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A Simple Transaction I

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Yes, thanks to the inimitable Addio we have uncovered the Tactic: Trying to revoke the Doom of the Tyrant right now, granting the Accursed a full stage of mitigation due to the Cursegiver himself rescinding it. This apparently grants a tremendous bounty of power as part of the Doom is liquidated. Haeliel and other High Cursebearers are forbidden from requesting Hunger do this.
ImperatorV said:
That's entirely fucking hilarious. Hunger can just pick Freedom and then lift an entire major curse, something most High Cursebearers probably can't pull off, as a combat-type. Amazing.
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It's 'only' a full stage of mitigation for the man himself. But yes, this makes Hunger a High Cursebearer on a technicality, as he'll have performed an act relevant to the Accursed.

Can you imagine how the Maiden will feel when he pulls this bullshit out after their fight? "Truth is, the game was rigged from the start."
 
So, Orm. We all know that Addio is in the Vote Severing realm, so that leaves you. Your vote is now, as far as I understand it, essentially the deciding vote for Vengeance vs. Freedom.

What say you?
 
Aabcehmu said:
What say you?
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That I hope for the Return of the Omake King, regardless of which option he chooses. I was a gung ho Vengeance voter at first, but it's become less appealing the more we learn about Hunger's odds. There are still some remaining questions like reroll applicability, how many we have in stock, and whether it's a binary pass/fail or if there are a range of outcomes below a nat 100. I nearly switched to Freedom for the 4th of July, but some of the arguments made in its favor pushed me back across the aisle.
 
Orm Embar said:
I was a gung ho Vengeance voter at first, but it's become less appealing the more we learn about Hunger's odds.
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Tbh the big thing right now is that we know that it is not all or nothing. As Hunger grows stronger he will be capable of mitigating more of Doom of Tyrant on Accursed(and thus presumably on every single Cursebearer there is). Should we perish in our Vengeance and fail to reach HCB status, we would still do multiverse at large a huge favor by mitigating Tyrant as much as hungerly possible. Overall, Vengeance Hunger should bring more mitigation than Freedom Hunger regardless of how we roll for HCB, and I think that greater Tyrant mitigation is cause noble enough to sacrifice Hunger's happiness for.

Besides, it makes the roll actually relevant. Before rolling 98 would be as much of a failure as rolling 2; now it means that instead of full mitigation we got Accursed Stage 7 mitigation, and not Stage 2.5 mitigation. That matters.

Picking Vengeance matters.
 
Yeah if anything, this type of tactic shows that hunger can have an impact without going HCB level explicitly. So vengeance is no longer "will hunger impact the accursed at all", it's "to what degree will hunger impact the accursed". Whether hunger survives to unshackle that burden completely is uncertain, but I have to ask, why would hunger do anything except his uttermost?
 
Alternatively, we could use this opportunity to give Hunger a happy ending while also managing to further the cause of the Accursed. The primary downside of Freedom was that while it's what the Accursed wants, it doesn't progress his overall goals, and now we have the opportunity to let the Accursed have his cake and eat it too.
 
ImperatorV said:
Alternatively, we could use this opportunity to give Hunger a happy ending while also managing to further the cause of the Accursed. The primary downside of Freedom was that while it's what the Accursed wants, it doesn't progress his overall goals, and now we have the opportunity to let the Accursed have his cake and eat it too.
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It's about level of severity. It's undeniable that hunger trying to improve and weaken the tyrants curse further will result in a higher degree of success than a hunger who rests in peace. If you want to sacrifice hungers most consistent trait because you want him to have his perfect ending, that's fine. But vengeance is now undeniably better for the accursed. The fact that hunger can now see that he has a tangible path to improve the accursed odds only further cements in my mind that it is extremely within character for him to forge onwards. Every challenge he overcomes is another shackle released from the doom of the tyrant.
 
The other question is this: Is this really the last opportunity for a happy ending? It's the end of the quest, not the end of Hunger.

Haliel could resurrect his wife and son at an earlier point. The Accursed could as well given enough favor and a suitable opportunity, which the Tactic helps earn. The freer choices with Tyrant weakening may make Apocryphal easier to deal with, to the point Hunger can make the equivalent of his happy ending while still on the Vengeance path, even if he fails to climb all the way. It's not like Freedom eliminates problems forever (doesn't he still have Geas?), the real difference is removing Apocryphal making things more laid back in the meantime.

Note that I'm still a Freedom fan. I'm just more accepting of Vengeance if we recognize this isn't and entirely binary choice, and Hunger can still get a happy ending, and make major changes to bring about a better world, without needing to beat the very high odds of breaking entirely free of his curses, given what even partially revoking Tyrant means.
 
demondarkking said:
The other question is this: Is this really the last opportunity for a happy ending? It's the end of the quest, not the end of Hunger.

Haliel could resurrect his wife and son at an earlier point. The Accursed could as well given enough favor and a suitable opportunity, which the Tactic helps earn. The freer choices with Tyrant weakening may make Apocryphal easier to deal with, to the point Hunger can make the equivalent of his happy ending while still on the Vengeance path, even if he fails to climb all the way. It's not like Freedom eliminates problems forever (doesn't he still have Geas?), the real difference is removing Apocryphal making things more laid back in the meantime.

Note that I'm still a Freedom fan. I'm just more accepting of Vengeance if we recognize this isn't and entirely binary choice, and Hunger can still get a happy ending, and make major changes to bring about a better world, without needing to beat the very high odds of breaking entirely free of his curses, given what even partially revoking Tyrant means.
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Do you honestly think Hunger would choose that over 'just get more power and do it when The Accursed wins' if he turns it down again?
 
Orm Embar said:
That I hope for the Return of the Omake King, regardless of which option he chooses. I was a gung ho Vengeance voter at first, but it's become less appealing the more we learn about Hunger's odds. There are still some remaining questions like reroll applicability, how many we have in stock, and whether it's a binary pass/fail or if there are a range of outcomes below a nat 100. I nearly switched to Freedom for the 4th of July, but some of the arguments made in its favor pushed me back across the aisle.
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Honestly, I also want to know the answer to those questions as well.

Like, is it 1% of reaching HCB and defeating the Hidden Ones?
 
Since we're arguing Freedom vs Vengeance again, I will reiterate that the first and greatest argument in favor of Freedom:

Rihaku said:
"Thank you," he said, as it turned to leave. "I'll pay you back one day."

The Accursed raised an eyebrow, slight amusement in its eye. "See that you do."

Somehow he felt, despite the vast gulf between them - transcendent overbeing and depleted wretch - that those parting words were no cosmic transaction, but merely an agreement between men.
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Rihaku said:
"Once you proscribed to pay me back for the powers I had imparted on you. Do me this favor, old foe: rest. Let me never again be forced to take up arms against you...

…It was a difficult enough fight the first time."
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The Accursed has called in his favor. Hunger has treated his word as his bond throughout this entire story, it's something that's deeply important to him. To betray that would sour any victory.

You can make the argument, and many have already done so, that Vengeance can, in the higher-end outcomes, be more valuable to the Accursed than Freedom, but the fact remains that the Accursed has made his choice. Do we truly know better than the Accursed himself?
 
There's also the fact that if Hunger breaks his word now.. then, well, that means that he's willing to break his word. That's relevant given Doom of the Tyrant's personality-locking.
 
ImperatorV said:
Alternatively, we could use this opportunity to give Hunger a happy ending while also managing to further the cause of the Accursed. The primary downside of Freedom was that while it's what the Accursed wants, it doesn't progress his overall goals, and now we have the opportunity to let the Accursed have his cake and eat it too.
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it is "help universe at large and be happy" vs "help universe at large more". Before there was some ambiguity due to Vengeance being high risk high reward option, but now Freedom is literally making universe worse for selfish reasons.
 
It's important to mention that, as Rihaku has mentioned on the discord, this was all part of the Accursed plan, that despite Hunger having been originally resurrected by the Hidden Ones, the Accursed has now managed to manipulate the board in a position where he gets a full stage of mitigation to one of his Curse:

R' — Yesterday at 8:39 PM
Hunger wasn't resurrected by the Forebear's contingencies
R' — Yesterday at 8:39 PM
You already know which beings are responsible for that
Chimerical Tesseract — Yesterday at 8:40 PM
The Hidden Ones
R' — Yesterday at 8:43 PM
So yeah, in light of this
[8:43 PM]
Are you guys sure you don't want to vote Freedom?
[8:44 PM]
Dare you still underestimate the planning capacities of the Accursed?

Shard — Today at 1:09 PM
The Accursed still prefers Freedom even with the Tactic?
R' — Today at 1:15 PM
Why wouldn't he?
[1:15 PM]
Everything proceeds as he has foreseen.

So if this was all part of the Accursed plan and he is now asking us to pick Freedom, there is almost certainly a good reason and we should probably listen to him.

Vengeance voters seem to me to both have absolutely zero trust in the Accursed decision making ability, to the point of thinking that Freedom is "undeniably worse than Vengeance" or "literally making the universe worse for selfish reasons" despite it being the favored option of the Accursed, but also have absolutely unlimited trust in the Accursed, to the point where they believe that it's morally obligatory for Hunger to sacrifice everything in the pursuit of helping the Accursed reach the point where he can again attempt to obtain absolute, uncontestable power of absolutely everything everywhere everywhen. This does not seem like two beliefs that should ever end up in the same mind simultaneously.

Personally I trust the Accursed and so I favor Freedom.
 
Mm, to be fair to them I would say that Vengeance voters do trust the Accursed Victorious, but the present Accursed is comparatively more compromised and less potent than that theoretical being. Still, to rate Hunger's judgement over his is impressive hubris…
 
Maybe the real Curse of Hubris was the thread all along. We already were the real Apocryphal Curse all along, why not go for the set? All that's left is to be those in power that Hunger comes to the attention of. Like maybe if we had the power to decide his fate, and were watching his adventures the whole time...
 
Box Lunch said:
But curse mitigation is an act, not a state of being. Why would it rise in value after the fact?
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We know that Hunger increasing in power would increase level of Tyrant mitigation, up to completely mitigated in case of Vengeance succeeding.
formalAI said:
there is almost certainly a good reason
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By all means do list it my lad.

Because from where I'm standing it just seems like super cope because your option is just selfish as fuck and you guys can't justify it at all.
 
Wolfy said:
We know that Hunger increasing in power would increase level of Tyrant mitigation, up to completely mitigated in case of Vengeance succeeding.

By all means do list it my lad.

Because from where I'm standing it just seems like super cope because your option is just selfish as fuck and you guys can't justify it at all.
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So you think you know better than The Accursed, who explicitly prefers Freedom, and has Xanatos-ed this shit?
 
I mean, within the setting, the Accursed has vastly more information and superior decisionmaking than Hunger.
 
With the Tactic's discovery, the Accursed has had a Cursegiver revoke their curse. And He only had to pay Hunger with about 10 months of Progression. He's gotten the maximum possible return on Hunger in a very short amount of time. But the Hidden Ones remain at large. So while Hunger has handled the "take up a portion of my burdens" portion of the deal, the part where he "receives a portion of power" from the Accursed has not really been carried out to my satisfaction yet.

The transaction is not complete. Hunger is doing his part: He's been in the fight with the Apocryphal Curse for not even a year and we have seen two moments where the Apocryphal Curse may have overstepped and been mitigated "for real" or lost power over multiple ontologies. That's well before Hunger got anywhere close to gaining the power needed to fight the Hidden Ones.

Yes, the Golden Tomorrow is a commendable goal. Yes, the Accursed has probably gotten the maximum value out of Hunger and has suggested Freedom. But Hunger is not the Accursed's slave, nor subordinate. During his induction to the CB Society in Nilfel, Hunger knelt and was told "there's no need for that." During the Simple Transaction, Hunger felt that the agreement was between equals:

"Thank you," he said, as it turned to leave. "I'll pay you back one day."

The Accursed raised an eyebrow, slight amusement in its eye. "See that you do."

Somehow he felt, despite the vast gulf between them - transcendent overbeing and depleted wretch - that those parting words were no cosmic transaction, but merely an agreement between men.
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Pursuing Vengeance breaks no oath. It does not gainsay the Accursed. It simply demands that the original agreement be carried out the uttermost end. The Hidden Ones cannot be spared from retribution out of mere sentiment.
 
ilbgar123 said:
So you think you know better than The Accursed, who explicitly prefers Freedom, and has Xanatos-ed this shit?
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Shard said:
I mean, within the setting, the Accursed has vastly more information and superior decisionmaking than Hunger.
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We had this conversation already. Accursed's preference is not an indication of his keikaku dori, Accursed has personal interest at stake, overall Accursed + are in favor of Vengeance once you tally 4bear advancements, Haeliel who is his peer vastly prefers Vengeance etc.

None of that has changed. What has changed is that now, Vengeance is just objectively an option that will mitigate Tyrant more and only reason to take Freedom is because, well, you did so earlier and you have a hill to die on.
 
Consider how much Apocryphal Mitigation the Accursed will get from Apo-Chan exerting itself to effective duplicate one of Haeliel's wishes!
 
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