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Alchemical Solutions [Worm/Exalted] Thread 18: Ravaging Rapscallions Rapidly Regret Regular Rampages

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Ridtom said:
I think the probkem is exactly that. He sees what he thinks was the right thing to do.

That could have gone horrifically wrong if instead of inspiring other capes, the image of Taylor allowing that cape to die, Contessa's victory, the cold capes running away caused backlash against the organization.

I'd be okay with Starmetals if they were like what Lily is to Tattletale in the epilogue: Someone willing to debate, call out, and point to the flaws in a plan and offer constructive critique.

Someone who just goes off on what they assume would be our best interest without at least giving us the benefit of the doubt, just seems to he asking for trouble.
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The concept of the Starmetal qualification is inherently arrogant, that you know better than everyone else, and you are proven right.
Orichalcum is similar, it suggests that your vision of the future is better than other peoples'. What lets you Exalt is that your arrogance is justified. You really are that good.

If you split the Alchemical Exaltations into smaller groups, you have the Starmetal and Orichalcum dictating what is best for society, the Jade and Soulsteel doing the dirty work society needs, while the Adamant and Moonsilver troubleshoot anomaliess.
 
wingstrike96 said:
The concept of the Starmetal qualification is inherently arrogant, that you know better than everyone else, and you are proven right.
Orichalcum is similar, it suggests that your vision of the future is better than other peoples'. What lets you Exalt is that your arrogance is justified. You really are that good.

If you split the Alchemical Exaltations into smaller groups, you have the Starmetal and Orichalcum dictating what is best for society, the Jade and Soulsteel doing the dirty work society needs, while the Adamant and Moonsilver troubleshoot anomaliess.
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Well, sure, running off of Exalted physics, they do no wrong.

Doesn't mean I approve of it at all. And it sounds counter intuitive than everyone working together, which was a theme of Worm itself, and how assuming you and only you have the right answers leads to ruin.
 
But without those qualities, any candidate we send just won't become an Alchemical successfully, unless they have those qualities well hidden.

If you fit those attitudes into the classic roles, the Orichalcum comes up with the crazy plans and pushes them with genius, the Starmetal vetoes the Orichalcum if the plans will be a problem, the Jade does the public work, the Soulsteel does the hidden work, the Moonsilver deals with unexpected complications and then the Adamant makes sure the whole thing isn't heresy.
 
wingstrike96 said:
But without those qualities, any candidate we send just won't become an Alchemical successfully, unless they have those qualities well hidden.

If you fit those attitudes into the classic roles, the Orichalcum comes up with the crazy plans and pushes them with genius, the Starmetal vetoes the Orichalcum if the plans will be a problem, the Jade does the public work, the Soulsteel does the hidden work, the Moonsilver deals with unexpected complications and then the Adamant makes sure the whole thing isn't heresy.
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I'm not saying we shouldn't fill out our Assembly. I just do not approve of what stereotypical Starmetals and Soulsteels represent.

One of Worms best messages was that humanity succeeds when it works together, and that those who assume only they know what's best won't achieve anything substantial. It's examplified best when the Scion fight is won not by Khepri, but by all the Capes working together to depress Scion into Suicide by Laser Gun.

Those who go behind others to do things they assume could help, instead of working with their allies, defeats the meaning and one of humanities best points.

CLARIFICATION: I don't mind a full assembly. I do not not LIKE what stereotypical Starmetals or Soulsteels represent.
 
Well, then we have to pick Starmetals and Orichalcums who meet the requirements and have their hearts in the right place. Autochton's requirements aren't negotiable, either we get one that matches or we don't and lose one slot.
 
wingstrike96 said:
Well, then we have to pick Starmetals and Orichalcums who meet the requirements and have their hearts in the right place. Autochton's requirements aren't negotiable, either we get one that matches or we don't and lose one slot.
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And I have faith you guys and gals will do so.

I just do not support the idea of them.
 
Ridtom said:
I'm not saying we shouldn't fill out our Assembly. I just do not approve of what stereotypical Starmetals and Soulsteels represent.

One of Worms best messages was that humanity succeeds when it works together, and that those who assume only they know what's best won't achieve anything substantial. It's examplified best when the Scion fight is won not by Khepri, but by all the Capes working together to depress Scion into Suicide by Laser Gun.

Those who go behind others to do things they assume could help, instead of working with their allies, defeats the meaning and one of humanities best points.

CLARIFICATION: I don't mind a full assembly. I do not not LIKE what stereotypical Starmetals or Soulsteels represent.
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But the stereotypical Starmetal would likely include people like soldiers who upon being ordered to massacre civilians would either refuse or kill their commanding officers.
 
1986ctcel said:
But the stereotypical Starmetal would likely include people like soldiers who upon being ordered to massacre civilians would either refuse or kill their commanding officers.
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That's also possible.

So see above.

Edit: It's people who go behind our backs and take things into their own hands that bother me. Feels like they don't trust us as allies enough to at least give us the benefit of the doubt.
 
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Besides we should think about the integrity of our Assembly.
We do know that Exaltation does not really change the person - neither their loyalties, nor their priorities, nor their character.

Let's say we let Armsmaster exalt.
He only wants to exalt to become more powerful and a better Tinker.
He does not care about Autochton.
He sees Taylor as a child and his subordinate, most certainly not his superior or even equal.
His loyalty, what he has, is to Protectorate and PRT, not to us.
We will need to convince him to participate in anything we see as worthwhile, because per definition he will think that he knows best and we will cost him tinker time.

We will need to do certain actions in the future to bring Autochton over which not necessarily be in Protectorate's best interests. Will Armsmaster do that? Or will he just vanish in his lab?

Or, even more problematic, our social combat Exalt. Whoever it will be, they would be able to turn pretty much everyone on their side.
Let's say Accord is this Exalted. He could turn the complete Amalgam to his, perfectly functioning, personal toy soldiers, because not even Taylor could oppose an Exalt specialized in social combat for long.

The way I see it, we need members who will be loyal to other Amalgam members first, Autochton second, any others third.

I see this, for example, in Vista, in the Twins. I do not see it, for example, in Accord or Armsmaster.
 
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That's why we need Vista in social role, since she's pretty good at it, is completely loyal, badass, and can help reprogram our other candidates so they're productive members.
 
Remember that Sirkalla came out of her conversion with a shiny new Motivation and an Intimacy to Taylor that are (suspiciously ;)) useful towards meeting our objectives. Autochthon may or may not be meddling with our brainmeats when he does his thing, either intentionally or as a side effect of instilling new abilities.

And for everything else? There's Hierarchical Dogma Lock.
 
FunkyEntropy said:
Remember that Sirkalla came out of her conversion with a shiny new Motivation and an Intimacy to Taylor that are (suspiciously ;)) useful towards meeting our objectives. Autochthon may or may not be meddling with our brainmeats when he does his thing, either intentionally or as a side effect of instilling new abilities.

And for everything else? There's Hierarchical Dogma Lock.
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We should not forget she was already extremely open to our goals and already had a very positive intimacy towards Taylor. Is Autochton ready to tweak a bit? Probably.
Will he brainwash a prospective Exalt like, let's say, Accord, to the level of becoming a brave Autochton worshipper and obedient subordinate of Taylor? Do not think so.
Moreover, even were Autochton to do it, Exalts were made to transcend limitations. Were the manipulated Exalt to realize that he was manipulated, because his values changed significantly after conversion, for example, he would be able to break conditioning, with some effort. Exalts, alchemicals as well, are literally made to pull such things off.

And regarding Hierarchial Dogma Lock: I would like to avoid de facto brainwashing our Amalgam members.
Not only out of moral considerations, or because it is unreliable and Exalted can break out of it, but also because people like Lisa or Rapture will be able to see such manipulations, and their, true in this case, accusations of brainwashing would basically destroy all our credibility in one stroke.
 
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tenchifew said:
And regarding Hierarchial Dogma Lock: I would like to avoid de facto brainwashing our Amalgam members.
Not only out of moral considerations, or because it is unreliable and Exalted can break out of it, but also because people like Lisa or Rapture will be able to see such manipulations, and their, true in this case, accusations of brainwashing would basically destroy all our credibility in one stroke.
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HDL only works on Intimacies they already possess. You can't use it to magically give people new intimacies, not even when you use the submodule to confer the benefits to others. So no, it's not brainwashing, and it's really good protection against Heartbreaker and the like.

The place where things get murky is that you pick the Intimacy(ies) to protect when you buy/install the charm. Who's the one installing the charm?

Autochthon.

Who is already causing minor changes in verbal tics (Thank/Praise the Maker), and so may also decide to make sure that whoever we chose as our social exalt has the proper Intimacy to pass onto the rest of the assembly and the world at large.
 
FunkyEntropy said:
HDL only works on Intimacies they already possess. You can't use it to magically give people new intimacies, not even when you use the submodule to confer the benefits to others. So no, it's not brainwashing, and it's really good protection against Heartbreaker and the like.

The place where things get murky is that you pick the Intimacy(ies) to protect when you buy/install the charm. Who's the one installing the charm?

Autochthon.

Who is already causing minor changes in verbal tics (Thank/Praise the Maker), and so may also decide to make sure that whoever we chose as our social exalt has the proper Intimacy to pass onto the rest of the assembly and the world at large.
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I do not want to argue on HDL - it would turn into one of this endless discussions.
But even disregarding this, the rest of my points, I think, are enough to show that choosing someone who is loyal to us and the amalgam first, Autochton second, and anyone other third is a good idea.
 
tenchifew said:
I do not want to argue on HDL - it would turn into one of this endless discussions.
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I don't see why it would, as the charm text about how it and RLD is pretty clear. It doesn't create an Intimacy, thus it doesn't force anyone to care about anything and is ergo not brainwashing.

tenchifew said:
But even disregarding this, the rest of my points, I think, are enough to show that choosing someone who is loyal to us and the amalgam first, Autochton second, and anyone other third is a good idea.
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Well, yeah. Duh. Having loyal minions peers is always a good idea (although I am, as ever, amused by how this looks out of context - how we're essentially saying that we need to surround ourselves with people that put our wants and needs first).
 
FunkyEntropy said:
Well, yeah. Duh. Having loyal minions peers is always a good idea (although I am, as ever, amused by how this looks out of context - how we're essentially saying that we need to surround ourselves with people that put our wants and needs first).
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Well, since Armsmaster, Accord and quite a few of others with very different priorities compared to us are discussed as serious candidates for Exaltation and membership in our Amalgam, it does not seem to be as clear as you say.
 
Assembly not Amalgam, a group of Alchemicals is an Assembly not and Amalgam.

we have 4 slots left in our Assembly (Jade, Moonsilver, Starmetal, Orihalicum) and only Jade is an easy fit(most of the truly heroic characters in Worm qualify for jade)
Armsmaster(Orihalicum) and Lisa(Starmetal) both have problems, but should those problems be overcome they're basically perfect for our Assembly.
 
sainen said:
Assembly not Amalgam, a group of Alchemicals is an Assembly not and Amalgam.

we have 4 slots left in our Assembly (Jade, Moonsilver, Starmetal, Orihalicum) and only Jade is an easy fit(most of the truly heroic characters in Worm qualify for jade)
Armsmaster(Orihalicum) and Lisa(Starmetal) both have problems, but should those problems be overcome they're basically perfect for our Assembly.
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And why should Armsmaster be at all loyal to us or our Assembly?
He is our superior and will have problems seeing us as his leader or even equal. He is not interested in Autochton or our goals, and his interest in being Exalted is just the ability to become a better Tinker and gaining personal power.

We need an Assembly that is able to work together effortlessly.
I do not see this with inclusion of Armsmaster.
An RPG party with clashing characters and egos usually just squabbles among each other, and the adventure ends with the assassin killing off the paladin while the druid wanders off into the forest, while a party built on synergy of not only classes but characters prospers.
 
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tenchifew said:
And why should Armsmaster be at all loyal to us or our Assembly?
He is our superior and will have problems seeing us as his leader or even equal. He is not interested in Autochton or our goals, and his interest in being Exalted is the ability to become a better Tinker and gaining personal power.
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Despite his glory hound tendencies he does have heroic goals/reasons as well and if we manage to worm our way into his heart (and set him up with Dragon) we could gain his loyalty especially if we convince him Autocthon could save the World AND that he could be part of that.
 
1986ctcel said:
Despite his glory hound tendencies he does have heroic goals/reasons as well and if we manage to worm our way into his heart (and set him up with Dragon) we could gain his loyalty especially if we convince him Autocthon could save the World AND that he could be part of that.
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A lot of ifs.
A lot of things that could not work out, even after he exalts.
And when we will have to leave the Protectorate? Will he really follow?

Instead of him, getting one of the case 53's, or Kid Win, or some other Ward would be a lot easier and we would not need to waste a lot of time and turns on actions with at best uncertain outcome.
 
tenchifew said:
And why should Armsmaster be at all loyal to us or our Assembly?
He is our superior and will have problems seeing us as his leader or even equal. He is not interested in Autochton or our goals, and his interest in being Exalted is just the ability to become a better Tinker and gaining personal power.

We need an Assembly that is able to work together effortlessly.
I do not see this with inclusion of Armsmaster.
An RPG party with clashing characters and egos usually just squabbles among each other, and the adventure ends with the assassin killing off the paladin while the druid wanders off into the forest, while a party built on synergy of not only classes but characters prospers.
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Use Moe-bot Vista to melt his heart. It's just a matter of pushing a few intimacies through his thick skull.
 
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