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A Simple Transaction I

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An extra week each month we can devote to progression and sating hunger will be massive once we're stuck empire building in real space.

edit: For one thing it's an efficient way to get the specific picks needed for RR.
 
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We also still have Terminator issue that needs to be solved eventually; until we get an opening to do just that, we need, we must make sure Hunger's growth does not stall too much.
 
If our growth starts stalling and we don't have Pillars, we can just dump our Arete into those sweet, sweet Praxis picks. If we can pick up stuff that works well with our build and some Tears enhancements to boost our stamina, I think we'll be absolutely fine.
 
So I guess Bear will become biggest threat if we don't kill the fish at this early stage.

I feel like Armanent is the biggest status enemy that even Lord Protector can not summon.

We suppose to not outscale Armanent pure status easily.


Lord Protector plan probably trap and bait or in true wizard fashion scry and die.


I regret that we don't take Accurse's favor.It will be hilarious if Lord Protecter get Accurse's ire and dying without we lifting finger.
 
runeblue360 said:
If our growth starts stalling and we don't have Pillars, we can just dump our Arete into those sweet, sweet Praxis picks. If we can pick up stuff that works well with our build and some Tears enhancements to boost our stamina, I think we'll be absolutely fine.
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Yep. Full Rank build + Praxis sounds like an interesting path to go down. Rank brings us to nominal parity against armament or similar overpowered shits while Praxis's conceptual effects give us the ability to defeat them...
 
I mean, the point of Rank build is to a) Give us a ton of shirt term power that will get obsoleted by higher tier IST shit at some point, allowing us to be greedy and b) Give us a ton of raw power that can be translated into utility with abilities such as Crimson Flare, Enclosure etc.

Rank build is already where it's supposed to be(with exception of SJUC which want to get at some point to be fully Armament-viable force), so we should work on long term stuff. Pillars for picks, Rune King for boosting our 25ap magics, RR for long term value, RW for massive Curse Reduction, SotS for massive not dying etc.

I'm not unsure if we should get Elixir - while it's by far the coolest Advancement we already have Signs that are basically supercharger Graces anyway.

I think that our general list of priorities should be something like
1. Pillars
2. RW
3. RR
 
If we're doing wishlists, my long-delayed dream of Ruling Ring is at the top. I remember the good old days, when I was bright-eyed and thought that we could grab ++Progression as our first EFB. Reality shattered such fantasies, and power ensured our survival. Now, we have temporarily outrun our own recklessness- the precious is upon us.

Also, the contingent Rank boosts are great value at this point, so buying it piecemeal isn't such a hassle.
 
Wolfy said:
Yeah, but the question is if we actually want to get it. Like, we already have Signs which seem to cover same niche as Graces do, so there doesn't seem to be much point in getting Elixir.
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As Unelemental has pointed out, we won't be getting many (any) additional Signs while we are in the Human Sphere for Priority Two. A stronger argument against Elixir is the way it asks Gisena to take time away from Artificing to design us more graces.

Iirc Elixir wasn't a 25 Arete cost so it is unaffected by the boost from Tower. (I could be wrong.)
 
Elixir wasn't an Evening Sky Advancement at all, so Tower wouldn't have affected it. With Silver it might now count as one, and the 18 Arete cost could be seen as elevating our 7 Arete Element to 25 Arete status, but that's a lot of ifs.
 
Zampano said:
Iirc Elixir wasn't a 25 Arete cost so it is unaffected by the boost from Tower. (I could be wrong.)
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It is a 25 cost (that we get discounted because it replaces vanilla Edeldross). The problem is that it's not an Evening Sky EFB, and those are the only ones that get boosted by tower.

Which is furthering my desire for Pillars honestly. Pillars fills a niche we need (source of picks, source of Decimator targets for a while, giving Hunger a frikin vacation), and gets upgraded from one of our existing EFBs. It's very synergistic.

As for Ruling Ring, I would point out that we need 4 picks for that, and not every fight drops dominions and preeminences. Pillars solves both of those issues, so Pillars is a much better first pick-up then RR, because getting RR will be hard and kinda up to RNG even if we really gun for it, while Pillars is already unlocked and once we get it we can get RR at our convenience.
 
Unelemental said:
Well, Elixir also gives half-step Apocryphal Mitigation and makes Lucent Thorn seek us out as a wielder.
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Yeah, but supercharged Graces are the point of that Advancement. If we already have something that fulfills similar role there's little point in getting Elixir.
Zampano said:
As Unelemental has pointed out, we won't be getting many (any) additional Signs while we are in the Human Sphere for Priority Two.
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That seems like a trivial issue to solve. Without even spending resources on it, just summon messenger gribly or something, who cares.
 
Wolfy said:
Yeah, but the question is if we actually want to get it. Like, we already have Signs which seem to cover same niche as Graces do, so there doesn't seem to be much point in getting Elixir.
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What niche are you thinking of for curiosity's sake? Edeldross's themes barring advancements that expand them or enable them to be stretched are redemption, perfection, restoration, and renewal of cycles.

Compare that to what we've seen so far of Empyrean Signs:

First Sign: Speed booster or teleportation, seems to have a bit of a domination/majesty/omnipresence thematic(Like swift-footed Hermes he outpaces the sunbeam, racing to the furthermost reaches of sky. Where the heavens touch, there is the King of Winter, and none subject to the turning of seasons may hope to forestall his advance. OR As sudden and total as the onset of night. )

Second Sign: Glory as Esoteric Defense or being too indominitable for gravity or perhaps esoteric forces like rank to effect them because they give off really strong gravitational forces themselves(Like Apollo resplendent he sunders all darkness, magnificent and untouchable as the sun unbridled. OR Ineluctable and unconquerable as a neutron star; merely to approach is to be bent into his sway. Hostile gravitation finds little purchase against such deeper might. )

Third Sign: Weather manipulation through domination, Minion summoning through domination, or Fleeting Power through Overwhelming Glory(If the Sky itself is laid across his shoulders, what amounts the defiance of thunder or cloud? OR The Luna Conquerer extends his reach, and within his grasp finds clutched a minion or servitor from beyond the arc of the physical. OR Dawn spilling forth like thunder become light, treachery's hour dispersing like a fearful mirage, only unmerciful glory left in its wake.



The Empyrean Signs themewise seem to be all about domination and glory mixed with Noonday/Evening/Vast Empyrean(Which is probably the sky as a really farking big thing in total) based on what we've seen.
 
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I still really want that weather control. As useful as summons promise to be, it's freaking weather control. Also it just seemed terribly convenient in general in terms of the level of control and the speed of cast though admittedly the cool down was worse. I do hope we can get that at some point or learn to change our signs as needed.
 
Hmm, we were wondering about possible enhancements to Pillars from the Tower EFB, and things like getting access more often (too OP), lengthening our stay (even less likely), receiving a boost to our skill with it, and summoning objects from within came up as possibilities. But on a reread of the EFB's description, it stood out to me that Pillars transports us into the realm of Evening. So an alternate enhancement that Tower could provide might include transporting us into different Realms, like Morning, Noonday, Night, Vast Empyrean... as a replacement of the opportunity to vising the realm of Evening, most likely. They would provide different benefits, like letting us drag enemies in there and giving combat buffs, or offsetting our training malus, or allowing us to affect the outside from within in limited ways. It wouldn't be too much of an enhancement, since we would have to decide between different options each month, but it would be in line with the Tower upgrade and more interesting than a straight-up numbers upgrade.
 
Conjured Blade said:
What niche are you thinking of for curiosity's sake? Edeldross's themes barring advancements that expand them or enable them to be stretched are redemption, perfection, restoration, and renewal of cycles.
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Themes are not important; what is important is that both Signs and Graces give you increasingly powerful "abilities" you can research over time. Their mechanics and, indeed, utility are virtually the same even if some might focus in one area rather than another. Focus itself doesn't matter, as we can't get every possible option anyway, so there is very little practical difference between the two.

Of course, there's always a possibility that they can combine into something greater, but picking mutually redundant abilities and hoping that they work out is not the best play. Progression is not perfect and things can be rendered obsolete - indeed, we put not insignificant amount of effort* into enabling Grace development which we never did and, given the superior alternatives in Praxis and Signs, we will never actually want to do.

*As in Ring Lord/Assault Halo died for it. Rip in pepperoni
 
Wolfy said:
Of course, there's always a possibility that they can combine into something greater, but picking mutually redundant abilities and hoping that they work out is not the best play. Progression is not perfect and things can be rendered obsolete - indeed, we put not insignificant amount of effort* into enabling Grace development which we never did and, given the superior alternatives in Praxis and Signs, we will never actually want to do.
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Ah yes, we'll never use Graces because we have other forms of magic, just like how Nameless never used the Diagram because Cultivation was more powerful and Artifice could also grant utility effects at greater potency.

The fact that Signs and Praxis are good does not mean that Graces are bad. Honestly, we just need to actually take a Grace Development action to show ya'll how good it is. We can't exactly be making statements about Graces being useless if we've never seen one.
 
Wolfy said:
Their mechanics and, indeed, utility are virtually the same even if some might focus in one area rather than another
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I have this idea that grace development is an engineering / invention challenge where each new grace has to be designed from the ground up. Sign development is different: research / archaeology is required to rediscover Signs that seem to already exist. Each option requires narrative downtime, but the choices which improve progress on one track or another are very different.

This is pure speculation, of course.
 
ImperatorV said:
Ah yes, we'll never use Graces because we have other forms of magic, just like how Nameless never used the Diagram because Cultivation was more powerful and Artifice could also grant utility effects at greater potency.

The fact that Signs and Praxis are good does not mean that Graces are bad. Honestly, we just need to actually take a Grace Development action to show ya'll how good it is. We can't exactly be making statements about Graces being useless if we've never seen one.
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Except entire point is that, unlike Trice Great magics, Signs and Graces appear almost completely identical in mechanical sense, which is why we should get something that's not the same as something we already have.

And yes, Signs and Praxis being good means that Graces are bad. That's literally how it works, you compare shit to each other to gauge general amount of value they posses.
Zampano said:
I have this idea that grace development is an engineering / invention challenge where each new grace has to be designed from the ground up. Sign development is different: research / archaeology is required to rediscover Signs that seem to already exist. Each option requires narrative downtime, but the choices which improve progress on one track or another are very different.

This is pure speculation, of course.
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I mean, sure, but if it can be abstracted to time or effort and compared in absolute sense, Signs are likely still superior due to being 25 Arete magic option rather than 7 Arete magic option, and as such any amount of effort spent on Signs is likely to be more efficient.

That's not to say that we can't grab some low hanging Graces, of course, but overall it would seem that investing in Graces by purchasing Elixir is not efficient as we already got Signs. Basically, we would be better served with another 25 Arete magic system that works well with Signs/Praxis rather than upgrading Graces.

There could be some sort of hidden synergy im not seeing, of course, but that's not exactly the gamble I'd take.
 
So, having looked at the Graces from AST 0, if getting elixer or the even cheaper Total Eclipse means their anyway comparable too the one's Seram got, i'd say that comparing choices of first signs to first coalescence graces and so on that I'd take a Grace over a sign literally every time. Some of these included stuff like "Literally fuck around with time" and "Be Skyveil."
 
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There is precisely no reason why we can't develop both Graces and Signs. Even if they are superficially similar, having two sources of effects is better then one source of effects. For example...

Rihaku said:
[ ] Edeldross: This precursor component of findross embodies redemption, perfection, restoration and the renewal of cycles.
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Using the "perfection" component of Edeldross, perhaps we could grant ourselves a bonus to researching signs, or even a way to empower signs. Renewal of Cycles - so many of our Signs work off of time-based limits, refreshing when night falls for example. This could be a way to bypass that.

Alternatively, perfection and restoration could lend themselves to a Grace that allows the bearer to resist Existential Diminishment. Where have we seen an effect like that before, and what does it do...

Alternatively, a Grace that grants enhanced mental stats would be really good for us. Something like Exalted Spirit except we don't needs picks or Arete for it, just time spent on Grace Development. Have we seen any indication that Signs can give us that?

Or, how about that memetic +30% attack speed grace. With our existing Agility and other bonuses, that adds up to a lot of extra attacks, and against truly dangerous opponents how fast we can get Artful Thorns off can matter a hell of a lot.

Simply put, Graces can potentially do a lot of things that are valuable to us. Discounting them because "Signs are a more expensive system" is, frankly, stupid and a waste of resources. Unless we get a vote for Graces and they're all not worth the time invested, we should not assume that they are useless.

Furthermore, I should point out that even if Graces are weaker then Signs, the fact that they are weaker might mean that they are easier to get. As long as they are effective for their relative cost, they're worth investing in.
 
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ImperatorV said:
Furthermore, I should point out that even if Graces are weaker then Signs, the fact that they are weaker might mean that they are easier to get. As long as they are for their relative cost, they're worth investing in.
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At the very least, spending actions to see the relative costs in time, arete, opportunity, ect to researching both of these and finding out how they stack up relatively seems pretty prudent rather then just comparing the fairly diffuse power of the the Tower EFB that wasn't exactly entirely represented in power by getting the signs and that of our surgecraft element without Silver then throwing up our hands seems pretty prudent.
 
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