Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
That's the thing.
Hunger cannot repay his debt to the Accursed if he chooses Vengeance.
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A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
Hunger cannot repay his debt to the Accursed if he chooses Vengeance.
[X] Vengeance
- Location
- Louisiana
Actually just flat out wrong. I would definitely consider fully mitigating the tyrants curse as a debt repaid. It'd be insane to consider it anything less. You're making the logical leap that the ONLY way to repay the accursed is by sitting down and shutting the fuck up while the accursed does his thing. Simply not true. Again, we made a promise to repay the debt, that does not mean that we have to give up when the accursed asks us to. There is more work yet to be done, and more that we can do to further the cause. It's risky, but since when has hunger EVER shied away from risk?
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
The Accursed has a specific debt he is asking us to pay. Freedom is our payment of that debt which he actually wants paid. It's not a logical leap at all.
Additionally Freedom has the theoretical potential to reach HCB and achieve vengeance, even if it's a minute possibility. It's not literally zero. If we wanted to be absolutely true to Hunger, the only truly correct option would be to go Freedom (keeping his word to the Accursed) and nevertheless reach HCB despite the marginal odds of doing so.
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- Location
- Louisiana
Again this logic only holds true if you don't consider literally fully mitigating a curse for him to be a debt repaid. There is more than one method to repay a debt, there were no terms set when we made the promise. We told him that we would pay him back for the aid he has given us. Choosing to continue to fight, knowing you can do more, is a valid way to repay that debt. There's simply no arguing that. You can argue that freedom is a better repayment, but not the only one. There's a reason vengeance still gives accursed +s. If it was a betrayal, we would not be seeing that.
The idea that the actually in character hunger thing for him to do is to put down his burdens is just maximum cope. The lower odds are because his life is so much cushier he is not pushed to his limit. He loses access to the lathe of heaven, and no longer has peer level opponents fed to him. That is not the hunger method of growth. The odds are also so absurdly low they don't matter on a narrative satisfaction level. It's low enough that it's literally not possible, R will not even roll for it.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
No, it's invalid. Favors and debts only count when the other person actually calls them in, or if they have already specified what those favors and debts entailed and you fulfill those terms as stated.
You know the whole vote marker nonsense on this quest? We've never accepted 'I'm voting for an option you want, that's the vote marker I owe you settled' or 'By voting for this option I am actually supporting your long term objectives for this quest, fulfilling my vote marker owed to you' as valid arguments, to the point where we've never even attempted them (AFAIK). The favor is like that. The Accursed never stated 'repay the debt by mitigating a full curse', which would be frankly beyond unreasonable, he said 'repay the debt by not being The Forebear ffs'.
As for it being the most in-character Hunger option, well, it is. If you say 'when has risk and astronomically low odds stopped Hunger'? Well then you can bring that back about onto Freedom. When has risk and astronomically low odds stopped Hunger? The odds exist, that's all that matters. So what if they're low?
Also, if we're voting on what benefits The Accursed the most, he has already indicated, via preference, which option benefits him the most. Now of course you can say 'you are wrong', but in that case one can justify basically anything on the basis of 'I know better than you what your true preferences are' which, well, Tyranny ig.
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Birdsie
Sharp Talons Cleave The Worthy
- Location
- Poland
While you guys were busy doing actually productive activities, as well as betraying each other, I was studying Ormulum Lore and made some extra builds.
This first one's a meme build, don't mind it.
The Lord of Steam
[ ] Expressive (4 orbs)
[ ] Final Scion of Water (2 orbs)
[ ] Exemplar (1 orb)
[ ] Naturalization (1 orb)
[ ] Dreams of Distant Fire (+2 orbs if outside the Dominion, +1 otherwise)
[ ] Into the Fire (+3 orbs, alternate insertion point)
A Naturalized Exemplar of the Transcendent Pit, nothing less than a loyal and upstanding member of the Messiah's Elect. That I am a Final Scion of Water is of ultimate irrelevance to the Triumvirate and the citizens of Fire; during the Stormbreak, I proved my loyalty to Fire, as I avenged the General Secretary in slaying the Champions of Thunder, and later on, wiping out the warriors and remnants of my own peoples. I acted as the Messiah's caretaker for a time, owing to my spotless credentials. Now, I am a master of both Fire and Water, and the spare remnants of the hydrous civilization exist as a minor client state of the Metropolis Enkindled, under my control.
In order to better suit my young master's Paradigm, the Element of Water is corkscrewed into Steam, for such is the natural result of Water submitting to Fire. As the Messiah once said, "Fire is for forging." Therefore, in analogue, "Steam is for invention." Its Paradigm utilizes Water and Fire as kindling, creating novelties from the resultant fumes. The Lord of Steam has tremendous powers of steampunk technokinesis, mental enhancement, magical symbiosis, and innovation. It has other corollaries: the Messiah's anime shall have onsens and beach episodes aplenty. The Expression aims to eventually break out of the Pit; if Expression can't do that, nothing can.
Dreams of Distant Fire makes the General my drinking buddy. We shoot the shit.
---
A Random Litanist Ancient With A Mustache-// The Traveler Himself
[ ] A Unified Earth
[ ] The Authority of Celestial Voyages (2 orbs)
[ ] Ancient (3 orbs)
[ ] Dreams of Distant Fire (+2 orbs if outside the Dominion, +1 otherwise)
Don't mind the name of this build. It's my own personal form of revenge for something that's happened to me recently.
Anyway, the Ancient's foremost Litanal expertise is within Reinforcement and Reassurance. Reinforcement is included to heap fine-tunings and improvements ontothe Authority of Celestial Voyages the Expression of the Traveler, making it more like itself, and Reassurance is primarily here to convince everyone that I am actually the Traveler, either with a theme of Freedom or with themeless Reassurance meant to befuddle them. If possible, I'll also grow a most splendid mustache, and when the Transgressor asks why I have a mustache, I'll assure him it's only a temporary experiment, and I am in fact his friend, the Traveler of the Unifiers of the Society for Human Advancement. Ha-ha!
If someone - such as the aforementioned Expressive - notices I don't have an Expression blazing inside my soul and mentions this, I'll simply laugh it off and say that I obviously do, what are they even talking about, before teleporting away and refusing to engage with the conversation on a more serious level.
An even dumber and more immature version adds the Ring of Envy into the mix so that I can seek out a youth with an appropriate knowledge-based Expression, show them the Ring, and then deny them from ever having it. The drawback selected to realize this must be Oathbound, as with Lethe, this build's reasoning collapses, and with Dissident, you can no longer cuck the Traveler. Once the General comes knocking on your door, you can do the classic Traveler move of GTFO'ing.
---
I also contemplated making a Chosen One of Directorate Sorcery oriented on becoming the Akashic Blade, although I swiftly realized it'd almost be identical to Orm's Accession build, save that it'd maybe take on Nine Sun Style instead of Demarcation.
This first one's a meme build, don't mind it.
The Lord of Steam
[ ] Expressive (4 orbs)
[ ] Final Scion of Water (2 orbs)
[ ] Exemplar (1 orb)
[ ] Naturalization (1 orb)
[ ] Dreams of Distant Fire (+2 orbs if outside the Dominion, +1 otherwise)
[ ] Into the Fire (+3 orbs, alternate insertion point)
A Naturalized Exemplar of the Transcendent Pit, nothing less than a loyal and upstanding member of the Messiah's Elect. That I am a Final Scion of Water is of ultimate irrelevance to the Triumvirate and the citizens of Fire; during the Stormbreak, I proved my loyalty to Fire, as I avenged the General Secretary in slaying the Champions of Thunder, and later on, wiping out the warriors and remnants of my own peoples. I acted as the Messiah's caretaker for a time, owing to my spotless credentials. Now, I am a master of both Fire and Water, and the spare remnants of the hydrous civilization exist as a minor client state of the Metropolis Enkindled, under my control.
In order to better suit my young master's Paradigm, the Element of Water is corkscrewed into Steam, for such is the natural result of Water submitting to Fire. As the Messiah once said, "Fire is for forging." Therefore, in analogue, "Steam is for invention." Its Paradigm utilizes Water and Fire as kindling, creating novelties from the resultant fumes. The Lord of Steam has tremendous powers of steampunk technokinesis, mental enhancement, magical symbiosis, and innovation. It has other corollaries: the Messiah's anime shall have onsens and beach episodes aplenty. The Expression aims to eventually break out of the Pit; if Expression can't do that, nothing can.
Dreams of Distant Fire makes the General my drinking buddy. We shoot the shit.
---
[ ] A Unified Earth
[ ] The Authority of Celestial Voyages (2 orbs)
[ ] Ancient (3 orbs)
[ ] Dreams of Distant Fire (+2 orbs if outside the Dominion, +1 otherwise)
Don't mind the name of this build. It's my own personal form of revenge for something that's happened to me recently.
Anyway, the Ancient's foremost Litanal expertise is within Reinforcement and Reassurance. Reinforcement is included to heap fine-tunings and improvements onto
If someone - such as the aforementioned Expressive - notices I don't have an Expression blazing inside my soul and mentions this, I'll simply laugh it off and say that I obviously do, what are they even talking about, before teleporting away and refusing to engage with the conversation on a more serious level.
An even dumber and more immature version adds the Ring of Envy into the mix so that I can seek out a youth with an appropriate knowledge-based Expression, show them the Ring, and then deny them from ever having it. The drawback selected to realize this must be Oathbound, as with Lethe, this build's reasoning collapses, and with Dissident, you can no longer cuck the Traveler. Once the General comes knocking on your door, you can do the classic Traveler move of GTFO'ing.
---
I also contemplated making a Chosen One of Directorate Sorcery oriented on becoming the Akashic Blade, although I swiftly realized it'd almost be identical to Orm's Accession build, save that it'd maybe take on Nine Sun Style instead of Demarcation.
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- Location
- Louisiana
Vote markers are an implicit laid out agreement in which the terms of the deal are clearly stated. One vote, for a vote that the other person chooses later down the line. That is not what happened here. The accursed helped us, and hunger said "I will return this favor", unprompted. There was no agreement, no rules set in stone, it was simply not a part of the transaction. The transaction explicitly was just, we get power in exchange for taking on a portion of the Accursed's burdens. The debt we owe the accursed is something we ourselves established, and it is our own decision to decide how that debt is repaid.
Freedom is not an option about risk and astronomically low odds. There frankly is no risk. It's just absurdly low odds with a comfy relaxing ending. THAT is what makes it not the option hunger would pick in character. Hunger has always been concerned about doing what needs to be done regardless of the risk, regardless of the odds. Freedom hunger no longer is concerned with the endless grind of progression. He's essentially retiring. He gets his happy ending where he no longer has to slog through endless battles with ridiculous odds. It's a happy ending, but in no way is it the option where hunger risks it all to do his uttermost. That is why I say it is absolutely not in character.
As to what benefits the Accursed the most, we've had many discussions on what the Accursed +s actually entail. I cannot understand the motivations of the Accursed, and I cannot tell you exactly why the pluses are allocated a certain way. My honest guess is that Hungers happy ending, the establishment of a small piece of the world he wants enacted, is enough for him to sacrifice the chance of a HCB. But I can't argue that for certain, we can't argue anything for certain. It'd be arguing in circles about the motivation of a being so many levels beyond us.
All I can do is argue that Vengeance is hunger continuing to work in the interest of the Accursed. It's him fulfilling his utmost potential as a cursebearer, with the chance of fully mitigating an entire curse. To me, that seems so relevant that it doesn't make sense to say it's not good for the Accursed. Even if he doesn't mitigate it fully, he'll increase in power so much quicker that he can likely mitigate more than he has with the Tactic. Certainly more than Freedom will. The fact that Vengeance can now be measured in degrees of success only heightens that, it's not a 1% chance Hunger helps him at all, how successful Hunger is determines how much of the Tyrant curse we can peel back.
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Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
Vote markers are backed by nothing other than one's willingness to hold to an agreement between voters. They are completely uneforceable.
Quite similar to this situation, really.
As for benefits Accursed most, look, the Accursed is not allowed to explain his transdimensional hypercosmic thoughts to us as to how an option benefits him. All he can do is indicate preferred actions. What he has done is make an explicit request for us, which seems quite a lot if you think the net effect of that action is neutral or even negative. Like, he is spending actual effort on communicating with us to do this specific thing for him.
You are asserting that the Accursed is basically shooting himself in the foot, which is not an activity that hypercosmic entities can afford to do, especially when in a hypercosmic transdimensional conflict with other near-peer entities.
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- Location
- Louisiana
They are not backed by anything but they are explicitly laid out. They are a transaction, not a personal oath. Again, it's a bad metaphor for the situation. If we had said "I'll stop fighting whenever you want me to" then it would be like a vote marker, but that's just not what happened.
Vengeance also gives Accursed pluses, which if we're using as a guide for what benefits him (which I actually don't think is a 1 to 1 ratio), then Vengeance is not bad for him.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
It's a close enough metaphor for the situation. The Accursed is outright and explicitly calling in on Hunger's promise to him in the Freedom vote itself.
Also, Vengeance is of limited value to the Accursed. That's why it gives a piddly amount of favor. If you go back to the Finality vote, it's worth noting that Inheritance, out of the three options, also does not yield any Accursed Favor. The Accursed' preference for 'Not Forebear' is consistent across updates. Not only that, improved odds of Vengeance success% does not improve it's Accursed Favor return either, indicating that the Accursed is operating on other arenas other than 'Curse Mitigation' or 'more power' for charting his course towards the Victorious World, which Freedom clearly contributes towards in some manner (not necessarily in the form of mitigation).
- Location
- Louisiana
Ok woah, that is a huge stretch. Mitigation consistently gives absurd accursed favor. To imply anything less is so weird to say. Look at any accursed favor option previously, they without doubt always were in regards to curse mitigation. It's the entire reason he gives power to cursebearers in the first place, for mitigation purposes. That's our entire job. Inheritance didn't mitigate anything, it actually gave in to the tyrants curse completely. The opposite of mitigation really.
We will get Accursed favor when we actually mitigate the curse, not when we MIGHT mitigate the curse. It's as simple as that, we won't get pluses for something we have yet to do. Vengeance with full tyrants mitigation would have much more accursed favor than baseline Freedom. Which is why I think Freedom is simply the safe option, the one where hunger risks nothing.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
If that's really the case, then Freedom must provide some kind of major curse mitigation to the Accursed, like, immediately. Of value equivalent to 5 'units' of Vegeance's 'expected' net Curse mitigations.
- Location
- Louisiana
Freedom as presented feels a bit sentimental. It's asking Hunger to rest, as an old friend. Generating a paradise that he wants all of existence to reflect. The fact that this option does not explicitly give any curse mitigation alongside the previously stated points, makes me think the accursed favor here is due to Hunger getting the happy ending. Not due to the 5d chess benefits for his multiverse spanning plan.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
Sure, maybe 1 or 2 or 3 +s worth of sentiment. He did give Hunger 3 AFs at the start of the quest.
Now, however.
10 +s worth of sentiment? That's a lot.
- Location
- Louisiana
It is a truly triumphant moment. A slice of the victorious world, generated for a lucky few. The product of hungers efforts. All of that is true, but I do not believe it hastens the actual final victory as much as hungers continued effort would.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
That may be the opinion of Haeliel, that Forebear Reborn except Aligned with Accursed (?) is best, but the Accursed seems to be of the opinion otherwise. As evidenced by him intervening to make a specific request of Hunger right this moment to avert that very outcome.
I'm as corpulently swollen with pride as the next guy, but implying that the ultimate victory of the Accursed is a deciding factor in the Freedom or Vengeance vote is an inconceivably gross exaggeration of Hunger's importance and capability.
I believe the decision should be based on your preference for the emotional impact, what you would like to see in a final update, and the implications for all the characters involved. Hunger's ability to help the Accursed is a factor, and with recent relevations he even kinda matters, but his relative significance remains infinitesimal.
Do it for Hunger, or Gisena, or even whatshername
I believe the decision should be based on your preference for the emotional impact, what you would like to see in a final update, and the implications for all the characters involved. Hunger's ability to help the Accursed is a factor, and with recent relevations he even kinda matters, but his relative significance remains infinitesimal.
Do it for Hunger, or Gisena, or even whatshername
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- Location
- Peterborough, NH, USA
I'm sure people are tired of hearing me say it, but I think Freedom is better for Tyrant Mitigation than Vengeance. Raw power alone is not the sole factor of Curse Mitigation. Rescinding the Curse in word and spirit should hit harder than word alone.
Turning from the path of Tyranny allows Hunger himself to mitigate his Curse. He's been forbidden from doing that ever since taking Uttermost (which in hindsight makes sense, we got it from Vanreir and the Amarlt are the dregs of a previous Dynasty). But what mitigation for the Accursed can be achieved simply on the strength of Hunger's identity as the Forebear, the Tactic already grants. Anything more requires power. We have WoG regarding the relative odds of further success:
The benefits of Freedom are significant, foremost among them not having to live with a Crowning Curse. But neither path allows us to have our cake and eat it too; if the omniverse bent to the spirit of a relative speck like Hunger's current self, it wouldn't be in such dire need of the Accursed. The chance of completely revoking the Doom is explicitly a benefit of Vengeance. The dichotomy couldn't be clearer: fighting for the Accursed's freedom and the Victorious World, versus freedom for Hunger and claiming a fraction of that happiness himself.Rihaku on Discord said:
Birdsie
Sharp Talons Cleave The Worthy
- Location
- Poland
The Cat Cafe
Location: A Unified Earth
Magic: Practitioner (Cafe Manager) -1, Litanist -2 (Reinforcement, Reciprocity, Reassurance: Comfort Theme) / Labyrinthian -1
Benefits: Exemplar -1
Drawbacks: Lethe +1 / Dissident +1
(The slash denotes a more greedy / expensive variant of the build.)
---
A highly influential cafe manager, the Practice's Acknowledgment bestows comprehensive control over a network of such cafes across the world, allowing effective global teleportation; the manager has control over the interior, even capable of altering the passage of time, in order to derive optimum benefits for the self and one's clientele. Hedonic capabilities are immense, as is the cuteness of the catgirl waitresses. With it come master-level business skills, as well as attendant cooking and catering capabilities of a truly world-class level. Litanist adds the capability to further enhance the comfort and features of the cafes with a mixture of Reassurance and Reinforcement, as well as create more catgirls with Reciprocity and Reinforcement.
In the more expensive variant, the manager becomes a revolutionary against the tyranny of the Unifiers, as they do not support the endeavor of catgirl cafes. So be it, as in the eventual victorious world, all shall live in an incandescent catgirl utopia. The added potential of Labyrinthian makes each cafe into its own glorious pleasure world, with even deeper layers and tunnels between them, a connective tissue spanning the entire Unified Earth, like a second circulatory system, allowing for easy travel and concealment of rebel elements, with a pact struck with the Divisive leaders. No doubt, the Unifiers shall realize the treachery that comes from within the innocuous business, making this a riskier prospect, as the Tyrant's scepter is unsparing.
---
I am addicted to the Ormulum, send help.
Location: A Unified Earth
Magic: Practitioner (Cafe Manager) -1, Litanist -2 (Reinforcement, Reciprocity, Reassurance: Comfort Theme) / Labyrinthian -1
Benefits: Exemplar -1
Drawbacks: Lethe +1 / Dissident +1
(The slash denotes a more greedy / expensive variant of the build.)
---
A highly influential cafe manager, the Practice's Acknowledgment bestows comprehensive control over a network of such cafes across the world, allowing effective global teleportation; the manager has control over the interior, even capable of altering the passage of time, in order to derive optimum benefits for the self and one's clientele. Hedonic capabilities are immense, as is the cuteness of the catgirl waitresses. With it come master-level business skills, as well as attendant cooking and catering capabilities of a truly world-class level. Litanist adds the capability to further enhance the comfort and features of the cafes with a mixture of Reassurance and Reinforcement, as well as create more catgirls with Reciprocity and Reinforcement.
In the more expensive variant, the manager becomes a revolutionary against the tyranny of the Unifiers, as they do not support the endeavor of catgirl cafes. So be it, as in the eventual victorious world, all shall live in an incandescent catgirl utopia. The added potential of Labyrinthian makes each cafe into its own glorious pleasure world, with even deeper layers and tunnels between them, a connective tissue spanning the entire Unified Earth, like a second circulatory system, allowing for easy travel and concealment of rebel elements, with a pact struck with the Divisive leaders. No doubt, the Unifiers shall realize the treachery that comes from within the innocuous business, making this a riskier prospect, as the Tyrant's scepter is unsparing.
---
I am addicted to the Ormulum, send help.
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OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
I have no idea what you're voting for here but if you have a vote on freedom vs vengeance you Nullified it.
It's not unreasonable to assume a large number of enterprising Cursebearers have spent their cheap mitigation on various ways to pool their curse-related problems together, rather than generic bullshit like companions or time off.