Army of Liberty: a Fantasy Revolutionary Warfare Quest

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Im not sure which position you mean, but the problem is that if the cavalry needs to spend the next turn moving east, then it cant spend the next turn charging or threathening a charge.
Not really? You can move twice up to a couple of tiles NE of the southern woods and still spend a third action ready charging. Assuming they try to put any units south of the village, you can threaten them quite easily using a ready charge. I can show you once the outline for my movement is finished.
charging NE from the woods is quite dangerous cause thats a long open field. Either you have to move, move, charge, a recipe for dying in the countercharge(including 2 glade guards flanking from the west) or you have to move halfway to prepare, in which case why do the slow start instead of doing a full charge like in my plan?
So, neither of us know exactly where they would be forming the line, but I think it's plausible they will put units SE of the village. The village itself would be a good artillery position since it shoot things out of the woods. Meaning we can move, charge, melee; the exact number of actions as your charge plan. Charging from the woods to being adjacent to the village would be 4 movement in either way. Also, the countercharge from the eastern woods can be intercepted by eastern cavalry decently easily, they don't have a lot of reach from their woods.
Oh, I dont think that the nymphs would go into the woods, cause them going into the woods would be suicide in my plan.
Ok. The woods are still an obstacle, hindering two of your units from charging the centre. Honestly, it would be very helpful if you also drew where you expect the enemy to put their main position, so we check each other's assumptions.
 
Alright, how I would followup from Charge, Cover, Charge deployment..

This will somewhat depend on the enemy positioning, but this plan uses our cavalry to push aggressivly forward and readies a charge, with the infantry moving into wood cover. Since I expect the enemy to set up the artillery in the village centre to overwatch our position, they would logically have to form infantry around it to protect against our cavalry aggression. Based on this, the enemy would end up with infantry units that are about 4 turns away from the woods, meaing we can charge from our covered position. With 2 cavalry units on each flank, we are also quite able to respond to threats.


I'm decently sure this would be the position a artillery heavy army would prefer, since it allows for optimal control of the battlefield.
The basic position of this deployment can also be reconfigured to shift north or east, depending on where the main force of the enemy is. Still, it allows for a highly desireable early melee while the enemy is still busy setting their positions up.

I've also detailed more of my reasoning in this plan post.
[] Plan Charge, Cover, Charge
 
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@Photomajig Question regarding some changed mechanics: Is there any change to how units move if their movement conflicts or do they simply wait as before? Also, is stress damaged instantly to the next morale roll? How does this work with shock checks?
 
Not really? You can move twice up to a couple of tiles NE of the southern woods and still spend a third action ready charging. Assuming they try to put any units south of the village, you can threaten them quite easily using a ready charge. I can show you once the outline for my movement is finished.

The cavalry in my plan arent ready charging, cause moving into the woods takes too much movement. I dont really want to leave the cavalry out of the woods cause then theyll get shot by artillery.

And then the next turn, they have 3 actions to charge, attack, attack which restrtics the enemy from moving into the open or punishes them if they do during turn 2 or they can still move, charge, attack/disenage against units in the village.

I dont think a ready charge is really needed in the east unless you want to threathen for their turn 2.

So, neither of us know exactly where they would be forming the line, but I think it's plausible they will put units SE of the village. The village itself would be a good artillery position since it shoot things out of the woods. Meaning we can move, charge, melee; the exact number of actions as your charge plan. Charging from the woods to being adjacent to the village would be 4 movement in either way. Also, the countercharge from the eastern woods can be intercepted by eastern cavalry decently easily, they don't have a lot of reach from their woods.

I disagree at least for my plan that its plausible for them to put units so of village. That renders them incredibly vulnerable to a move, charge, attack from infantry and also cavalry. Having a slightly more forward position for the artillery is not worth it making the infantry way weaker to a charge, considering they know that we really want to charge them.

Ok. The woods are still an obstacle, hindering two of your units from charging the centre. Honestly, it would be very helpful if you also drew where you expect the enemy to put their main position, so we check each other's assumptions.

The woods arent an obstacle, they are an ideal position to put our infantry in before charging with them after or shoot the units in the villages with our superior shooting in preparation for a charge.

I can draw my possible position for the enemy, itll take a bit tho

This will somewhat depend on the enemy positioning, but this plan uses our cavalry to push aggressivly forward and readies a charge, with the infantry moving into wood cover. Since I expect the enemy to set up the artillery in the village centre to overwatch our position, they would logically have to form infantry around it to protect against our cavalry aggression. Based on this, the enemy would end up with infantry units that are about 4 turns away from the woods, meaing we can charge from our covered position. With 2 cavalry units on each flank, we are also quite able to respond to threats.

Hmm, so you would eat an artillery shot with the cavalry positioned in the open there?

Also did you forgot that we need an additional point of movement for the attack on the charge? In your example only two infantry and the wolf guard can charge one unit, which is a human unit in your example so not a good target. These charging units would then be incredibly exposed to a counterattack. In your outlined example i would not charge that turn and likely have to move-brace the infantry closer.

Im also not sure why you think they will deploy their artillery so far forward. Village tiles dont block firing im pretty sure and the additional range they get here isnt worth it unless they want to shoot into woods. If they position themselves a village tile back they can still cover the open field but can have their defending infantry stay on village tiles to recieve the charge.

TBH im really confused about the cavalry position in the east there in general, if the enemy cavalry is in the east, wont they just charge it?


Hmm, and looking at it, if the enemy moves their units into your proposed formation than all of the infantry in my plan could move, charge, attack except there probably arent enough tiles adjecent to the enemy haha. So my plan would definitely prevent their plan if you are correct in your assuption.

But theyll definitely change it if they see the movement in my plan.

@Photomajig do we deploy one after another or at the same time?
 
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Also did you forgot that we need an additional point of movement for the attack on the charge? In your example only two infantry and the wolf guard can charge one unit, which is a human unit in your example so not a good target. These charging units would then be incredibly exposed to a counterattack. In your outlined example i would not charge that turn and likely have to move-brace the infantry closer.
I can't find any rule stating that. Charging as I understands requires you to move up to the tile you are attacking and pay the movement costs for moving into the tile. If that isn't the case, could you point me towards the rule I missed?
I disagree at least for my plan that its plausible for them to put units so of village. That renders them incredibly vulnerable to a move, charge, attack from infantry and also cavalry. Having a slightly more forward position for the artillery is not worth it making the infantry way weaker to a charge, considering they know that we really want to charge them.
Then please present your thoughts on where they would actually be. It is difficult to discuss your proposal when I have no idea where the enemy position would even form according to you.

So, I have several reasons for thinking they will be at least this far ahead. Aside from the artillery position, the update also details the Ivernian forces will be on the attack, since they are otherwise sieged and destroyed by Arné reinforcements over a course of weeks. I don't see how you would conduct an offensive without any forward positioning of your units, especially when you want to use your artillery for shooting at our cover.
Im also not sure why you think they will deploy their artillery so far forward. Village tiles dont block firing im pretty sure and the additional range they get here isnt worth it unless they want to shoot into woods. If they position themselves a village tile back they can still cover the open field but can have their defending infantry stay on village tiles to recieve the charge.
It's possible, though that would leave a gap in their formation with the nymphs up north and with the coast in the east. The position you propose would leave rear gaps the artillery could charge into. If they are one tile back, a charge is still possible if we forgo the second melee attack, or if we reposition more of our infantry into the southern woods during a turn.
TBH im really confused about the cavalry position in the east there in general, if the enemy cavalry is in the east, wont they just charge it?
That is something I threw in more to demonstrate the maximum distance the 3rd Cuir. could travel. You could go just N of the woods with the second movement order and replace the third one with a ready charge. Or go further south, ready to swing at the eastern portion in their front. I plan to adjust that part as we become more aware of the enemy position. But you're right, the exact movement here wouldn't be good.

In regards to the enemy cavalry: I don't think a T1 charge is likely based on low battlefield awareness at the start, plus the danger of being trapped in melee. They won't know where our cavalry is first and a cavalry on cavalry engagement for them is undesireable, due to exhausting their interception force.

The woods arent an obstacle, they are an ideal position to put our infantry in before charging with them after or shoot the units in the villages with our superior shooting in preparation for a charge.
So I think this a bad idea for multiple reasons. If I understand your basic plan correctly, you want to first move the units into cover, then charge. This slows the offensive down by a turn and gives the enemy time for ready fire for their artillery units. It doesn't matter if they are in cover at the end of a turn if the enemy can simply ready fire them on the way there. Going into the woods would also leave us vulnerable to a nymph countercharge on their turn after, who can (charge, melee, melee) with advantage in the woods due to needing just one movement for woods. I don't think staying in the woods for a turn is great idea for those reasons.
 
I can't find any rule stating that. Charging as I understands requires you to move up to the tile you are attacking and pay the movement costs for moving into the tile. If that isn't the case, could you point me towards the rule I missed?

Oh wait sorry, I was thinking about charge>attack. Most of the infantry can charge, but cant attack after that charge in your plan compared to mine. Do you think we can actually win a charge from long range with only a charge? the units thats not charged by the wolf guard only gets two rolls per attacker and i dont think we can reliably rout them with 4 morale rolls, especially if they brace.

It's possible, though that would leave a gap in their formation with the nymphs up north and with the coast in the east. The position you propose would leave rear gaps the artillery could charge into. If they are one tile back, a charge is still possible if we forgo the second melee attack, or if we reposition more of our infantry into the southern woods during a turn.

Im not sure how that would work. If they position deeper into the peninsula, they will have less space to cover with their infantry, cause it narrows down, not gets bigger.

im making the possible enemy positioning atm
 
Oh wait sorry, I was thinking about charge>attack. Most of the infantry can charge, but cant attack after that charge in your plan compared to mine. Do you think we can actually win a charge from long range with only a charge? the units thats not charged by the wolf guard only gets two rolls per attacker and i dont think we can reliably rout them with 4 morale rolls, especially if they brace.
It depends on a couple of things. So, bracing does not actually matter to (racial trait), who would be doing the bulk of charging. My basic idea is defeat in detail, breaking a point in their line rather than trying to break the line as a whole. Let's say we allocate 2 hobs to charging one unit, without melee. We get 2 advantage roll, at +1 wounding. Average damage is 15, with a 54% of at least 150 casualties. Let's say the enemy infantry is at +7. So we get 2*2 morale checks (charge, charge), a -1 to morale from casualties and a fifth at either single or double disadvantage.

On a table we get the following stress buildup:

Start: 1d20+7-1
  1. 1d20+6 => 16.5; 1.5 stress
  2. 1d20+4.5=>16; 2 stress
  3. 1d20+2.5=> 13.5; 3 stress
  4. 1d20-1 => 9.5; 5 stress
  5. lowest of 3d20-6; 66% of routing/ lowest 1d20-6; 50% of routing
So, there obviously a lot of uncertainty in those values, it depends on the exact morale bonus of the enemy unit, CO traits, luck and if the enemy braces. But I think a long-range charge is almost enough to rout a unit, that unit just needs a bit of softening from earlier cavalry charges or an artillery attack. The key here is charge concentration, once we rout a single high-value target momentum is on our side, which would give us +3 for morale tests and the enemy -3. Enemy units also suffer a morale test from routing, making them accumulate stress. And once we get into the melee, our three melee attacks can hit them harder while the enemy artillery can't shoot us. We bind their infantry, can plausibly achieve local superiority and can further charge and flank with our own cavalry.
 
@Photomajig Question regarding some changed mechanics: Is there any change to how units move if their movement conflicts or do they simply wait as before? Also, is stress damaged instantly to the next morale roll? How does this work with shock checks?

You can have them move after one another in any order you like.

In this rules iteration, Stress applies immediately in any following Morale Checks. So if you trigger two Morale Checks at once and get 1 Stress from the first, that Stress is applied to the second.

@Photomajig do we deploy one after another or at the same time?

At the same time.

If I understand correctly, your plans include a Move x2 & Ready Charge. This is not possible. Ready Charge has been superseded by the broader Ready Action Order, which delays all your actions to the enemy's turn. You cannot use part of your AP on your turn and Ready part of it.

This could be changed based on how it feels in this battle, mind, but right now I'd like to continue with this version of the new rules.
 


This is the proposed enemy formation by you, but i dont think they will take it at least in reaction to my plan.

It would mean that they have exposed artillery which gets killed by our cavalry (red arrows) and it means that we can mess them up very bad with charge>attack

You can have them move after one another in any order you like.

In this rules iteration, Stress applies immediately in any following Morale Checks. So if you trigger two Morale Checks at once and get 1 Stress from the first, that Stress is applied to the second.

Question. If we have three cavalry, could we have one cavalry charge in, disengage, the second cavalry charge in, disengage, third cavalry charge in disengage for three charges in a turn on the same guy?

At the same time.

If I understand correctly, your plans include a Move x2 & Ready Charge. This is not possible. Ready Charge has been superseded by the broader Ready Action Order, which delays all your actions to the enemy's turn. You cannot use part of your AP on your turn and Ready part of it.

This could be changed based on how it feels in this battle, mind, but right now I'd like to continue with this version of the new rules.

Hmm, that changes stuff quite a bit, i think we need a different plan then
 
Hmm, the discussion was a bit hard to follow, but did I understand correctly that @Red Rationalist is advocating an immediate cavalry charge, while @NSchwerte proposes moving our infantry units east into cover of the woods and then charging the enemy on turn 2?

I would prefer the latter, since charging with cavalry without having our infantry ready to immediately support the cavalry push feels risky?
 
Hmm, a question for @Photomajig. What are the consequences of victory or defeat in this scenario? Since this is all happening in Durand's imagination, are there any consequences for victory or defeat (or achieveing the secondary objective vs not?) Obviously we want to try and win regardless, but this might in general be a good place to experiment with the new system if a defeat or failure to achieve a secondary objective won't cause issues in the upcoming battle.
 
Hmm, the discussion was a bit hard to follow, but did I understand correctly that @Red Rationalist is advocating an immediate cavalry charge, while @NSchwerte proposes moving our infantry units up into cover of the woods and then charging the enemy on turn 2?

I would prefer the latter, since charging with cavalry without having our infantry ready to immediately support the cavalry push feels risky?
No, Nschwerte wanted to move our infantry one tile out of the woods, while I wanted to keep them into the woods and charge on T2. I believe we are both in favour of an early cavalry attack, though that is likely not feasible on T1 on account of spotting not reaching the other's deployment zone.

To be a bit more accurate: I proposed the illegal order (2*Move, Ready Charge) for 2 cavalry units which we both considered the best move. That was before it was explained to us as illegal. So disregard the northern cavalry position, we would be reconsidering those somewhat.

You can view their outline of a plan here
Alright my deployment plan with likely first turn movement, though that is subject to enemy deplyoment of course and i havent assigned the exact units yet.
and mine here.
Alright, how I would followup from Charge, Cover, Charge deployment..
I'm sorry that this conversation is hard to follow. It sometimes goes this way when there are just 2 people talking with few visual aids.
 
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Yeah, the disagreement was mostly about having the infantry in the woods for cover from artillery or having them out of the woods, resulting in no cover but a stronger charge the next turn.

We are both looking at using the threat or actual charge of both cavalry and infantry to attack with all forces very early into this battle, either turn 2 or turn 3, with positioning being mostly around how to do that battle.

Though with photos clarification we do need to rework our plans cause we don't get to deny the woods for pretty much free.

Unfortunately I was busy until now and need to sleep now :/


We also disagree on how exactly the enemy will position but I don't think that's will be extremely relevant
 
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No, Nschwerte wanted to move our infantry one tile out of the woods, while I wanted to keep them into the woods and charge on T2. I believe we are both in favour of an early cavalry attack, though that is likely not feasible on T1 on account of spotting not reaching the other's deployment zone.
Oh OK. If I did not completely misunderstand, there was talk of a T1 charge at some point, right? But it looks like that discussion was outdated.

Anyway, I do agree with you on keeping the infantry in the woods and charging T2. Something like that was always my initial gameplan, move to the edge of the woods to deny them to the enemy, then charge, ideally once the enemy enters the open fields east of the woods.

No need for apologies on the discussion being a bit difficult to follow, I have also had a busy day and been unable to actually sit down with a map which contributes.
 
There is no realistic circumstances where the enemy enters our woods. Being in the woods is about cover from artillery

Day 1 charge to secure the 2 wood tiles would probably mean that we lose 2 cavalry units for it, which is likely not a worthwhile trade. We though we could still contest with ready charges, but it's likely we'll just have to bypass them instead
 
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There is no realistic circumstances where the enemy enters our woods. Being in the woods is about cover from artillery
I would prioritize cover + conceleament for our units over a stronger charge here. My reasoning is that I expect the opponent to be reasonably aggressive and come to us, so we can likely counter charge them at close range anyway. Even if that fails, we don't have to actually rout them instantly on the charge. Getting our infantry into melee protects our units from their artillery, which is the important thing.
 
Hmm, a question for @Photomajig. What are the consequences of victory or defeat in this scenario? Since this is all happening in Durand's imagination, are there any consequences for victory or defeat (or achieveing the secondary objective vs not?) Obviously we want to try and win regardless, but this might in general be a good place to experiment with the new system if a defeat or failure to achieve a secondary objective won't cause issues in the upcoming battle.

It's purely a what-if scenario happening inside Durand's head. There are no consequences of that sort, only that Durand will feel annoyed if you lose and she has to admit that she can't figure out a way to win it after all.

Would you all like me to extend the voting period, by the way? Seems that there's not a whole lot of actual voting happening yet!
 
[X] Plan Charge, Cover, Charge

I wasn't sure if a valid plan (with respect to ready actions) has been made yet, but I do like this plan with the battlefield control and cavalry everywhere after t1. I think with the new rules, it's going to go excellent and it should give a good look into enemy reactivity with 3AP turns. I can't imagine that Ivernia would decide to take the offensive then wait out the first turn with ready actions. We might get half our cavalry shot to pieces on the second turn, but they're elves so they get better and the infantry might be able to charge in by then.

I wasn't feeling too good about this battle until I realized that the new rules seem to have greatly strengthened melee and weakened shooting. My first thoughts were to retreat and wait for the 80,000ish meatshields to grind them down (how much powder and shot could they have possibly brought with them) instead of risking elites and commanders, but that's probably not a very Arnese King move.
 
It's purely a what-if scenario happening inside Durand's head. There are no consequences of that sort, only that Durand will feel annoyed if you lose and she has to admit that she can't figure out a way to win it after all.

Would you all like me to extend the voting period, by the way? Seems that there's not a whole lot of actual voting happening yet!
I think an extension would be fine in order have enough time so people can get their votes in.
 
[X] Plan Charge, Cover, Charge

I wasn't sure if a valid plan (with respect to ready actions) has been made yet, but I do like this plan with the battlefield control and cavalry everywhere after t1. I think with the new rules, it's going to go excellent and it should give a good look into enemy reactivity with 3AP turns. I can't imagine that Ivernia would decide to take the offensive then wait out the first turn with ready actions. We might get half our cavalry shot to pieces on the second turn, but they're elves so they get better and the infantry might be able to charge in by then.

I wasn't feeling too good about this battle until I realized that the new rules seem to have greatly strengthened melee and weakened shooting. My first thoughts were to retreat and wait for the 80,000ish meatshields to grind them down (how much powder and shot could they have possibly brought with them) instead of risking elites and commanders, but that's probably not a very Arnese King move.
So a quick explanation: The content of the vote on where we put each unit in our deployment zone is perfectly valid. But the discussion about first turn moves is also strongly linked to it (how you deploy determines how you can move your units) and is necessary for understanding the broader reasoning of why units are where they are. You can branch off from a different persons deployment plan, but it is more difficult. So I consider it good form to actually draw where we would put units based on this deployment plan, though that is also somewhat time intensive.

With that being said I don't think there is any issue with the cavalry there. Even curassiers can easily reposition themselves 8 tiles or so while still charging as a last action, so we can tweak their position after the fact. Right now I'm thinking to put them just E of the northern forest, so they are prepared for a charge and double disengage.
 
Hmmm, come to think of it plan making might be a bit beginner unfriendly when it comes to the visual part. i think I have a way of simplifying this:

I could share the inkscape svg file with some layers I set up at the start, this would probably reduce the effort in plan making for others considerably. A prior post about linking to your own soundcloud indicates it is ok to link something you uploaded, so it seems firmly rules compliant. Would people be interested in me sharing my SVG file after I'm done? It is a pretty good way to illustrate discussion points if you're somewhat proficient in inkscape.
 
[X] Plan Charge, Cover, Charge

I don't think any plan I would make would be that different and tbh our disagreements mostly come from the first turn anyway, where we would need to react to the enemy.

Doing a seperate plan for like 3 different deployments and trying to change votes really isn't worth it.
 
Yeah, the deployment zone might just be too small for any significant planning differences. There are only 3 tiles left empty in the back and the only thing that really matters is getting the cavalry close to a good line of movement.
 
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