How much time left before the Temple Ring dies? Shatters? Loses everything outside of the power it gave to Hunger? Or any rough equivalent to it being dead.

How long will this rebellion last? Will it be in time? Will there be enough worthwhile dissenters to open up a usable path for Hunger?

Are we going into full trauma mode? Some Tyrant analogue to fight against before we can free the ring?

Just some stuff I don't think I've been able to process so far just yet.

The Ring has more than enough power to keep going for a very, very long time. However, it is no longer able to resist its captors by sending out the Call or otherwise emitting its energies, as it surrendered its entire spare power + will to the Ring of Blood in exchange for a chance at freedom.

I am not sure whether ++Charisma will be better for Rebellion than +0.325 Rank, which does help with social. But, in my eyes more importantly, we really need to start picking +Rank options. They come from Feats, which means they are always pick now or never. They will always compete with more permanent options, but if we always pick those, Hunger will remain a Ranklet until suicidal feats. Alternative means of earning Rank seem rather in the future.

Even Ranklets can achieve awesome feats if they are All-Defeating, however! Just become so strong that even the mighty will look upon you and say: holy shit! Join the All-Defeating Corps today!
 
Hunger's Soul Evocation: An Explanation

Short Version: The Hero with a Thousand Faces contains multitudes within, and as the Master of Two Worlds he is the warden of the prison we call reality.

...

To begin understanding what the deal is with Hunger's Soul Evocation of Imprisonment, let's start by looking at the nature of his soul in general.

[ ] The Ring of Power - Inheritor (3 picks, 2 Arete)
He whose soul contains multitudes, may inherit the legacy of those fallen.

To understand why his soul contains multitudes, let's go back to the first words of this story.

"Every story spoken has been spoken before."

Hunger is not Hero; he is THE hero. He is, or was, the hero with a thousand faces, the monomyth that stretches from the 4,000 year old Epic of Gilgamesh to modern stories like Fate/Stay Night, which is also about Gilgamesh. Though he wears but one face, he was sprung from the monomyth, and within him there still lies some memory of those countless others.

But then why is he the Imprisoner? My past theory, that he is a servent of Fate and that Fate is the prison, wasn't well recieved. So let's try again.

Hunger's Soul Evocation

Some relevant quotes:

[ ] Seven Seals - The magic of the world was evocation of the self, the light of the soul made manifest... The power to Seal can broadly be thought of as the inverse of reification: a flame becomes the character for 'Fire'; an onrushing torrent locked into a picture of itself... Not only can attacks from one foe be captured to be released against another, the nature of things sealed can be intensified through addition or fundamentally altered via combination. One may lack the equipment to meld fire with stone, but far easier to combine the character 'Fire' with the character 'Stone.'
"The Soul Evocation of the chosen hero was Imprisonment, the power to seal."
He learns from his enemy. Mirrors the monster's unmerciful cunning, turns to those forbidden arts his long-dead mentors warned him against. Finds in them, at last, an arena in which his talent exceeds his adversary's.
(The Magus's) Soul Evocation is that of the Librarian, but that doesn't necessarily mean his job is to be one! Just as Hunger's job isn't to be an Imprisoner (or is it?)!

But most importantly, here is the essential insight into the nature of Imprisonment:
Partial sealing of abilities is available before you get the power to just kidnap people. But even reduced to a seal, a person is still a real person. That is the essential insight of the Imprisonment soul evocation, after all. Whether abstract or concrete, it's all equally real.

The Seven Seals are seven bridges between the abstract and the concrete. He was born a human, so him existing in the concrete world is a given. But he is also a faucet of the eternal heroic monomyth, and so exists naturally in the realm of forms. The Seven Seals unite these two aspects of himself, making him the "Master of the Two Worlds" from the monomyth.

To understand how this makes him the Imprisoner, we turn to Plato's Allegory of the Cave.

Socrates explains how the philosopher is like a prisoner who is freed from the cave and comes to understand that the shadows on the wall are not reality at all, for he can perceive the true form of reality rather than the manufactured reality that is the shadows seen by the prisoners. The inmates of this place do not even desire to leave their prison, for they know no better life. The prisoners manage to break their bonds one day, and discover that their reality was not what they thought it was. They discovered the sun, which Plato uses as an analogy for the fire that man cannot see behind. Like the fire that cast light on the walls of the cave, the human condition is forever bound to the impressions that are received through the senses. Even if these interpretations (or, in Kantian terminology, intuitions) are an absurd misrepresentation of reality, we cannot somehow break free from the bonds of our human condition—we cannot free ourselves from phenomenal state just as the prisoners could not free themselves from their chains. If, however, we were to miraculously escape our bondage, we would find a world that we could not understand—the sun is incomprehensible for someone who has never seen it. In other words, we would encounter another "realm", a place incomprehensible because, theoretically, it is the source of a higher reality than the one we have always known; it is the realm of pure Form, pure fact.[1]

Least you think this is a digression, keep in mind that we have been explicitly told that the Realm of Forms is real.

And stranger effects than this are possible for a true master of the art: drawing upon sealed reserves without unsealing them; sealing and combining concepts; safely converting one's self into a seal, thereby to reside halfway into the Realm of Forms!

The prison is reality, and Hunger is the prison warden, who keeps watch at the border between realms of existence, one foot in the realm of the real and one foot in the realm of forms. He can elevate from the Realm of the Real to the Realm of Forms, or debase in the other direction, using the authority he has as a Master of Two worlds, with the act itself being circumscribed and mediated by his 7 seals.

The reason he is described as the Imprisoner and not the Liberator is that unlike in Plato's Cave, abstracting to a higher form does not automatically grant liberation, especially if this elevation is done by a hostile being. Hunger can liberate himself by becoming a being that exists in the Realm of Forms, but by the same act can abstract enemies into forms that are less capable of being a threat to him. He can also lower things from the realm of forms to the realm of the real, which is a much more obvious example of imprisoning.

The final seal, then, is the one that allows Hunger to exist in the Realm of Forms fully as a man, and in normal world (the ream of the Real) to exist fully as a conceptual being such as "The Hero" or "The Saint" or "The Tyrant" or "The World Redeemer".
 
Also, Vigor can be gotten at any 2-pick spend points, while Feats are dependent on having worthy enemies! You can't even say it would be worse at the rebellion than Vigor, because Rank is amazing and does literally everything! We are finally at 5 Rank now, don't you all want to put that Uttermost bonus to use? We far more opportunities to get picks than opportunities to get Rank!

Yeah, utility wise I think Vigor and Rank are pretty comparable for the situation, but one costs Arete and is common.
 
Even Ranklets can achieve awesome feats if they are All-Defeating, however! Just become so strong that even the mighty will look upon you and say: holy shit! Join the All-Defeating Corps today!
All-Defeating is cool and all, but it is behind at least one EFB, probably more. Even if we contributed to it by buying Stance (and may even do so again), we're not going to get it soon.
 
Also, remember how Rank works people! We can use Rank instinct to bring us to people who would be amenable to us! We can use it to recruit the best possible people to bring down the Temple! We can use it to direct people to the best possible targets! God, isn't Rank utterly amazing!?

For all the minutia and complications of running a rebellion to the moment to moment high risk decisions, Rank is best! Due to how it works, all Rank gain have inherent opportunity costs, but we should take them even so, because they aren't available any other way! We can get picks by defeating common beasts, but only worthwhile challenges give Rank. So we should pick them when it's available.

And as I said, it's not like it would be worse than Vigor Incarnate; it's actually better in many respects and can let us do things Vigor can't. Such a comprehensive boost, how can we pass it up!?

I mean given we basically have a stats build at the moment I think Vigor is actually better than the rank increase, because of compounding abilities inflating it's gains.
We don't have stats build, we just got an EFB that would benefit heavily from Rank gain, even! But I won't say it's the s-word, that's quite the curse to put on an option.
 
Mhm, why are we pretending that Vigor Incarnate has synergy while Shameless does not? Shameless directly benefits from Uttermost's % increase and directly buffs EFB which just won us the fight.

Is there something I'm missing here?
 
Mhm, why are we pretending that Vigor Incarnate has synergy while Shameless does not? Shameless directly benefits from Uttermost's % increase and directly buffs EFB which just won us the fight.

Is there something I'm missing here?
Loads of stats plus stat percentage buffs plus Edeldross update buffs plus stats stacking onto other stats mean it's way better than the numbers for it look.

Well hello buff Gisena gang, you have a new member...
Welcome aboard!
 
We just got a Rank focused EFB though, and we can make it even better! Not only does Rank act as general effectiveness boost, better Blood Buffing means betters Stats! Rank really does everything.
 
Loads of stats plus stat percentage buffs plus Edeldross update buffs plus stats stacking onto other stats mean it's way better than the numbers for it look.
So it's just Edeldross buff then? In which case we can say that Vigor Incarnate stacks with 9AP while Shameless stacks with 25AP and Defining Advancement that also consumed a pick/7AP option..
 
Mhm, why are we pretending that Vigor Incarnate has synergy while Shameless does not? Shameless directly benefits from Uttermost's % increase and directly buffs EFB which just won us the fight.

Is there something I'm missing here?
Vigor takes advantage of our bought stance and provides +6 Protection(after uttermost malus)
Rank is also used as defense but we don`t know what is the conversion rate.

Vigor has one flaw - it costs 2 Arete. You may think it is small amount but we need 7 Arete to buy Magic Defeating stance(no argument I hope). Can we generate 6 Arete in one update? Unless Rebellion gives us one more update of course.
 
[X] Foment Rebellion
[X] Feat: Shameless - +.25 Rank


Because social worked so well here :whistle: we decided to improve the society of the magical fascist
We'll be improving the lot of the semi-downtrodden, not the actual magical fascists- and we'll drag the rest of the downtrodden with us, I'm sure, it's just that only the semi-downtrodden are useful to us as foot soldiers until we get done empowering the fully downtrodden.

But more generally, our social would probably work better if we weren't out-Ranked by our opponent and if we had something to offer them that's farther beyond (heh) what they already have.

To do some devil's advocating of my own, Foment Rebellion plays to Hunger's historical strengths as a rabble-rousing hero. It's nothing he's not done before and with Vigor Incarnate or Ennobling he'd be very good at it here. Plus, we improved Aeira's facility for Combat and Gisena's just about to emerge from her metaphorical chrysalis! Are we such Rank-hungry glory hounds that we can't share the victory, even when waiting increases our overall odds of achieving it? Cutting Through has its memetic appeal and there is something to be said for seizing the day, but slow and steady wins the race for a reason.
I think I agree with all this.

It's another piece of damningly reckless characterization, relying on rushing into the unknown and hoping that pulling the plug will cripple the Immortals.
Also a good point. Reckless!Hunger, who thinks not of allies and only of maximizing his own power, speed, and ability to CUT... eh. I don't want to play that guy forever. Having him slow down and use a little of his Hero skill set, rather than just impersonating the Forebear or some other stone-cold killer with more of a 'swift assassin' focus, appeals to me.

Plus, we get counter-caster and ninja support, which could be very useful against the Inner Temple's upper echelon. As of right now they may be only vaguely aware Gisena exists, and utterly ignorant of Aeira. A stealth character is exponentially more dangerous when the enemy doesn't know she's operating in the area, and exponentially more dangerous than that when the enemy doesn't even know your side has a stealther.

Also, we might be able to gain some intelligence on what the Inner Temple guardians are capable of before directly fighting them, which would give us time to prepare if any of them have esoteric abilities or big nasty magic or whatnot.

Bleed them.

In fairness, that could just be propaganda intended to paint them as the dutiful protectors of civilization. But I'd expect to have at least one Immortal guarding the Treasure around the clock, that's the bare minimum of expected vigilance.
Oh definitely.

I mean, if nothing else, a Ring isn't like a normal natural resource that takes huge facilities to process. It can potentially be wielded in all its might by one person. You can just, y'know, grab it, and it will make you significantly stronger. Probably the worst crises the Inner Temple has faced to date came from the temptation of some sufficiently ruthless and already-strong individual whose power surpassed the others to simply take the Ring for themselves and leave Temple civilization to collapse.

So they probably keep a fairly badass guard force located somewhere very close to the Ring, and those guards are probably pretty vigilant, if only to keep an eye on each other. I suspect they could hold us off long enough that more powerful enemies would start dogpiling in.

After all, we're not that much stronger right now than the Marshal. There's no plausible way that the Inner Temple didn't have defenses around the Azure Ring powerful enough to ensure that they could cope with "the Marshal or someone like him goes rogue in a sudden fit of decisive betrayal and seizes the Ring." But such an attack could happen with no warning, at any moment! So I doubt we'll be able to speedblitz them as easily as all that.

Maybe if we'd gotten Avecarn to let his guard down and escort us into the inner sanctum or something. But not this way.

As we once again pass up on opalescence, a thought.
Going straight from not picking Opalescence to Pillars would be like saying "Invest in better armor? Nonsense. I'll buy a house."
This amuses me
If we were just fighting monsters I'd probably be stumping for Opalescence, but since we're planning either a very risky assault or a rebellion, we need something a bit more versatile, something that adds weight to our plotting and our punching and not just our protection.

So, rank. This time.

I just realized:
Foment Rebellion will proc Nightmare Praetor's "As Planned" bonus to planning and preparation!
Oooh, good thought! Remind me what that does? Be nice to have a plan for a change.
 
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[X] Cut
[X] Fierce Quickening

[X] Feat: Shameless

Still in favor of getting this shit done with as quickly as possible. Yeah, Rebellion has better odds, but what's that saying people like to quote? Something about time burning? This spends zero Arete and makes us less of a Ranklet, we can buy another stance once we've saved up enough if necessary.
 
[X] Foment Rebellion
[X] Feat: Shameless


How can I say no to better debuffs, buffs, social influence and regeneration? But also, if we're waiting for Gisena...
Forebear's Blade - Undying Vanguard - 5 Arete (0 picks).

Where tread the Forebear, his men would not fall, for the shadow of his presence could turn even death aside. And for his most stalwart servants, the reach of his shadow spanned continents and worlds.

Choose up to 5 companions whose true Astral Ranks do not exceed your own. They receive bonus Protection, Constitution and regeneration depending on both your relative power levels and their level of loyalty to you. A highly loyal companion would be about as difficult to kill as you yourself are, including the effects of your Artifacts.
I would say giving her the same level of sheer "I can ignore wounds cause they won't be there in a second" that Hunger has is pretty worth it, isn't it?

[ ] Undying Vanguard
 
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If Hunger can sense blood for far miles, and he could feel Avecarn's resistance, he might use that to find strong targets and snipe them with Fall of Wind, bleeding them out if necessary. For more distant targets, we might not be able to see the bladewind, but we can track it by the blood splatter! Evil, but metal.
 
Another benefit of getting Rank now is preserving Strategic flexibility for later, likely in the form of Snap-buying a stance! If people are so worried about what we may face in the Inner Ring, why not leave the option open to get M-DS if necessary?
 
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