat less important, because the move in either case probably becomes 'buy time until reinforcements arrive'.
Red Rationalist
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So, putting aside that "always attack" is a very flawed strategy, I am talking about an operational bypass at another crossing. If we deploy to the northern bank, how would you deal with the enemy marching to another crossing?
The 6th is also absolutely not ready to attack, if you're proposing that.
I mean, I don't see why Norn would try to split it's force. They have superior strength and need Daurstein for resupply, trying to take the crossing with both armies makes much more sense than trying to blindly lurch into Antréville with no certainty of having a logistical line.
In the case of them splitting up, there are pretty severe issues with trying to catch them alongside the 6th. The 6th has been chronically late at every single turn. The 2 weeks could improve this somewhat if they are put on a harsh drill regime, but trying to fight with them is going to slow us down. To be honest, I actually think it's rather impossible to make any strategic plan right now, without knowing how many armies we would be even facing.
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Yeah, that's what I'm actually hoping for here. Norn splitting their armies despite the threat and forcing us to act wouldn't be ideal with the 6th so raw, but it'd be sorta manageable.
The better scenario is that they decide their only option is to keep their forces together and face the bridgehead head-on, and if they do launch an attack we'll (hopefully) be dug in with earthworks on whatever good position exists near the bridge. That seems like a decent baptism by fire for Guillory's troops, even if they are facing professionals.
edit: as for the second part, they don't really have ground to retreat from the bridge. They'd have to give battle before Engelsburg.
I don't follow. Why would this be a more viable plan with us on the Northern bank? With us on the South bank, going West to meet an enemy army trying to cross there would be faster since we do not have to cross the river to do so.
Any kind of maneuvering required for defeat in detail is easier South of the River in more familiar and friendly territory than North of the River. I feel like some of you are underestimating how slow and ponderous moving off-road is compared to moving on the road, and how it stretches the supply lines. If the plan is to cross the Raoille into hostile territory and try to chase down a Nornish army trying to bypass us on another crossing, that is a recipe for disaster.
Actually, has anyone been keeping track of travel times in this quest? How quickly could we march back to Antreville if needed? Would we be fast enough to intercept a Nornish army trying to use the Wester crossing north of Antreville Von Trotha originally attempted?
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I don't think they can actually afford to bypass us if we're on the North Bank, because what? They're going to risk Entreville or whatnot and leave it wide open? Basically if we're South of the Bank, they know that Entreville is almost certainly safe for the next few weeks, if not months, whereas if we're North of the Bank they have no promises either way.[1]
And to be clear, I say "they know" because they'd be right, since the current suspicion among some in favor of the South Bank is that the Convention has good, valid, and entirely correct reasons to avoid moving past the South Bank (and you explicitly said you would not move past the South Bank unless ordered by the Convention), and therefore I cannot imagine us advancing in such a case in anything except another total victory where we eliminate an entire enemy army (which isn't happening). So they'd be RIGHT to just put a token force in Entreville just in case and otherwise concentrate on beating us while gathering all the troops they could possibly want from the region, knowing that it's not actually under any meaningful threat.
[1] To be clear, I wouldn't advocate an advance on Entreville except in the base of a major shift in circumstances, but they can't let that remain a major risk.
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Red Rationalist
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Do you mean Engelsburg? Antreville is the Arnése city we were told to defend.
Also, it's a fortified city with Trotha's remaining force stationed in it. While his forces are going to be weakened, they are able to put up a defense. If Trotha is put up as a rear guard while the main city advances, it's fortifications will be occupied by something resembling a field army. Meaning we won't take the city by storm, and thus would need to attempt a prolonged siege. They can safely afford to risk us advancing on Engelsburg, since they city will be defended. I don't see this working without having a lot more forces available.
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Honestly, if I were them I'd consider this strategic set of priorities: Send a token, or rather sufficient, force to hold down the river crossing for us, just enough to keep us running scared and digging into a defensive position we're not going to leave, and once they get set up, cannot afford to actually take... and then send the rest of their forces, the overwhelming majority of them, to crush Montilivert, and then once she's defeated and we're still keeping ourselves on the south side of the river and giving up initiative, they can destroy us at their leisure unless we retreat.
The only counter-play I can actually see to that is for us to cross North and confront them before they can get set up. But, like, then where is the evil of going onto the North Bank, then? Presumably we won't do this because the Convention hasn't told us to do it, so even this counterplay is probably ruled out.
Sorry, yeah, I meant Engelsburg, yes.
The only counter-play I can actually see to that is for us to cross North and confront them before they can get set up. But, like, then where is the evil of going onto the North Bank, then? Presumably we won't do this because the Convention hasn't told us to do it, so even this counterplay is probably ruled out.
Sorry, yeah, I meant Engelsburg, yes.
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Red Rationalist
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Ok, why would there number one priority be trying to save Gelle-Musselmond? Putting aside the political issue of having lost Daurstein, I don't think they will have the time to actually save them. Montelivet has already taken Musselmond, with Gelre being less than a weeks distance away. Considering the duchy is named after those two cities, I think they will be surrendering well before reinforcements could come if the next battle isn't lost by the 3rd. Also, they will not be able to get us marching from the Silver Duchy, baring a frankly insane time expenditure.
The Ravoille northern bank and the Silver Duchy are completely different theaters? There is an entire mountain range and deep forest between those areas, which makes any move from our part of the front towards the duchy incredibly difficult and highly unlikely. In order for that to happen, they would need to cross a major river, go onto the Via Peregrina path and march on Damterre, something that takes way more time than 2 weeks.
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If we're on the North bank, we can attack the army right in front of us guarding the path to Engelsburg instead of marching after the other half in the west. A victory there would make holding that western bridgehead untenable because a victorious army within a day of Engelsburg could easily cut their supply lines/lines of retreat that pass through there without even needing to take the city itself. As long as Engelsburg is 100% secure they've got a highway passing right by that western crossing, but if Engelsburg is threatened at all they're cut off.
As for travel times: quick check of previous March posts has Antreville about 6-7 days from Daurstein, and Daurstein's 4-5 days from the river, so a march back to Antreville by road would be 11-12 days. An overland march to Antreville is similar or a little shorter since it's a much more direct route - standing on the Raoille near the border to the west of the bridge was listed as 8-9 days to Antreville. From the western crossing to Antreville looks like a similar length but has the advantage of the Via Peregrina highway for much of its distance. Maybe an army there could threaten Antreville but honestly that's a pretty bold and unsupported move. Heading to Damterre would be moving directly away from us so catching them in that direction would be non-feasible, but that'd also be risky unless they were confident they could break through de Montelivet.
Chimeraguard
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Say, on this note, should being on a Bridge provide bonuses to enemies attacking you instead of penalties? Right now it provides a -20 to melee attacks against units on it and a -10 to ranged. But shouldn't being on a bridge be a disadvantage if you're trying to fight on it? You have to push through a bottleneck and you're forced into a tight formation that can't maneuver, and the average bridge wouldn't provide enough cover to make up for that unless it's been actively fortified.
Like, if there's a unit on a bridge and a unit on plains that are fighting, I feel it should be the unit on the plains that has the upper hand in most cases, all other things being equal.
Dutch
Bored Spearman of the Wind
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Presumably, taking the northern bank will allows to actually deploy outriders to gather recon of enemy movements north of the river. Something that the southern position wouldn't allow. It puts us in a position where we can intervene before or during a river crossing.
If they combine their armies at the Mauvais crossing and make progress is crossing? I'd either send a 6th east down the Waldpfad to threaten the unguarded core territories or use both of our armies to storm Engelsburg, then sweep west (maybe even bypass Engelburg, leave a roadblock and hit the crossing site). If they're attempting a crossing closer to the main bridge? Engage individual armies before they can combine, using the 6th as a screening and delaying force.
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You might have a point with the reinforcement times, but I still don't get how any of this is an answer to, "They pin us, since of course then we'd be the one having to deal with a river crossing, and then they shank us (strategically, I'm not proposing they hold us at the river crossing and then twenty-yards downstream they ford, we could and would stop that)."
The solution to such an attempt would be to cross the river onto the North Bank and confront the enemy before they can get set up, and then go from there, but if we're doing that then what great defensive positions are we getting from setting up on the South Bank? And if you're someone arguing that crossing into the North Bank is needless and dangerous aggression and shouldn't be done without the permission of the Convention, then will you do that at all?
I'm a supporter of the North Bank strategy, but included in this is the possibility of retreating if we're faced with forces we cannot fight, to the South Bank (hence the described defense in depth.) This is something we could manage because we have scouts and we presumably also hold the bridge, so I don't think we can actually be forced into a fight on the North Bank if we're categorically opposed to it.
But if a South Bank strategy turns out to give up a key element and is forced to then move North across the river in order to keep from being pinned down and stabbed to death, then where's the advantage? It'd be giving up the positive of the South Bank (the defensive position) without gaining the positive of the North Bank (the defense in depth and ability to do things like threaten the enemy and scout.)
Because this is, I feel, a good point:
We're going to be considerably more blind if we choose South Bank, which seems like it'd give the enemy an advantage in putting us in a bind.
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This is a cool move I hadn't considered. It's obviously very bold (it'd require either bypassing or rapidly capturing an enemy city and then defeating an army, and screwing up either of those would be disastrous) but if successful it'd serve their war aims quite well. After all, their ultimate goal's Loutharc. Get to Loutharc or close enough to it, topple the Convention, free the King, etc. And Daurstein-Martelnac isn't the only route to Loutharc. Frankly, it's kind of a circuitous one, whereas Gelle-Musselmond offers a nice direct path if you can remove de Montelivet from the picture. If you're able to keep them in the war you can push down the coast, turn inland towards Veyard in the southwest corner of this map, and have a pretty straight shot towards Loutharc (a bit off map further southwest). Obviously other armies would crop up to oppose that push and we could reposition towards that threat, but it'd be some real progress.
Probably not a major major concern, just because that's a level of aggression and faith in maneuver warfare that we might not have to worry about from old-school generals, but it's a cool move for sure.
Red Rationalist
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You can generally see a army across a river and have scouts follow alongside those. Armies are big and rather noisy, and our elves have much better senses than ordinary humans.We would get lower information, but won't leave us blind.
So, there is literally nothing along the Waldpfad. It's barely settled territory mostly consisting of forest. There are no supplies there, no room for manevoure and no important cities to occupy. Going there would achieve nothing. Even if we moved both of our armies and took Engelsburg by storm, then what? Both armies would converge on our exhausted force that is basically encircled without a supply line.
We need time to get ready for offensive actions, our army is nowhere near ready for offensive operations.
I am willing to consider offensive actions when our army is ready for it, meaning if it has higher drill and at least one more infantry unit. So I want us to stick to defensive operations until we have a clear idea of an exploitable weakness or drilled enough troops to actually pull off a defeat in detail strategy.
Dutch
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G-M still has three major cities further north of Gelre. Oostdam, Glassel and Rosenzee. Norn absolutely has time to reinforce G-M.
Red Rationalist
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We don't know those are major cities, and assuming a minor power will absolutely fight on after it's capitals are occupied is a unsafe assumption to make. The duchy isn't particularly fond of Norn in either case, and not a fan of it's cities being destroyed and the countryside getting looted so one King is restored to the throne. There is good reason to believe their war support is limited given their social divisions and divided loyalties.
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What DO we do if it's a tie? Just have her begin going to the river and decide which side we're on after the March actions??
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Could always take up a position in the middle of the river. They'd never see it coming 
…god, that makes me think, having Cephid troops must be so cool. Imagine how different a river looks operationally if you've got this unit of perfect amphibious troops who can just swim across at any useful point. Completely changes the game.
…god, that makes me think, having Cephid troops must be so cool. Imagine how different a river looks operationally if you've got this unit of perfect amphibious troops who can just swim across at any useful point. Completely changes the game.
Hmm, the interesting thing is, how do they keep the gunpowder dry? Or do Cephid amphibious troops not use modern gunpowder-based weaponry?
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The bridge is the easiest way across. The most useful ford is at Dancy, south of Billermund, though it's clearly not reliable in bad weather. I'll mark it on the next map.
There are no large bridges connected to big roads other than the one you're looking at. There are militarily impractical smaller bridges and potential places for pontoon bridges to be built, but you would learn of any attempt to cross on them before the Norns could get a whole army across.
The advantage is already in that a Bridge only allows one Unit passage at a time, and you're likely open to being attacked from three Hexes on the other side. I do feel the penalties may be a bit too much, I'll see about it.
These are not part of Gelle-Musselmond, but are separate Silver Realms. They are in the Nornish orbit, but militarily neutral (mainly because of Ivernia wanting to keep them neutralized). G-M itself has no other large cities.
They float along just below the surface with their kit and rifle held above, or seal them in sailcloth or something else water-resistant for the crossing.
Red Rationalist
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@Photomajig So, a question regarding the coming march action: With recruitment being far more capped regarding of how often we can do it, does recruiting in enemy territory still cost influence? I'm assuming if we would be moving to the river banks, we would no longer recruit in friendly territory.
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[X] March for the Raoille. Daurstein was only the first step of your grand plan. Norn is wide open for the taking. You'll march north, seize the bridge over the Raoille, and...
-[X] And hold the north bank. You'll establish a position on the north bank of the river, seizing perhaps the most important strategic crossing of the front. You can make it hell for the Nornish Army to try and reclaim their beloved natural barrier. The Convention's orders were not to operate north of the Raoille, but they'll have to understand the strategic necessity of a position on the far side. 5 days. 2 Army Actions allowed.
I am... reasonably convinced, that we could just move to the South Bank if we spot an enemy force that we are not confident in facing. This is still a bit of a risk compared to the South Bank but I feel that the better access to Intel will probably make up for it.
-[X] And hold the north bank. You'll establish a position on the north bank of the river, seizing perhaps the most important strategic crossing of the front. You can make it hell for the Nornish Army to try and reclaim their beloved natural barrier. The Convention's orders were not to operate north of the Raoille, but they'll have to understand the strategic necessity of a position on the far side. 5 days. 2 Army Actions allowed.
I am... reasonably convinced, that we could just move to the South Bank if we spot an enemy force that we are not confident in facing. This is still a bit of a risk compared to the South Bank but I feel that the better access to Intel will probably make up for it.
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Cephid have tactical considerations, but I don't think they majorly impact the larger picture.
Being able to have 1 or 2 units cross the units everywhere doesn't really help when it means that you are elite divisions are then stranded without artillery and cavalry support.
I guess they would be useful as a raiding force - move across the river, attack something and if a response comes just go back across the river.
Being able to have 1 or 2 units cross the units everywhere doesn't really help when it means that you are elite divisions are then stranded without artillery and cavalry support.
I guess they would be useful as a raiding force - move across the river, attack something and if a response comes just go back across the river.
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