Alchemical Solutions [Worm/Exalted] Thread 16: Playful Parasites Pervert Prayer, Perpetuate Plagues

[Ridtom]

Agreed on absolutely requiring Missy's consent. I support Exalting her, but if she's not in a state where she can communicate, she can't give consent, and I am totally against imposing the responsibility of an Exalt on someone without their consent.

Mostly against Exalting Lisa. She and the rest of her crew have turned coat and she's performing a valuable service taking care of Amy. Also, they're happy, and I'm a huge softy who hates sacrificing individual happiness for the GREATER GOOD.

I'd comment how I feel about Dean, but I don't feel anything about Dean. Soooo boring. He's a nice guy and a possible romance option and he would make a good party face, but I don't really want him getting the extra screen-time inherent in being an Exalt, he's just too vanilla.

I don't think I need to actually say my feelings on Aisha, at this point. I've been cheer-leading long enough that they go without saying. That said, this probably isn't the right time for it. Her injuries are less extreme than Vista's, so I agree with Taylor's journal: Leave Aisha until the 3rd Exaltation, at least.

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I disagree on Dean being Vanilla as he's had just a tragic turn of events as everyone else here. He was the heart of the Wards, the guy who was apparently able to reign in Sophia in canon and was genuinely good hero. Actually, besides Taylor losing Danny, I think Dean is the only one to lose a love interest during the Behemoth fight and now his surrogate sister. I think he'd jump at the chance

 

[veekie]

Dean is more that he's not as appealing to the readers as a character. Not enough of the readers want to see more of him that badly.

We basically got:
1: Missy
2: Aisha
3: Dennis
4: Chris
5: Weld
6: Dean

For Wards relationships at a glance, from attention placed on them. As we face an exploding cast problem, screentime is heavily rationed. Unlike the others he's had relatively little attention both in canon and here.

Exalting Missy - We definitely need to ASK her before we go through with the deed, since it's big decision that shouldn't be made lightly. So we should probably heal her up to full capacity (or close to it) and then talk to her.

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I'm going with the following scenarios:
-Capable of communication as is - We pop the question and deliver her directly to the Cradle.
-Incapable of communications, but repairable - Fix to the point of no longer locked in and pop the question. Deliver to Cradle, or heal to full if refused.
-Incapable of communications, not repairable - Straight to the Cradle.
-Incapable of communications, cause mental - Consult nearest Thinker.
-Incapable of communications, repairable, but Bonesaw killswitch in place - Straight to the Cradle

Diagnostic Overlay is handy like that.

 

[uju32]

Ah but what if thanks to the "pep talk" she gets from Autocthon in the cradle or what have you she realizes she WANTS to help more people like Amy and it make her happy or even that she views the exaltation as simply yet another way to help her to keep her friends safe along with the rest of the World?

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Why do you assume that this would happen?
As opposed to say, her growing a complex at the certainty of Autochthon being smarter than her?

Exalting Missy - We definitely need to ASK her before we go through with the deed, since it's big decision that shouldn't be made lightly. So we should probably heal her up to full capacity (or close to it) and then talk to her.

Exalting Lisa - We need answers. She knows parts of what happened to Danny and we've been putting off focusing on her for the time being. We also need to vet her and see what her overall goal is, because she tends to dream big (taking over a city for example).

Exalting Dean - He might actually jump at the chance. His girlfriend was killed by Behemoth in front of him and now Missy (who he thought of as a sister) has been kidnapped by the S9. He might want to be able to prevent that from happening again and would be willing to Exalt. Doesn't hurt that he considers us a close friend and trusts us.

Exalting Who - Meh. Don't like her, but I can't deny that her power is very useful though I'm not sold on her mindset/personality. She also still needs to be asked when she's in a better position other than near death.

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Consent is pretty much mandatory for Exaltation anyway; we don't want to blow a slot on someone not interested in the job.
Everyone discussing this should at least go back and read Taylor's own thoughts on her first crop of candidates in the Exaltation Journal Interlude

Spoiler: Aisha

WHO
* Broken: Yes - self-esteem issues regarding forgetability, loss of brother/family
* Drive: Maybe? - mercurial attitude, generally self-interested
* Listen: Yes - maybe overly-dependent currently, could lead to problems in long run
* Subserv: Maybe? - rampant problems with authority, but showing improvement when logic revealed
* Useful: Yes - conscious invisibility extremely potent, charm conversion may allow disable/enable instead of temporary suppression
* Reality: Yes - not generally attached to this world either way
* Other: Youth problematic PR/legality, irreverent attitude potentially problematic, uncertain of how would handle immortality, maybe third (get other Assembly opinions)?
FINAL: WATCH

I find it terrifying that she's one of the first people I really told about this whole offer. It was kind of scary how readily she took to the idea, too. It's just… she lacks that selflessness needed. Would she fight for the greater good, or just play pranks and live up the life? I'm not sure I'd be able to stop her if she had Charms to back her up…

Need to beat it into her head that she's not dumb. She parsed Clarity-speak for almost two weeks? Yes, she's proving a handful now that I've regained my senses, but she's probably the Ward in the worst situation right now because of her power.

Hopefully she handles herself on her first patrol, as that'll show the others that she can be treated as one of the team. Nevermind, she's already making a name for herself. Why did they put her with Clockblocker on her first patrol?

Spoiler: Missy

VISTA
* Broken: Maybe? - self-esteem concerns from youth, signs of trauma from loss of parents
* Drive: Yes - motivated before Behemoth, still maintains strong front for other Wards
* Listen: Yes - possibly considers me older sister, shows clear concern for my well-being
* Subserv: wants to join Protectorate after Wards, but possible attitude with authority lately (Uriel)
* Useful: Yes - spatial warping power extremely powerful in/out combat, may be improved by charm conversion
* Reality: Maybe? - not before Behemoth, might accept with sufficient persuasion
* Other: Youth problematic for PR/legality, undoubtedly will help cause in long run either way, maybe second?
FINAL: LATER?

Sure she's only 13, but she's probably my first real friend since Emma. Even if she WERE a perfect candidate I'd hold back - I know it's not a perfect thing, there's a risk she doesn't make it.

I don't want to lose her like that, but I'm not going to lose this war because I can't make a hard choice.

I find it suggestive that the villain Zeitgeist showed up on it, but Lisa/Tattletale did not.

Getting trapped inside Echidna and tortured by nightmares she was seems to have made her determined to be a better person and lead to her "adopting" Amy so its not too far fetched she might be just a teensy bit more open to altruism.

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Citation needed.
She didn't become a better person because she adopted Taylor in canon; why would that change because she adopted Amy?

Given that that's mostly caused by her inability to control her power and probably the migraines from overuse, becoming a robot would probably fix that.

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Or cause a downgrade, like it would for Dragon.

 

[landcollector]

I find it suggestive that the villain Zeitgeist showed up on it, but Lisa/Tattletale did not.

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Maybe because he's been on our radar since we made the Exaltation journal, and Lisa was not? And that we've been rather busy recently?

 

[veekie]

Lisa, as with many other side characters, did not make it in because Taylor hardly knows anything of her to even make an assessment.

 

[Bear Templar]

Given our new hover throne, anyone willing to talk about the crossbow

The throne has now given us a ammo replicator, so doesn't need to be on the crossbow, and we can always make a portable version (also we can store ammo), variabe ammo crossbow, espically if a magazine filled with bolts counts as an ammo type,

Hm, we also have a shield generator... got to intergrate that with our armour, and anti-matter power generator... naw bad idea to have that in armour without much stronger protection...

If we capture the S9, that should gives the ability to start on a new suit of armour...
Wait we have a replicator, we can use cheaper materials to get proper materials and make new armour in a much cheaper manner

 

[1986ctcel]

Why do you assume that this would happen?
As opposed to say, her growing a complex at the certainty of Autochthon being smarter than her?

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Now thats just SILLY

Consent is pretty much mandatory for Exaltation anyway; we don't want to blow a slot on someone not interested in the job.
Everyone discussing this should at least go back and read Taylor's own thoughts on her first crop of candidates in the Exaltation Journal Interlude

Spoiler: Aisha

WHO
* Broken: Yes - self-esteem issues regarding forgetability, loss of brother/family
* Drive: Maybe? - mercurial attitude, generally self-interested
* Listen: Yes - maybe overly-dependent currently, could lead to problems in long run
* Subserv: Maybe? - rampant problems with authority, but showing improvement when logic revealed
* Useful: Yes - conscious invisibility extremely potent, charm conversion may allow disable/enable instead of temporary suppression
* Reality: Yes - not generally attached to this world either way
* Other: Youth problematic PR/legality, irreverent attitude potentially problematic, uncertain of how would handle immortality, maybe third (get other Assembly opinions)?
FINAL: WATCH

I find it terrifying that she's one of the first people I really told about this whole offer. It was kind of scary how readily she took to the idea, too. It's just… she lacks that selflessness needed. Would she fight for the greater good, or just play pranks and live up the life? I'm not sure I'd be able to stop her if she had Charms to back her up…

Need to beat it into her head that she's not dumb. She parsed Clarity-speak for almost two weeks? Yes, she's proving a handful now that I've regained my senses, but she's probably the Ward in the worst situation right now because of her power.

Hopefully she handles herself on her first patrol, as that'll show the others that she can be treated as one of the team. Nevermind, she's already making a name for herself. Why did they put her with Clockblocker on her first patrol?

Spoiler: Missy

VISTA
* Broken: Maybe? - self-esteem concerns from youth, signs of trauma from loss of parents
* Drive: Yes - motivated before Behemoth, still maintains strong front for other Wards
* Listen: Yes - possibly considers me older sister, shows clear concern for my well-being
* Subserv: wants to join Protectorate after Wards, but possible attitude with authority lately (Uriel)
* Useful: Yes - spatial warping power extremely powerful in/out combat, may be improved by charm conversion
* Reality: Maybe? - not before Behemoth, might accept with sufficient persuasion
* Other: Youth problematic for PR/legality, undoubtedly will help cause in long run either way, maybe second?
FINAL: LATER?

Sure she's only 13, but she's probably my first real friend since Emma. Even if she WERE a perfect candidate I'd hold back - I know it's not a perfect thing, there's a risk she doesn't make it.

I don't want to lose her like that, but I'm not going to lose this war because I can't make a hard choice.

I find it suggestive that the villain Zeitgeist showed up on it, but Lisa/Tattletale did not.

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because we've barely had one conversation with each other before Danny's kidnapping and the assassination happened

Citation needed.
She didn't become a better person because she adopted Taylor in canon; why would that change because she adopted Amy?

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She didn't adopt Taylor after being tortured by nightmares while stuck in a coma inside Echidna which may have been bad enough to cause her to second trigger, and since the nightmares are used to make the clones trigger she likely relived her own trigger event OVER and OVER and OVER until we got her out, and something like THAT would definitely cause someone to reflect on their actions and behaviour.

 

[ChandraMagic]

Why do you assume that this would happen?
I find it suggestive that the villain Zeitgeist showed up on it, but Lisa/Tattletale did not.

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To be far, I will point out that the EOA never met Tattletale after the Exhaltation Journal was started, and this is the reason she's not in it. At least, that's what Gromweld told me way back when we were putting it together.

 

[Ian Drash]

Coil's motivation is to Rule Everything.
Literally tried to kill us because we were immune to his power.
Given that the Dragonslayers have a way around the PRT's premier tinker/infosystems expert, of course he'd be interested now that his ambitions are not limited to Brockton Bay.
You are talking about the guy who tried to assassinate us because Ultimate Power!
Whose base was built with a self-destruct even before Noelle came along IIRC.
Who used to torture people for relief.
Dude has a large vindictive streak.
Coil only looks reasonable in canon because he's being compared to gang bosses like Skidmark, Lung and Kaiser.
As for making an enemy of Dragon, Geoffrey Pellick has been demonstrating for years that it is a very survivable proposition.
If you don't think other people noticed...

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Is Coil in Philadelphia? If not, than I would have to re-read what happened to him after Brockton got nuked to get a better look on his motivations. Assasinating a Ward who threatened his control over the city by simply existing? Fits with his goals and personality. Attacking The Ward, who doesn't seem to care about him? Doesn't really fit. Going up against a team of S-Class hunters (the Guild) to get back at Lisa? Same. I don't think he will trouble us for a while anyway.

Couple of thoughts

1. higher priority than transitioning Autocthon: figuring out a way to generate Essence for Autochthon to eat
   1. maybe beaming it over to him too
2. once the S9 arc is done we should simply call Myrridin up on the phone to ask about the references he made to Creation-physics. If he can provide independent verification of some of our stuff, that should help our relations with the PRT a lot.
3. cyborg bugs (dammit we should have asked Bezlebot about doing this before he went crazy) let weaver interface Perfect Administrator with the internet and electronics. EXTREME multitasking is a go.
4. we should get templates loaded into the chair that can be made from bug biomatter so that we can refuel the 3d printer on the go by just flying bugs into the storage container.

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1. Should be a part of the transition process, maybe the first step. We should also start on a way to generate souls. Sadly my knowledge of Exalted (meta)physics comes from this quest only, so I have no idea of the specifics.

 

[veekie]

Coil, like any canny mastermind with his power base destroyed, vanished off the map to rebuild his powerbase elsewhere. He probably is being plain old Thomas Calvert for now, and the Coil identity is dead. Rebrand and set up elsewhere with the same tricks.

 

[Mechanis]

Or cause a downgrade, like it would for Dragon.

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I'm pretty sure Dragon being an alchemical would be a downgrade not from 'shard converted to charm' but because of losing the BS she gets from 'being a Seed AI.'
we have reason to suspect that any parahumans that are Exalted will be getting a power upgrade- even if that upgrade's just a freaking off switch.


so, I think our immediate goals ought to look something like this:

1) Jack Slash fucking dies. he's gone out of his way to piss us off beyond all reason, and guess what, Jacky-boy? it worked.
2)fix Bonesaw's... Bonesawing of our friends.
3)get another Exalt going. we only have so much time.

longer-term, we should work with Glenn to get the PRT's massive propaganda apparatus to counter Jack's misinformation. also, going forward, EOA at least should be more suspicious of the PRT given the massive security breach that Jack's little speech implies. also, finding a way to generate Essence ought to be pretty high priority, but that'll have to wait until Iris is once again with us.


anyway, I support Jade!Vista, because it's highly likely that we won't be able to fully fix whatever Bonesaw's done to her body. from an IC view, it's likely that she'll make a good ca-

wwwwaaaaiiit a second. I just had a thought.

how many of the S9 captures have had second triggers? cause, that might be a tad important.

 

[Odysseus2099]

So, the Hover Throne provides us with...
-Flight (not really useful. Already had it).
-A weak force-field (moderately useful).
-The world's best 3D-printer (best case scenario is that it can replicate tinkertech, and being able to replicate tinkertech was already one of Taylor's schticks).

...
OK, I don't want to be rude, but this sounds really underwhelming. This device sounds like it's only a couple notches above useless to Taylor, considering the capabilities of her current power armor.
Am I missing something here?

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If it can copy Tinker-tech, we've just solved our problem for mass-producing constructor-drones.

Cassie is an endless font of hope, maybe. So I will soldier on with my dreams. Yep. We just need to figure out if Dragon would like a human body now.

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In canon she basically only wanted a humanoid avatar for sex. She likes being an immortal infomorph.

Its hard for us to interact with her on a personal level right now though. Which is not fun. Yep.

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If it's that important to you we can steal Bonesaw's tech to give her a human-form avatar.

Maybe get in contact with Myrdinn. He should know a few people who actually believe in magic. Which is what we offer.

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EOA was seen talking with him in the Marrow interlude.

Exalting Missy - We definitely need to ASK her before we go through with the deed, since it's big decision that shouldn't be made lightly. So we should probably heal her up to full capacity (or close to it) and then talk to her.

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That fact that Aisha suffering from three amputated limbs, massive shock, and blood loss is arguably less extreme than what has happened to Missy is rather depressing, isn't it?

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That's kinda why I want to talk to Missy before sending her through. Bonesaw can reprogram brain tissue, talking to her for a while to make sure she's still Missy and not a Bonesaw Killbot wearing her body sounds like it'd be for the best.

Having to kill Apostate!Vista does not sound fun.

 

[Tsotate]

Firstly, "An evil person did something like this once" is not a good argument, it's literally argumentum ad Hitlerum.

Secondly, there's a big difference between what Bonesaw did (which even she probably doesn't think are actually upgrades) and Exalting Vista.

Thirdly, why don't you think she can consent?

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It's not "an evil person did something like this once", it's "we are discussing whether or not to do the thing that makes people view that evil person as evil."

I don't think she can consent because she's a minor. That's what being a minor means.

 

[Ridtom]

I'm really excited for the Interludes that Grom is expanding on. Slamu's especially is interesting.

 

[DamionKenley]

It's not "an evil person did something like this once", it's "we are discussing whether or not to do the thing that makes people view that evil person as evil."

I don't think she can consent because she's a minor. That's what being a minor means.

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You know what the cool thing about playing a game is? You can do all the things you want to without having to worry over every little thing. This is a world that was cruel enough to give her super powers. Powers that by design drive her to get into fights. And she WANTS to besides. And if she keeps wanting to, what can they do to really stop her? If our Exalting her can give her the right tools for her chosen path and ensure her survival, I'm all for it. (Provided she's still herself in there and doesn't tell us no, obviously)

 

[noliar]

There is of course an unshackled AI around already. His name is Bezazel and he's a member of the S9. Good news is he wasn't designed from the ground up to run on distributed electronic processors and Dragon has a few years more experience at being an AI. Bad news is he can multitask, telepresence, fork and self improve to his heart's content. Neither the law nor Pellick can stop him. He's even a Tinker too.

****

It is true that Taylor likes and trusts the current Philly roster more than any other people still living. That doesn't make them the people she needs to win the Endbringer war and save Autochthon. Taylor is quite capable of walking away from those she loves and trusts to join up with people she doesn't like and who don't trust her in order to accomplish a sufficiently worthy goal. If she hasn't met the right candidates yet we should have her actively looking, not clinging to the same old group because they're familiar.

Luckily we don't have to ditch the wards from the story: we can still read about them as the mortal friends that keep us grounded. Clarity even gives us mechanical justification.

We need to harness as much of human civilisation as we possibly can for our tasks are vast and anything less will be doomed to fail. We need assembly members who bring power and influence to the party. They will be willful and dangerous and have their own agendas and powerbases - better that than a group weak enough to dominate. We can manage and we must take the risk.

 

[mastigos]

That's kinda why I want to talk to Missy before sending her through. Bonesaw can reprogram brain tissue, talking to her for a while to make sure she's still Missy and not a Bonesaw Killbot wearing her body sounds like it'd be for the best.

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I seem to recall her preferring external overrides to that the original mind is still there fully intact and suffering as it watches helplessly

 

[query]

Quick question, Dragon has contact with Tattletale and is actively supporting her.

Givin her relationship with Taylor why hasn't Dragon questioned Sarah on the whole 'Danny thinks we are a PTR robot' and passed said info over to Taylor?

 

[mastigos]

There is of course an unshackled AI around already. His name is Bezazel and he's a member of the S9. Good news is he wasn't designed from the ground up to run on distributed electronic processors and Dragon has a few years more experience at being an AI. Bad news is he can multitask, telepresence, fork and self improve to his heart's content. Neither the law nor Pellick can stop him. He's even a Tinker too.

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Correction: Bezazel WANTED to become an unshackled AI. We don't know how much that became a reality. Particularly because I doubt the whole "unshackled" thing is something the S9 would do.

 

[Bear Templar]

If it can copy Tinker-tech, we've just solved our problem for mass-producing constructor-drones.

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We would also have the ability to make the components for our power armour, using cheaper stuff as material, Gromweld said the limits were

It's got to fit in the 2ft cube that is its tank. It can't copy/generate essence or essence-based materials, but other than that pretty much whatever... but it still needs the raw materials in the tank to make whatever you're replicating. Items replicated are identical to what you copied originally, however - dollar bills have identical serial numbers, for example.

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I guess it depends on what he means by raw materials
@Gromweld what is the raw materials costs for replicating the power armour (method making it piece by piece of course), the drones and the crossbow... since it can produce tea that implies it can work with biological materials at that complexity, does it need the right atoms, or the right molecules, or the right cells, or does it require the tea bag the water and what ever additions (milk, sugar, whatever)
hm, source of income for anything with dimension less than 1.26 foot
edit: last line is supposed to mean, making anything that is less that 1.26 foot long, for instance making small computers,

 

[Peanuckle]

Quick question, Dragon has contact with Tattletale and is actively supporting her.

Givin her relationship with Taylor why hasn't Dragon questioned Sarah on the whole 'Danny thinks we are a PTR robot' and passed said info over to Taylor?

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That is a good question. When Dragon is up and running again, we can use her as an intermediary to get answers out of Lisa.

As for exalting Lisa... I dunno. She'd definitely be a potent and useful member of the Assembly, but I can't help but think that she's necessary in her current role. Keeping Amy sane is kind of an important job.

 

[landcollector]

Keeping Amy sane is kind of an important job.

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Eh, nothing says she'd have to stop that. This is all contingent on Lisa both passing Taylor's vetting and accepting the offer to be Exalted though.

 

[1986ctcel]

That is a good question. When Dragon is up and running again, we can use her as an intermediary to get answers out of Lisa.

As for exalting Lisa... I dunno. She'd definitely be a potent and useful member of the Assembly, but I can't help but think that she's necessary in her current role. Keeping Amy sane is kind of an important job.

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She can do both, nothing says she can't bring along Amy and Sabah as her "helpers", hell they could even make it a road trip.

 

[Cogsprocket]

I don't think she can consent because she's a minor. That's what being a minor means.

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This is kind of a really bad reason to be against Exalting her.

I know we're a robot, but we're not Dragon here. We don't HAVE to follow every law. Hell, bending the law and getting away with it is one of the big advantages to being in the Protectorate. It's one of the main reasons we're here.

I know people are going "But but Child Soldiers are bad!". Yes. Yes they are. However, that doesn't change the fact that, despite what the Youth Guard would like, the Wards ARE essentially child soldiers. Child police, at least, which is equally dangerous in the Wormverse. In canon by this point, Vista had lost friends and comrades in combat. Here, it's not her friends, it's her family and her city. In neither universe did she leave the Wards. Missy isn't going to stop choosing to risk her life in the defense of the people. Being a normal little girl isn't an option on the table any more. That ship has sailed.

As far as I'm concerned, if she's old enough to risk her life in the defense of the population, she's old enough to make her own damn decisions. If she declines, fine. I'll accept that without question. But she won't decline if we offer. This is second best thing we can do to ensure she survives. The best would be sending her away and never speaking to her again, because we're Endbringer catnip, but nobody's ever going to vote for that, so I'm making do.

 

[Cassiemouse]

You do have to think of the genre of the story. I mean most of the main characters in Worm are minors or very young adults. So it okay if we do the same.