I think the issue is a combination of this (especially for magical materials), and the fact that basic things for organic life like water and carbohydrates are not native to Autochthonia, being an entirely machine oriented planet.
Alchemical Solutions [Worm/Exalted] Thread 18: Ravaging Rapscallions Rapidly Regret Regular Rampages
- Thread starter Gromweld
- Start date
FunkyEntropy
Occasionally insightful, possibly grumpy
- Location
- Los Angeles
Tenchifew isn't new to this, and should know better than to take other posters for granted. I know he participates in Panopticon Quest, where a week or so ago someone just got chewed out for not thinking before they post. Same principle applies here. If someone tells you that something has already been discussed, you can at the very least take a minute or two to look it up. I checked, and simply putting "Panacea unworthy" in the search box is enough to pull up two separate threads where this gets discussed.
Yes, I look like a bit of a dick by using a snippy tone, but I've found that bluntness can get quite positive results. I came down hard on @landcollector back when we on SB for trying to talk about Exalted without reading any of the source material and you know what happened? He got the books. He read up.
He made a good faith effort, and for that he earned my respect.
Scify
It always starts with a lighthouse.
Not quite, on the first part. My point was more that, as I understand your argument and the way these sorts of things work in Exalted, we'd be inducing a personality change in someone very quickly. We, both as the players and as EOA, know that there's no UMI involved, but other people don't, and we've seen a fair amount of evidence that the higher-ups aren't entirely buying our story and are wary of us.
Partly that, and partly because the setting is fascinating to me.
Unless it's outright mind control used directly to commit a crime it's legal.
We have mind influencing Thinkers doing much worse things the same way and getting away with it in our own Protectorate branch. Glory Girl's aura is a known factor.
People really need to keep the fanon thing about mental influence being automatically a problem to fanon. Canary had a career based completely around using that power to make people enjoy themselves, Glory Girl causally makes everyone around her be in awe with her, and was a greatly respected hero. Gallant has a very obvious emotion beam and nobody considers it a problem.
Tattletale, Cherish, Heartbreaker and Simurgh are treated like bombs because they are enemies of the PRT with a powerful ability, not because they can screw with the mind. They only get extra complicated measures because their powers produce extra complicated situations.
Canary didn't get Birdcaged for using mind control, she got it for using mind control to commit aggravated assault.
Here, we have Erasmus using his power to seduce people just by being superhumanly good at socials, and he only got a slap on the wrist.
Last edited:
Next vote, we need to figure out how to get Virtue channels, as this is going to be one of those we need everything we can get.
Valor, Compassion, and Conviction.
If we focus on Compassion Virtues, we'll protect all our forces, and hopefully whittle down the S9 so that by the time we don't have enough to protect them, we can use Valor or Conviction to destroy our enemies.
Valor, Compassion, and Conviction.
If we focus on Compassion Virtues, we'll protect all our forces, and hopefully whittle down the S9 so that by the time we don't have enough to protect them, we can use Valor or Conviction to destroy our enemies.
sainen
Elder Lich
we could have had a Conviction channel this round but the price was too high
Yeah, and didn't think about Compassion ones until too late, but fighting the S9 makes Valor a possibility as well.
Compassion should be good if we try to protect everyone, Conviction if we sacrifice people we care about, and Valor if we try to kill all the S9. Compassion should be best.
- Location
- NM
Technically, she was birdcaged as an example/warning to other masters. It wasn't really anything she did. At worst she'd get a manslaughter charge, or whatever the parahuman equivalent is, and get recruited into the Protectorate on probation (actual prison would be a bad idea, someone would break her out and force her to become a villain). She only ended up in the birdcage because someone wanted to crack down on Masters and used her as an example, intentionally screwing with her trial.
So?
People do this without parahuman powers.
Armsmaster became Defiant in about a month without anyone raising alarm at the changes in his motivations, despite his only regular contact during that time being a known parahuman.
They are sceptical of our claims without hard proof, but there is no suggestion that they are actually suspicious of our veracity.
If anyone considered us a possibly hostile human-controlling Master, we would not be allowed near people like Legend.
Nor would we have been given tacit permission to go ahead with Marrow's Exaltation if it was thought she was under the influence.
Oh certainly, if a PRT faction was feeling paranoid there are measures that could have been taken without our knowledge.
Our powers have been re-evaluated to establish baselines.
Armsmaster and Miss Militia could have been under discreet checkup for any Master/Stranger effects during the month of separation, and a paranoid soul would have had Marrow evaluated before
But all we have displayed is growing human expertise, not even Erasmus-level social manipulation.
The fact that we were allowed access to the Wards mid-week during our confinement suggests that noone in any position of power takes that suggestion seriously.
Also this.
Can I get a citation for this?
Best I can tell, Canary was a garden variety miscarriage of justice; they happen IRL, even to minor celebrities.
And no one was willing to expend the political capital to go to bat for a concert singer.
Fanon seems to have exaggerated multiple speculative theories of the reasoning behind Canary's railroading into some big conspiracy framed by the PRT to use her as an example.
I mean, given that it was explicit PRT policy to encourage Rogues like Canary, her trial would hardly have been in the PRT interests.
And sending her to jail on a disproportionate sentence for aggravated assault would simply incentivise neutral parahumans to join gangs for protection, instead of going rogue.
Hell, Assault used to be a breakout specialist.
Given the revolving door nature of Earth Bet prisons, the only lesson to be drawn from Canary's imprisonment is that deliberate crime pays.
And to keep a secret identity.
- Location
- NM
https://parahumans.wordpress.com/2012/01/14/interlude-6/
Wildbow said:
Not directly stated, but the person running the birdcage explicitly stated to several people that she shouldn't have been there. I'm honestly not sure what the real life equivalent would be. So yeah, it's probably, at least in some part, fanon. But a "garden variety miscarriage of justice" doesn't really apply when Dragon is telling them they're fucking up. Also:
That goes beyond miscarriage of justice. That's the equivalent of weighing down a 10 year old kid with heavy chains. So yeah, I don't think the reason behind the trial going the way it did was ever explicitly stated, but the deck was intentionally stacked against her.Wildbow said:
Last edited:
Ridtom
Good. Bad. I'm the man with the Wand.
The judge explicitely explains why: Canary was (supposedly) going to be used as a message, a show of force if you will, to the parahuman community that they won't tolerate wanton acts of violence.
Of cpurse, that was the Judges ruling. For all we know every other Senator/Justice face-palmed at his decision.
Of cpurse, that was the Judges ruling. For all we know every other Senator/Justice face-palmed at his decision.
- Location
- NM
Whoops, yeah, was too focused on her talk with dragon.
Wildbow said:
So?
Dragon is not an apellate judge, she's a parahuman, and no one knows she's an AI.
What qualification does she have to tell a judge what to do?
That's the equivalent of having a RL prison warden advice a judge on how to decide a case on her docket, and expect her opinion to be given any reasonable accommodation.
Again, people allow their OOC knowledge to color their view of IC goings on.
Let's be clear: Canary committed the offense she was accused of.
That is not in doubt.
What was in doubt was whether it was an accident, as she claimed, or deliberate, as the prosecution claimed.
She was making an affirmative defense, and those put the burden of proof on the defendant.
Would the prosecution have done their best to stack the odds in their favor?
Certainly; that's what prosecutions DO, along with dramatising shit.
DAs get re-elected for winning cases, not for justice, and the bigger the collar the better.
The system is not your friend; that's why you're supposed to have a defense attorney.
Hell, defending lawyers play the same game too; look at this Cracked article for known tricks.
Or at least are supposed to; just happens that Canary's lawyer was either incompetent(not unheard of), or deliberately throwing the case in return for considerations(also not unheard of).
You want to see actual gross miscarriages of justice?
This guy was convicted of killing his wife and kids and executed for it, based on faulty scientific evidence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron_Todd_Willingham
This one was imprisoned for 25 years for killing his wife, and was only cleared by DNA.
The DA who prosecuted him(now a district judge) was charged on account of tampering with and concealing evidence, and took a plea deal for contempt of court
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Morton_(criminal_justice)
And there are a literal string of others
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_miscarriage_of_justice_cases#Twenty-first_century
I may like Canary, and think she got a harsher sentence than she should have gotten, but that doesn't make the sentence wrong.
Or necessitate a conspiracy.
Just bad luck.
Judges are hardly immune from stupidity and misconduct, as well as bias coloring their decisions; see the Montana judge who called a 13 year old rape victim (who committed suicide before the case came to trial) "older than her chronological age" and "as much in control of the situation" when sentencing the 47 year old offender to 31 days in prison.
The actual minimum sentence mandated by law is two years.
And then there is this guy, from the great state of Florida
No conspiracies would be necessary, just plain old judicial misconduct.
The only difference being that the nature of the Birdcage renders appeals moot.
Only in this case, I'm not even sure there is any judicial misconduct; judges get a wide degree of latitude.
Hmmm...
Ok, agree.
While her career was longer than the Endbringer fight, and her situation beforehand must have sapped her Willpower a whole lot, this shows a lack of Virtues needed.
Let's see how the current arc goes then.
Here I guess I agree with Scify, though.
In Worm setting we have extreme distrust towards anything that can be interpreted as a Master effect.
Our possible conversion of Armsmaster into something pretty much completely different in a month time would make waves and cause problems and investigations, be seen with mistrust.
The canon transformation of the same to Defiant in the same length of time is an argument, of course, but for one nobody was interested in bringing up any questions, and they will in our case, and, to be honest, even in canon this rapid transformation felt off to me. People just do not change this fast.
It worked in canon nonetheless because the narrative was so densely packed - a month felt like an eternity.
- Location
- Fabulously Rainbow Ireland
You know after reading that, I'll be totally satisfied if all bringing Autochton to the Nowhereverse accomplishes is him fixing the justice system at orbital bombardment point.
We don't.
That is 100% fanon. Master/Stranger protocols are not Master discrimination, they are protections against a legitimate risk of subversion and infiltration, and only active when there is such a known hostile with those abilities in play. They are exactly the same as practicing increased information security when there are hostile Thinkers, and bringing out the lethal weapons against Brutes. Because it works, and if you don't do it they walk all over you.
Simurgh does not magically make all mind controllers monsters any more than Leviathan tars hydrokinetics, or Behemoth taints pyrokinetics.
Nilbog, Heartbreaker, and Ash Beast don't make their types of parahumans pariah.
There is a known element of parahuman discrimination, which is what the Canary trial really proves. And it's warranted, Villain parahumans are high profile, uncontrollable wild disruptive forces, while their rogue counterparts can outperform their civilian equivalents and breed jealousy. Heroes are celebrities for no more reason than having powers.
Last edited:
STARMETAL CANDIDATES
As I see them, anyway.
Miss Militia
Pros
-Demonstrated political and bureaucratic ability, with a flair for subtlety and personnel management; in her Interlude, Armsmaster flat out calls her better at it than he is.
-Extreme combat ability, with strategic implications; nuclear-level firepower was a canon feat.
Combine with Vista for maximum damage.
-Possible utility applications of parahuman power, especially if it can duplicate non-combat Autobot artifacts, or combat artifacts with social applications. Think Green Lantern ring.
-Max Charm slots, with guaranteed access to Thousand Courtesans due to age.
-Deeplyreligious spiritual, with belief in a Purpose, but not a member of any religion; this makes it much easier to covert her to the Church of Autobot. Especially if she was watching Vox's last broadcast and got hit by Marrow's anima.
Cons
-Publicly associated with the US due to her attire. Possible PR blowback if that changes, as it likely will.
-Female, in an-already female heavy Assembly. This has implications for diplomacy outside North America.
-Lack of an organic Thinker ability means that she will need multiple Charm slots for this.
-Multiple Charm slots may be necessary to give her Exalted-tier defenses; given her abilities, she's likely to be a priority target for elimination.
-Potential loss of some of her Connections/Backgrounds due to people disputing her identity.
-Difficult to convince.
Other Notes
-She would have made a surprisingly good Adamant, actually; high faith is a requirement, plus a track record of acting as a guardian even as a child.
Gallant/Dean
Pros
-Shard comes with both combat and social applications; Blaster/Master for combat, and Master/Thinker for social.
This saves on Charm slots.
-Rich(Resources 4+), with extant business, political and family connections(Connections 4+) as sole remaining heir to the Stanfields.
While the destruction of BB would have taken out a chunk of it, there is no way that a family on the same level as a pharmaceutical corporation had most of it's assets/connections in one city.
-Business and bureaucratic experience; was involved in family business by the time of Leviathan in canon.
Cons:
-Age concerns(17-19, I think) suggest he may not start out with Thousand Courtesans
-Current mental status is in doubt.
-Some players do not like him.
-Low experience levels mean he starts out with average/low-average charm slots.
Accord
Pros
-Thinker ability synergises very well with Perception and Social charms.
-Rich(Resources 4+), with underworld and foreign connections(Cauldron, Yangban) as well as a private army. Resources will have taken a hit after Saint's strike.
-Craftsman
-Aptitude(or at least ambition) for social engineering.
-Thousand Courtesans Accord would be hilarious.
-Willpower to work through near-crippling OCD
-Would jump at the opportunity for conversion
Cons
-No direct combat ability.
-Internal Assembly turbulence, both from Marrow and the other more heroic members.
-This is a particular problem for a social/political Starmetal.
-MAJOR PR blowback.
-Lots of pre-existing enemies.
-?Trustworthiness.
Tattletale/Inquisition/Lisa
Pros
-One of most overpowered precog/postcog/analysis Thinkers seen.
Power would synergize extremely well with Social package.
-Boosted Intelligence gathering and analysis.
-Member of sub-team of personal and professional interest
-Some players like her.
Cons
-Direct support structure for unstable S-class parahuman
- ?Trust
-Alternately angry and terrified of Taylor
-Adamantly opposed to conversion
-Power might be affected negatively by conversion, if it can't access other shards for intel to fill in gaps in observation.(Pure speculation).
-No organic combat ability.
Sirkalla would have had an Intimacy of Trust towards us to allow us to stick her head in the Cradle with no more evidence than our word, especially since we shared same trust in her by briefing her on our thoughts and plans.
Having it convert to something stronger post-Exaltation is fairly logical.
I expect every serious Alchie candidate will have an Intimacy towards us.
Even Accord.
As for the new Motivation?See how Taylor's Motivation changed with the death of BB.
Life-changing events do that.
As I see them, anyway.
Miss Militia
Pros
-Demonstrated political and bureaucratic ability, with a flair for subtlety and personnel management; in her Interlude, Armsmaster flat out calls her better at it than he is.
-Extreme combat ability, with strategic implications; nuclear-level firepower was a canon feat.
Combine with Vista for maximum damage.
-Possible utility applications of parahuman power, especially if it can duplicate non-combat Autobot artifacts, or combat artifacts with social applications. Think Green Lantern ring.
-Max Charm slots, with guaranteed access to Thousand Courtesans due to age.
-Deeply
Cons
-Publicly associated with the US due to her attire. Possible PR blowback if that changes, as it likely will.
-Female, in an-already female heavy Assembly. This has implications for diplomacy outside North America.
-Lack of an organic Thinker ability means that she will need multiple Charm slots for this.
-Multiple Charm slots may be necessary to give her Exalted-tier defenses; given her abilities, she's likely to be a priority target for elimination.
-Potential loss of some of her Connections/Backgrounds due to people disputing her identity.
-Difficult to convince.
Other Notes
-She would have made a surprisingly good Adamant, actually; high faith is a requirement, plus a track record of acting as a guardian even as a child.
Gallant/Dean
Pros
-Shard comes with both combat and social applications; Blaster/Master for combat, and Master/Thinker for social.
This saves on Charm slots.
-Rich(Resources 4+), with extant business, political and family connections(Connections 4+) as sole remaining heir to the Stanfields.
While the destruction of BB would have taken out a chunk of it, there is no way that a family on the same level as a pharmaceutical corporation had most of it's assets/connections in one city.
-Business and bureaucratic experience; was involved in family business by the time of Leviathan in canon.
Cons:
-Age concerns(17-19, I think) suggest he may not start out with Thousand Courtesans
-Current mental status is in doubt.
-Some players do not like him.
-Low experience levels mean he starts out with average/low-average charm slots.
Accord
Pros
-Thinker ability synergises very well with Perception and Social charms.
-Rich(Resources 4+), with underworld and foreign connections(Cauldron, Yangban) as well as a private army. Resources will have taken a hit after Saint's strike.
-Craftsman
-Aptitude(or at least ambition) for social engineering.
-Thousand Courtesans Accord would be hilarious.
-Willpower to work through near-crippling OCD
-Would jump at the opportunity for conversion
Cons
-No direct combat ability.
-Internal Assembly turbulence, both from Marrow and the other more heroic members.
-This is a particular problem for a social/political Starmetal.
-MAJOR PR blowback.
-Lots of pre-existing enemies.
-?Trustworthiness.
Tattletale/Inquisition/Lisa
Pros
-One of most overpowered precog/postcog/analysis Thinkers seen.
Power would synergize extremely well with Social package.
-Boosted Intelligence gathering and analysis.
-Member of sub-team of personal and professional interest
-Some players like her.
Cons
-Direct support structure for unstable S-class parahuman
- ?Trust
-Alternately angry and terrified of Taylor
-Adamantly opposed to conversion
-Power might be affected negatively by conversion, if it can't access other shards for intel to fill in gaps in observation.(Pure speculation).
-No organic combat ability.
I doubt he had to.Remember that Sirkalla came out of her conversion with a shiny new Motivation and an Intimacy to Taylor that are (suspiciously) useful towards meeting our objectives. Autochthon may or may not be meddling with our brainmeats when he does his thing, either intentionally or as a side effect of instilling new abilities.
And for everything else? There's Hierarchical Dogma Lock.
Sirkalla would have had an Intimacy of Trust towards us to allow us to stick her head in the Cradle with no more evidence than our word, especially since we shared same trust in her by briefing her on our thoughts and plans.
Having it convert to something stronger post-Exaltation is fairly logical.
I expect every serious Alchie candidate will have an Intimacy towards us.
Even Accord.
As for the new Motivation?See how Taylor's Motivation changed with the death of BB.
Life-changing events do that.
Last edited:
I have no problems with Team Robot Valkyrie.
Expect a PHO meme of Weaver's Angels, with Alchemical!Armsmaster cast as Bozley
More seriously, there are significant portions of the world where female characters are at a significant disadvantage when decision-making comes into play due to tradition or power-structures.
Something to keep in mind.
Lol.
This would be worth the price of admission, almost as much as Thousand Courtesans!Accord.
Last edited:
The culture is different than IRL, tho.