A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
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OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Not sure about the aggregate Omake ratings but my Omake power is going towards cutting off the head right now.
- Location
- Pindorama
We can't count on having Gisena for next update.
Th argument becomes entangled when when the "quality of life" Gisena provides being countered by the fact that if we pick her plus Accretion we will be aggravated when we need to solve problem but are ill equipped to do so. That's much less likely to happen with seals.
In a quest, people are usually annoyed and aggravated by powerlessness in situations. You can't say it will make the quest more "fun" when it has the very real risk of aggravating players by making them choose between substandart solutions. If you want to maximize "fun" we need to be prepared for a large variety of situations, not just punching and dispelling.
Th argument becomes entangled when when the "quality of life" Gisena provides being countered by the fact that if we pick her plus Accretion we will be aggravated when we need to solve problem but are ill equipped to do so. That's much less likely to happen with seals.
We'd need to do it ourselves eventually, Gisena or no Gisena. Delaying the ripping of that band-aid is not valuable to me. Why not just do it soon?
Except powerlessness is not the same as not having immediate solution to any problem at hand.
No, you are just trying to conflate two completely different things instead of actually engaging my argument about what Gisena does.
Again, Gisena provides clear quality of life improvements. I have established that. Right now, you are trying to argue that Luna as a whole will feel bad enough to play to counteract said QoL increase based on nothing at all. It's just sophistry. If you can't argue that Gisena makes stuff feel better then just leave it be.
Because people don't want to do it? They want to pick abilities instead. We already had this explicit situation happen. Gisena might not cover every single mitigation we want, but she will vastly reduce the need for them with her presence, which is why we are picking her in the first place.
Also, you seem to believe that Curse mitigation is something you can easily do once and be done with it. Curse mitigation is both something that is difficult to do and that needs to be done constantly. As I've said, you are mistaken in thinking that our Curses are not an issue. They are.
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OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Gisena's also got whatever technique she used to get isekaied here, whether that's part of her nullification or something else.
As for Seal-Buffing Gisena, she's got a higher baseline for physical capabilities than Catherine. However, she has 2 physical dots to Catherine's 5 for a reason I imagine. It's like putting a spoiler and a high end engine on an SUV as opposed to sayy... a drag racer or a formula 1 car. Gisena would get higher total result but she has less ability to use it effectively.
Rihaku
The Internet
Guys... are you really sure you want to go for humanitarian efforts here? Objectively speaking, killing the source of the problem is likely to save more lives in the long run, don't you think? It may not feel as wholesome but the knowledge that there will be one less child orphaned, one less child buried, one fewer sibling rivalry permanently severed... is that not far more important? Plus, there's always the slight risk of the wurm monster actually winning if you fail to intercede.
There are no brakes on the train of VENGEANCE.
Are you sure?
Her Graces are purely nullification-based. The energy bolts are bolts of nullification. She also has a very powerful aoe nullification, and a more precise close-range nullification ability.
Feels like the Maiden's trying to tell her something. But what?
Are you switching your vote to King of Sorcerers? I don't know how formatting like this interacts with the tally program.
There are no brakes on the train of VENGEANCE.
Are you sure?
Her Graces are purely nullification-based. The energy bolts are bolts of nullification. She also has a very powerful aoe nullification, and a more precise close-range nullification ability.
Feels like the Maiden's trying to tell her something. But what?
Are you switching your vote to King of Sorcerers? I don't know how formatting like this interacts with the tally program.
"Being a Muscle Wizard is the true path to power."
Are the mecha and dragonjackal fighting inside the walls? I couldn't quite tell from the text. Also is the +CHA an intrinsic boost to the hero or is it simply stemming from PR?
- Location
- USA
You keep saying that as if we're not going to have to take choices to be able to create Findross to have a chance of Gisena scaling. So instead of taking abilities that Mitigate the Curses you are going to take abilities to power Gisena to mitigate the Curses for us. And we don't know if Gisena's scaling has a limit to it, without Retinue it's possible she'll cap out at 5th Coalescence.
And for all Gisena's vaunted Social, like us she is a Stranger in a Strange land. Cat potentially has her House to aid us, and if she's able to prove her Main House lineage pure it's possible she can command them as the head. And even if her knowledge of the world is old, it's still valuable.
I agree Gisena offers better starting Curse Mitigation, though Seven Seals seems like an interesting system to deal with Curses as well. Taking Gisena is not going to allow us to ignore Curse Mitigation options, at best it will change the shape of them. For all of Gisena's higher social, Cat has ties to this world that might make her the stronger pick in this world. But we have a long time to turn Cat into someone who is useful to us in the worlds to come. Once we have the ability to I think we can Seal whatever is hindering her self confidence and have her jump to Social 3.
With Seven Seals I wonder if we can just Seal people and bring them along with Indenture?
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Based on the Description of Forebear's Blade and how striking people with it reduces their sealing resistance I strongly suspect that's the case.
Being capable of sealing people does not imply being able to take them with us without Mitigation.
I'm not so sure about that, Accretion doesn't really seem to work that way, I expect whatever the mechanism is will be relatively background. I think there's no way she caps at 5th anyway, that's not good lategame scaling which Rihaku said she has, it's midgame at best.
- Location
- Pindorama
Tactics for Twice-great:
Seals is by far the most suited for the Humanitarian Aid. We can Seal the attacks raining from the sky, the additional enemies the wurm disgorges, Seal debris to rescue people and clear lanes of evacuation, seal our and other people's exhaustion and weariness so they can keep going, and even save people by sealing them if they are on the verge of death, or even if they are not but would keep them safer. Given that our enemies disintegrate on death, it's possible that a live specimen captured using Seals could valuable as well. We could also use Seals' alchemization properties when the attack is done to give them food and shelter. Comparatively, Accretion makes us punch better; good for killing but not for saving people.
If quality of life is defined by an improved play experience, how is it sophistry to argue a lack of versatility might decrease it as we are forced into unenjoyable and/or ineffective solutions? The point of even choosing things in quest is having your decisions influence the narrative. Therefore, being more prepared for whatever comes makes us more able to influence the narrative, and therefore to have good choices offered.
In fact, being presented with substandard options is a great source of frustration in quests. We have a much lower chance of that with Seals than with Accretion.
Seals is by far the most suited for the Humanitarian Aid. We can Seal the attacks raining from the sky, the additional enemies the wurm disgorges, Seal debris to rescue people and clear lanes of evacuation, seal our and other people's exhaustion and weariness so they can keep going, and even save people by sealing them if they are on the verge of death, or even if they are not but would keep them safer. Given that our enemies disintegrate on death, it's possible that a live specimen captured using Seals could valuable as well. We could also use Seals' alchemization properties when the attack is done to give them food and shelter. Comparatively, Accretion makes us punch better; good for killing but not for saving people.
What, does Gisena provide infinite quality of life improvement? It is based on something, the option says we will have little proactive utility. Not being able to do things effectively does make our "quality of life" worse. Mitigated Curses provide one form of "quality of life", utility another.
If quality of life is defined by an improved play experience, how is it sophistry to argue a lack of versatility might decrease it as we are forced into unenjoyable and/or ineffective solutions? The point of even choosing things in quest is having your decisions influence the narrative. Therefore, being more prepared for whatever comes makes us more able to influence the narrative, and therefore to have good choices offered.
Did I say immediate solutions? I said we would be ill equipped for choices that require greater utility. Do you dispute that? Being better equipped to solve a problem does not inversely correlate to our enjoyment of the problem.
In fact, being presented with substandard options is a great source of frustration in quests. We have a much lower chance of that with Seals than with Accretion.
I literally said we need to mitigate the curses ourselves Gisena or no Gisena, how does that imply it is a one and done thing? We will have to put significant effort mitigating our Curses regardless. Not having Gisena just forces to confront this reality sooner. Yes, having her means we can focus on immediate goodies, but we already have Scepter, they are not a necessity.
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OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Why wouldn't it? It's an involuntary dimensional jump and a compelled task, it doesn't say it does anything else. If you can broadcast your location to companions capable of dimensional travel using their own methods, or store them in possessions you're carrying on your person, what basis is there to believe the curse stops that? An air-breathing mermaid interpretation of mitigation?
The way I see it, mitigation is an option for bringing people with you by linking them into your involuntary dimensional jump system. It is not the only option if you're resourceful enough to find alternatives.
10:1 it does indeed stop it. Maybe we could bring one person along in a suitcase(Storage Scroll) like that, but after that it wouldn't work without further efforts. I expect the geass also makes non task oriented dimensional travel far harder. Being able to 9-5 your hero killing and head back to your favored world at the end of the day would likely require extremely heavy mitigaiton even if you have travel abilities that should trivially enable it.
Rihaku
The Internet
Yes, inside. Yes, an intrinsic (or rather, retroactive) boost. But a hero who spent time developing his skills with people and the subjective realities of the social framework is of a different disposition than one who focuses on cutting to the heart of the matter. Consider carefully which characterization you'd prefer, and which will better serve you in the future.
Partial sealing of abilities is available before you get the power to just kidnap people. But even reduced to a seal, a person is still a real person. That is the essential insight of the Imprisonment soul evocation, after all. Whether abstract or concrete, it's all equally real.
Maybe getting around that limitation is easy-peasy, it's just a measly curse after all.
But in the last quest the option to take someone along was quite expensive - a Moderate Mitigation on the level of permanently reducing the effects of the Brand of the Wretched by 10%. Maybe it wouldn't be so expensive if we had some means to carry people along ourselves, but never forget it's a Curse.
Accommodating our desires isn't part of its function, and part of what's supposed to make it a Curse is the crushing solitude that comes from (almost) never having a home, never truly knowing peace, never having true companionship. The Curse says it will transport us to the next task, and we can be damn sure it will do so in a way that we will hate.
Gisena won't perfectly solve any Curse related issue we have ever. She doesn't have to. She will make it easier to deal with.
I mean, sure? I won't go into logistics of making Catherine work, but fact remains that Gisena's social is a powerful way to mitigate Tyrant.
I think that we both agree that Gisena can't perfectly perfect everything she is meant to do, so that should be fine?
I don't give a damn about inane "hurr options I am not voting for are objectively worse durr" shit you seem to find interesting. I have made very clear points on how Gisena brings quest QoL to the table. If you can't find faults in my reasoning, that's that.
You are free to keep on believing that your option is totally the bestest one. I'm sure that's a hot take no one ever had before.
And, conversely, builds that offer utility are ill equipped for choices that require sheer power. Unless you wish to claim that other build has both superior utility and power? Or do you think that not having enough power doesn't impact one's enjoyment.
Wow, it's like having her around makes Curses less annoying to deal with or something!
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Yeah, charisma is never going to be our core competence, and when we use it it needs to be clear our words are backed by nuclear weapons. So I'm more convinced than ever that we should just go for the monster here. Instead of basically messing about trying to make a strat we selected heavily against from our curses our starting opening.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
While Rihaku's remarks put a dent in my theory about using Seven Seals to bring people with us, I'd like to point out this chunk of the curse description that suggests what you say isn't the case.
The bolded doesn't say anything about leaving the world though. You could read that into being able to slack off but it's something of a stretch in my view. Remember curses should always be read/interpreted pessimistically.
Test
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