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A Simple Transaction I

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Unelemental said:
Well, Liches have the (self-)sacrifice part down pat at least. I'd be more worried about whether anyone but the Cursebearers specifically granted access to Praxis is capable of learning it. It's such a super-cool magic system, but it was created by the Accursed as a tool for his own purposes. As his Cursebearers we probably pass the requirements automatically, but others might not be so lucky.
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I am guessing he can't learn it, but that his insight and intelligence as well as his magic knowledge is so high he can help us with it anyway.

I see the Forebear's Blade as variable in when it's useful. I think with a Sword build it's more of a late game pick since you don't have the skill to make use of it early. With Scepter and a remittance to restore power to the native system then it might be good early.

Talon does need a kill. But it helps you intimidate which might let you avoid fights, and it can give equipment if you do get a kill.

So if the base Sword build has 5 fights early on that they need to survive to be "safe", if Talon lets you avoid 2, and win 1 that helps your chances in the next 2 it could lower the early game risk.


Orm Embar said:
Since Gisena's better at defending us early in the game, Sword builds should probably take her with Retinue and Accretion. The hero's preexisting armor helps with defense and allows training to focus on the Praxis. We might also be able to help her gain Coalescences faster by creating findross through Accretion. Findross' defining feature is that it makes things as they should be and Accretion's similar process.
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If the plan is to use Retinue to convince Gisana to defend us, wouldn't Hunger just be better at it? Give her Hunger in exchange for a promise to defend us, let's her grow her combat so that she's better able to defend us against threats.

Or are you all afraid of a Gisena who enjoys life?

Edit: Whoops didn't mean to double post.
 
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Picking Talon for the intimidation factor as compared to actual power is asinine. Forebear does help us immediately; it's right here:
Rihaku said:
Those struck by its edge can be sealed with far less resistance, while energies striking its flat are easily imprisoned.
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That can be useful right out of the gate.
Orm Embar said:
Gisena's better at defending us early in the game, so Sword builds should probably take her with Retinue and Accretion. The hero's preexisting armor helps with defense and allows training to focus on the Praxis.
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Rihaku said:
Accretion was powered down like the other arts, so he doesn't have access to its full capabilities anymore.
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Plus he confirmed the base arts basically don't influence our chances of survival anyway.
Sickul said:
If the plan is to use Retinue to convince Gisana to defend us, wouldn't Hunger just be better at it? Give her Hunger in exchange for a promise to defend us, let's her grow her combat so that she's better able to defend us against threats.
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Retinue does come with an actual loyalty pledge, y'know. Gisena is the best fighter we have available, but it doesn't mean she's good; we don't want to shackle her progression to fighting.

Speaking of, @Rihaku Could we awaken Gisena's Soul Evocation through the Sword? It's another bargaining chip.
 
Sickul said:
My fear is that people who don't want Retinue are worried that a full Retinue basically neuters us as a Progression Cursebearer. Why take 5 Curses to become one and then turn the benefit from it down a 4th. The beauty of Hunger is that it let's us keep that speed while still empowering others.
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I was worried about this too, but eventually the thread and Rihaku convinced me that the synergy available by pooling six different people who each held around 25% of a Progression Cursebearer's growth was enough to overcome a solitary Progression Cursebearer working by themselves.

DkArthas said:
I think Acceretion works far better with an Praxis build. With seven seals you would be working to grind two different sorts of power while being a cripple incapable of defeating a serious enemy!

Acceretion would allow you to focus on the Praxis and i think it would also work pretty well for someone like Catherine who relies on outside equipment to be relevant, it is something made for those who are going to become Heroes and legends one day!
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Mmmm... I wouldn't be too sure. After all, if Accretion is too abstract for the Lich to learn, what hope does Catherine have of learning it?

It wouldn't require us to focus effort to train it, that's true, but the downside is that the only way to gain Legend is via battle or some other difficult task, which means that we wouldn't really be able to increase the power of Accretion in the early game, which is a bit dubious.

Sickul said:
I see the Forebear's Blade as variable in when it's useful. I think with a Sword build it's more of a late game pick since you don't have the skill to make use of it early. With Scepter and a remittance to restore power to the native system then it might be good early.
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Uh, no, Blade is specifically an early-game pick when paired with Seals. It's the one power multiplier we've got on offer that strengthens us in the moment (besides companions), so it is the very definition of an early-game pick for sword.

Sickul said:
If the plan is to use Retinue to convince Gisana to defend us, wouldn't Hunger just be better at it? Give her Hunger in exchange for a promise to defend us, let's her grow her combat so that she's better able to defend us against threats.
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Not quite. Hunger only multiplies experience gain so that someone progresses "many" times faster than normal. Great for a Progression Cursebearer who has a growth rate of a kajillion, less so for an ordinary person who might struggle an entire lifetime to reach the higher bounds of their magic system.

Comparing a Hunger multiplied normal person and a 25% Progression Cursebearer, the 25% should win.
 
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Sickul said:
If the plan is to use Retinue to convince Gisana to defend us, wouldn't Hunger just be better at it? Give her Hunger in exchange for a promise to defend us, let's her grow her combat so that she's better able to defend us against threats.

Or are you all afraid of a Gisena who enjoys life?
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Might actually be synergistic, since the Grace of the Maiden comes through acting in accord with Duty rather than studying. Fighting to defend the helpless (i.e. us) could count? Hard to say, we've never witnessed a natural Coalescence. Or we could wear Hunger ourselves and try to frontload the risk by picking a fight alongside Gisena to catalyze growth, something she could rescue us from. Intensify + Hunger might yield a boost to relevant levels in one fight, if you really wanted to go death or glory.
 
Orm Embar said:
Gisena's better at defending us early in the game, so Sword builds should probably take her with Retinue and Accretion. The hero's preexisting armor helps with defense and allows training to focus on the Praxis. We might also be able to help her gain Coalescences faster by creating findross through Accretion. Findross' defining feature is that it makes things as they should be and Accretion's similar process.

Speaking of Prolessarch, did he make his phylactery the stories told about him? What an absolute madman. Talk about only dying when your name's last spoken...
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For all that work it would probably still be Heavy Counter'ed if he stayed.
 
BrainInAJar said:
Retinue does come with an actual loyalty pledge, y'know. Gisena is the best fighter we have available, but it doesn't mean she's good; we don't want to shackle her progression to fighting.
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It has a loyalty pledge as an optional add on, and we can't make them pledge before they join so there's no incentive for them to do so.

Hunger is a tangible Artifact and I'm guessing is recognizable as such. It would have much more value as a bribe.

BrainInAJar said:
That can be useful right out of the gate.
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This is where I think I differ from the majority. I see it as makes it easier to seal someone, but I think currently sealing a person is beyond impossible for the Hero. So in effect it does nothing.

That's why I see it as more of a late game pick, once we progress to the point where we can do higher level stuff with the Seals the Blade has value. A Scepter power that gets us earlier access to higher level native magic would make the Blade better earlier.
 
Orm Embar said:
Or we could wear Hunger ourselves and try to frontload the risk by picking a fight alongside Gisena to catalyze growth, something she could rescue us from. Intensify + Hunger might yield a boost to relevant levels in one fight, if you really wanted to go death or glory.
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The problem is with Intensify, we wouldn't even have our native magic system to help us fight, so Intensify plus Hunger better work extremely fucking fast because we'd literally be trying to pick a fight as a cripple. Gisena might just run away too; it's not unprecedented.

Sickul said:
It has a loyalty pledge as an optional add on, and we can't make them pledge before they join so there's no incentive for them to do so.

Hunger is a tangible Artifact and I'm guessing is recognizable as such. It would have much more value as a bribe.
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Gisena is not heartless; she'd accept a forthright deal, especially since we are literally cursed. We just need something to establish a relationship. If Gisena can awaken a Soul Invocation, we could use that too.
Sickul said:
This is where I think I differ from the majority. I see it as makes it easier to seal someone, but I think currently sealing a person is beyond impossible for the Hero. So in effect it does nothing.
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It straight up makes seals stronger, dude.
Rihaku said:
Seven Seals - The Soul Evocation of the chosen hero was Imprisonment, the power to seal. This blade extends, reinforces and magnifies the power of the soul, vastly enhancing the unique affinity of its wielder. Those struck by its edge can be sealed with far less resistance, while energies striking its flat are easily imprisoned. Seals draw by its point hearken as if cut into the primordial clay, becoming easier to comprehend and more potent in function. Increases effectiveness of Imprisonment on Curses.
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If we can use Seals at all, it's an immediate power boost.
 
Sickul said:
This is where I think I differ from the majority. I see it as makes it easier to seal someone, but I think currently sealing a person is beyond impossible for the Hero. So in effect it does nothing.

That's why I see it as more of a late game pick, once we progress to the point where we can do higher level stuff with the Seals the Blade has value. A Scepter power that gets us earlier access to higher level native magic would make the Blade better earlier.
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I mean, the description of it pretty much directly states that the Blade vastly increases the Hero's affinity with Seals, allowing him to create much more powerful effects with much less effort. That's, like, as direct an early-game powerup as we're going to get with sword, as it would allow the Hero to make his currently meager Seals much more powerful and easier to use.
 
BrainInAJar said:
The problem is with Intensify, we wouldn't even have our native magic system to help us fight, so Intensify plus Hunger better work extremely fucking fast because we'd literally be trying to pick a fight as a cripple. Gisena might just run away too; it's not unprecedented.


Gisena is not heartless; she'd accept a forthright deal, especially since we are literally cursed. We just need something to establish a relationship. If Gisena can awaken a Soul Invocation, we could use that too.

It straight up makes seals stronger, dude.

If we can use Seals at all, it's an immediate power boost.
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Seals are a prep type power tho. Great except in this rather problematic situation where we might be thrown into a fight with no prep whatsoever.
 
Talon wouldn't be any better in that circumstance. I guess it looks scarier? Taking Hunger wouldn't help either, because we want to avoid fights at this juncture.
 
BrainInAJar said:
If we can use Seals at all, it's an immediate power boost.
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Part of the reason I chose my reading of the Blade is this:
Rihaku said:
Important PSA: Lesser Remittances do not grant immediate power. The best they can do is strengthen your Primary Remittance some, but if your Primary Remittance has a starting power of 0 due to being purely potential-based, like The Sword, that would not solve your problem.
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So unless Rihaku just changed his mind, I think the Blade is destined to disappoint you.
 
It is strengthening our native magic system though, which has low power; but it's there. All that would change is make me vote for Catherine for the extra body; I don't think Talon nor Hunger would be good in our circumstances, and Intensify literally cripples us in the immediate term.
 
I think intensify works pretty well with Praxis and Acceretion. The Acceretion Sword would grow with us in such a way that it would potentially complement Praxis. Add Gisena to that and you have as much chances to survive as you are going to get. The focus should be on taking all the remittance that increases the growth of Praxis. With another Lesser Remittance earned through participation, you can get the lich. Who might further accelerate Praxis growth.

Remember Retinue doesn't make Gisena stronger, just gives her the potential for it while slowing our growth. It's better use her to protect us early on so that we can improve Praxis as quick as possible.
 
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DkArthas said:
I think intensify works pretty well with Praxis and Acceretion. The Acceretion Sword would grow with us in such a way that it would potentially complement Praxis. Add Gisena to that and you have as much chances to survive as you are going to get. The focus should be on taking all the remittance that increases the growth of Praxis. With another Lesser Remittance earned through participation, you can get the lich. Who might further accelerate Praxis growth.

Remember Retinue doesn't make Gisena stronger, just give her the potential for it while slowing our growth. It's better use her to protect us early on and than grind Praxis as quick as possible.
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Intensify wouldn't synergize with Accretion, given that it locks all magic systems except the Praxis when chosen. Like, if you choose Intensify, there is no Accretion, full stop. It's because of this that Intensify alongside Praxis is seen as suicide, as without his native magic system the Hero is literally nothing but a weak cripple.
 
Would it be safe to assume that there'll be a second consolidation vote after this one before we get into the story?
 
DkArthas said:
I think intensify works pretty well with Praxis and Acceretion. The Acceretion Sword would grow with us in such a way that it would potentially complement Praxis. Add Gisena to that and you have as much chances to survive as you are going to get. The focus should be on taking all the remittance that increases the growth of Praxis. With another Lesser Remittance earned through participation, you can get the lich. Who might further accelerate Praxis growth.

Remember Retinue doesn't make Gisena stronger, just give her the potential for it while slowing our growth. It's better use her to protect us early on and than grind Praxis as quick as possible.
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Dude, Intensify literally does not let us use our native magic system. There's no synergy. And we still have to convince Gisena of things, y'know.

BTW, while I was looking through Gisena mentions:
Rihaku said:
I wouldn't suggest taking Hunger with Sword, especially not also with Intensify. You'd have almost no way of surviving your first battle.
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I guess that's that.
 
KidFromPallet said:
Intensify wouldn't synergize with Accretion, given that it locks all magic systems except the Praxis when chosen. Like, if you choose Intensify, there is no Accretion, full stop. It's because of this that Intensify alongside Praxis is seen as suicide, as without his native magic system the Hero is literally nothing but a weak cripple.
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I was perhaps being overly optimistic while looking at the fluff. Hoping that the "Infused with a spark of Accursed power" thing would let it be relevant, maybe with Accursed-sempai not letting the Remittance go to waste? Something like Acceretion limited only to the sword. Probably a fools hope though.

Edit: Still, my point stands Praxis + Lich + Intensify + The Sorceress might be the best way to make Sword build work.
 
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Inserted tally

[] King's Sceptre/Sword
[] Seven Seals
[] Forebear's Blade
[] Gisena Allria, the Nullity Sorceress
[] Retinue
Are the options winning currently. We might not need an consolidation.
Adhoc vote count started by Dark Lord Bob on May 19, 2020 at 6:51 AM, finished with 289 posts and 43 votes.
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[X] Plan Hungry Synergy
-[X] The King's Scepter
-[X] Accretion
-[X] Gisena Allria, the Nullity Sorceress
-[X] Hunger
-[X] Retinue

Ok I am having a hard time justifying Catherine, I think meta reasons are too nebulous. This plan overflows with synergy.

Retinue + Gisena obvious synergy. Make companion better.
Hunger + Retinue. Giving up a portion of your potential to companions is more palatable when you have so much of it. To be clear, I probably wouldn't vote to make Gisena part of the Retinue right away if there's no immediate reason to do so.
Gisena + Accretion. Findross feeds the savage beast.

Should have a much better quality of life between Hunger and the Curse Mitigation of empowered Gisena. Remember Rihaku said the Scepter comes prepackaged with To Shatter Heaven. Is it possible to learn too quickly?

Maybe there will be a Scepter choice to give us another Lesser Remittance (but then how would I chose between Catherine and the Blade?).

Come comrades! The tally doesn't lie, you want Gisena. You want Retinue. Drop the Blade and Seals for the synergy of Accretion with Gisena and Hunger with Retinue!
 
Hmm, Scepter + SS is the worst of both worlds.

Scepter works better with Accretion because the former gives short term might in order to develop the latter, which can unlock Truly Hax Bullshit (TM) thanks to conceptual legend.

Meanwhile, SS works best with Sword because despite all the fear about not giving us actual, immediate benefits, it can unlock the power of imprisoning attacks. If that doesn't sound like an incredible instrument of survival, I don't know what it is.

At this point, I'm open to be bribed to vote for a Scepter's choice if Sword seems to have no chance of winning.
 
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