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A Little Trouble in Big China - A Chinese Warlord Quest

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Well, probably. But hopefully this war is a slog, not a quick one. Being able to plan more and see interesting battles sounds more fun than one faction getting a 10.0 and another a 0.0 and the war finishing in just a couple of turns.
 
DanBaque said:
Well, probably. But hopefully this war is a slog, not a quick one. Being able to plan more and see interesting battles sounds more fun than one faction getting a 10.0 and another a 0.0 and the war finishing in just a couple of turns.
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True, and since you manage to fight Japan to a standstill seems to suggest, that is what might very well happen.
 
Mortenkam said:
True, and since you manage to fight Japan to a standstill seems to suggest, that is what might very well happen.
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Not that much; I think most of Japan's forces were in Manchuria. But yes, since the C-KMT is mostly on the defensive, it looks like the war could take a while. Hopefully Japan doesn't jump in in the middle of it.
 
DanBaque said:
Not that much; I think most of Japan's forces were in Manchuria. But yes, since the C-KMT is mostly on the defensive, it looks like the war could take a while. Hopefully Japan doesn't jump in in the middle of it.
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Worst comes to worst, you may be able to use martyrdom as propaganda to inspire desertions and sow seeds for future revolution. While the Qing military is modernizing, the political institution it serves is still an embarrassment. It's still headed by an unaccountable despot of quasi-foreign descent who personally murdered his minister so as to stand by and let the Japanese overrun the northeast to harm his political rival, not the hardest to churn up folks against. After all, you're not just promoting a regime but also an idea. Your regime's actions will kill the idea in some peoples' hearts and cause it to sprout it in others', so long as new people believe enough in that idea to take the place of the fallen you have not truly died.

Look no further than our own world's CPC to see this, they spent all of their early history getting their teeth kicked in OTL compared to the relative huge success in this thread. Practically exterminated in the cities that their urban vanguard model of revolution had painted as the key to success, pretty much abandoned by Moscow which saw them as an unreasonable reach vs. working with the KMT and subverting it someday. Some scant thousands getting winnowed down constantly by massacres and fighting their way out of hostile encirclements just to break out and survive in the middle of nowhere. Still managed to end up with the big prize in the end.

Thus far Dadarian has been pretty generous about letting elements of defeated factions slip away and conspire to win some other day, right, @VoidZero?
 
Kipeci said:
Worst comes to worst, you may be able to use martyrdom as propaganda to inspire desertions and sow seeds for future revolution. While the Qing military is modernizing, the political institution it serves is still an embarrassment. It's still headed by an unaccountable despot of quasi-foreign descent who personally murdered his minister so as to stand by and let the Japanese overrun the northeast to harm his political rival, not the hardest to churn up folks against. After all, you're not just promoting a regime but also an idea. Your regime's actions will kill the idea in some peoples' hearts and cause it to sprout it in others', so long as new people believe enough in that idea to take the place of the fallen you have not truly died.

Look no further than our own world's CPC to see this, they spent all of their early history getting their teeth kicked in OTL compared to the relative huge success in this thread. Practically exterminated in the cities that their urban vanguard model of revolution had painted as the key to success, pretty much abandoned by Moscow which saw them as an unreasonable reach vs. working with the KMT and subverting it someday. Some scant thousands getting winnowed down constantly by massacres and fighting their way out of hostile encirclements just to break out and survive in the middle of nowhere. Still managed to end up with the big prize in the end.

Thus far Dadarian has been pretty generous about letting elements of defeated factions slip away and conspire to win some other day, right, VoidZero?
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Yes, that is one of the reasons I'm supporting partisans. By definition, the quest will be over when China is united, which means that the Qing or K-KMT (if they win) would have to take on Japan, which if there is still rebellion in the countryside, would be a very large opportunity. It's also why the Tongmenghuei was created; if the only partisans are communist, should the C-KMT be lost, there would be no partisans to continue through.
 
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Kipeci said:
Thus far Dadarian has been pretty generous about letting elements of defeated factions slip away and conspire to win some other day, right, @VoidZero?
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Stop blowing my cover you goon. :mad:
We should look more at big ear and his amazing skill in dodging death squad.:V
Which I'm sure is worth quite a bit if you bring him to your masters.:ogles:
 
@Qing players:
General Liu rifle - Wikipedia
It was probably the first Chinese semi-automatic rifle.
Designed ca. 1914
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It's worse than the Howell, but still, it's both semi-automatic and bolt-action (can switch). Unfortunately, it needs certain machinery to be produced that was OTL gotten from the USA, so production will bemuch less than the Hanyang, unless you get Americans/great powers to build a factory in China.
 
VoidZero said:
Stop blowing my cover you goon. :mad:
We should look more at big ear and his amazing skill in dodging death squad.:V
Which I'm sure is worth quite a bit if you bring him to your masters.:ogles:
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Alas, Zongchang is in transit to Red Mongolia, not the Macanese casinos. I'm actually unsure about the particulars of our relation, I think the last update said that we do minor amounts of business?
 
Kipeci said:
Alas, Zongchang is in transit to Red Mongolia, not the Macanese casinos. I'm actually unsure about the particulars of our relation, I think the last update said that we do minor amounts of business?
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Between Jehol and Manchuko? None as far as i'm aware.

Between Manchuko and Japan? Probably majority of your business are Japanese backed, since they were there from the beginning.

DanBaque said:
@Qing players:
General Liu rifle - Wikipedia

It's worse than the Howell, but still, it's both semi-automatic and bolt-action (can switch). Unfortunately, it needs certain machinery to be produced that was OTL gotten from the USA, so production will bemuch less than the Hanyang, unless you get Americans/great powers to build a factory in China.
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I had given up on locally designed rifles and would rather import designs for local production. Which probably translates to massive imports expense before getting enough relationship points to get licences. OTL Zuolin had sunk huge chunk of budget for up to date rifle design and production but those were all seized during war.
 
VoidZero said:
Between Jehol and Manchuko? None as far as i'm aware.

Between Manchuko and Japan? Probably majority of your business are Japanese backed, since they were there from the beginning.



I had given up on locally designed rifles and would rather import designs for local production. Which probably translates to massive imports expense before getting enough relationship points to get licences. OTL Zuolin had sunk huge chunk of budget for up to date rifle design and production but those were all seized during war.
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Nah, I meant between Yuesheng and Zongchang.
 
kilopi505 said:
What do you folks got vs. the non-state actor that did nothing vs. you folks?
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I was thinking that Zongchang doesn't have anything against Yuesheng, but neither is he supportive. I was thinking the what happens with the latter don't have much impact on the former, so in VoidZero's hypothetical of turning in Yuesheng to the Japanese the thought was that it'd be benefit for little cost. It doesn't really matter since they're on opposite sides of China from each other, and I think upon re-reading it seems like the Tongs and the northeast are doing some minor business with each other after all. I imagine that it's pretty easy for you to slip in your spies in given that Zongchang has been encouraging motley bandit armies full of sketchy people of questionable loyalty to join forces with him, not exactly a rigorous vetting process.

I think more so than these guys across the empire that Yuesheng has to worry about the consequences of his actions. For instance, the Japanese know generally where he is but do not care enough to send their death squads; continuing to act as an irritating thorn in their sides by affecting their agents seems likely to invite further scrutiny that could endanger Yuesheng or his operations in Japanese-ruled territory. Some actions of his seem to rely on cooperation with the heavily communist-infiltrated C-KMT; simultaneously, he's trying to coordinate anti-communist action and publishing a book about how he's going to fight against it and why he thinks it's bad. Obviously you want to keep your options open and curry some degree of lenience from everyone so that you can continue without being purged, but if you slip up you run the risk of offending everyone and getting the hammer brought back down just as you're starting to recover.
 
@Dadarian Something I have been wondering about, when you use the word divisions in the overview of the different armies in China, what does you mean?
It cannot be a certain size of unit, since Zhang and his 75,000 regulars is roughly three divisions, while Wu Peifu and his 80,000 regulars is roughly six divisions.
My personal guess, is that you use it to show how the men are organized, like Zhang has his men divided into three divisions, while has Wu has his men in six different divisions, because of the different warlords serving under him, thought that would be a bit weird, when the Imperial Guard is a half division.
 
@Dadarian, do you mind if I ask after the status of Changchun in this timeline?

In our timeline the city was rather firmly under Japanese control from very early on. Much of it was redesigned to fit the idea of a grand colonial city, with millions of yen invested into it every year; after Manchukuo was created by the Japanese Empire, this city was 'turned over' to the puppet state and renamed to Hsinking, representing its status as the new capital city. Needless to say, Japanese control over it had not actually diminished.

Now we have a Manchukuo in this universe as well, but with different circumstances and apparently a much looser degree of control. Does Zongchang's 'administration' (such as it is... I think it's likely some unholy combo of warlord lieutenants, Zongchang's family, bribed remnants of Xueliang's bureaucracy and other opportunists so far as I could make from the update) center on this area under Japanese supervision, or are they based in some other city? Is there anything other than nominal control over such places?

I appreciate any response, this is a pretty minor faction all things considered so if you're too busy or have other folks prioritized then don't worry about responding.
 
Terrafirma said:
[X] Tang Jiyao
Plan: Guandong Offensive


  • Contact with Prince Chun and Wu Peifu will continue to coordinate the effort of banishing the communists from the Middle Kingdom.
  • Occupied areas will be exploited for resources strictly for the war effort with cooperation sought with collaborationist, sympathizers and even defectors switching sides who no longer share the ideals of the CKMT/CPC for growth of the army and intelligence gathering.
  • Captured areas of strategic worth will be fortified utilizing defense in depth in the event of a surprise attack or determined enemy counter-attack.
  • Li Liejun: Advance methodically into the pocket in the north on the border with the Qing, coordinate with them on defeating the enemy forces in the area. Once the objective is achieved he is to consolidate his gains.
  • Tang Jiyao: Keep his forces in reserve to remain flexible to assist either Li in the relative north or Chiang for a southern push. He is to be deployed to counter any other surprises.
  • Lu Rongting: Await further reinforcement, until then make probing attacks with Liu to test enemy defenses and lines, conduct night raids.
  • Liu Xiang: Await further reinforcement, until then make probing attacks with Lu to test enemy defenses and lines, fortify positions in the event of a counter attack.
  • Chiang Kai-shek: Once Lu, Liu and Bai begin their attack, Chiang will strike from Hunan to either exploit a thinned out line or to take pressure off the other pincer. Until then he is to act as a reserve force to maintain strategic flexibility in the event of unforeseen circumstances be it in the pocket on the Qing border or even the Japanese. Chiang is to consolidate his position until the offensive begins.
  • Bai Chongxi: Further secure Xikang working with collaborationist and loyalists, once a functioning administrative governance is established with his second in command acting as temporary governor he is to take his best men and head for Guandong to assist Lu Rongting and Liu Xiang.
  • All units on the Qing border are to remain on alert.
  • Strategic points such as industrial areas, weapon caches and supply lines are the priority to deny the enemy forces fighting capacity and lower morale.
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I like your plan and I was wondering if I could put forward additions to your plan. For example on the public relations and propaganda front publicly at least could we spread a proclamation along the lines of what I wrote out below. It could help use in several ways for example we are in for a bloody siege of Changsha if we can not sway some of the forces defending it to our side. Also do you have any ideas about what you want to do on the foreign relations department to fix the damage that has been done to the Republic reputation with everyone but the USSR.
[X] For a true Republic.
-[X] The first goal is to make it clear to everyone with a proclamation that we are moving to save the Republic from the communist cancer that has infected it. We may be collectively know as Warlords but we have done more to expanded and defended the Republic then those who took advantage of the late Presidents poor health to manipulate him. The communists who have taken control have no desire to bring Freedom and prosperity to the people of China, this is shown clear by the fact that they can not have a discussion with anyone who disagrees with them on policy with out turning to violence and causing a riot. The reason we did not participate in the last set of elections is because they were a farce in all but name with anyone who did not fallow the new party line having no chance of winning. There is also the fact that we are still fighting a war to bring down the corrupt and hid bound Qing dynasty which was allowed to resurrect it self because of past failures and mistakes on the part of everyone in the KMT. It is for this reason that we call on everyone in the Republic to join us in our quest to save it from those who would destroy it from the inside out. Everyone who joins with us will be welcomed with open arms as the brothers and sisters they have all ways been.
 
Stewart9 said:
I like your plan and I was wondering if I could put forward additions to your plan. For example on the public relations and propaganda front publicly at least could we spread a proclamation along the lines of what I wrote out below. It could help use in several ways for example we are in for a bloody siege of Changsha if we can not sway some of the forces defending it to our side. Also do you have any ideas about what you want to do on the foreign relations department to fix the damage that has been done to the Republic reputation with everyone but the USSR.
[X] For a true Republic.
-[X] The first goal is to make it clear to everyone with a proclamation that we are moving to save the Republic from the communist cancer that has infected it. We may be collectively know as Warlords but we have done more to expanded and defended the Republic then those who took advantage of the late Presidents poor health to manipulate him. The communists who have taken control have no desire to bring Freedom and prosperity to the people of China, this is shown clear by the fact that they can not have a discussion with anyone who disagrees with them on policy with out turning to violence and causing a riot. The reason we did not participate in the last set of elections is because they were a farce in all but name with anyone who did not fallow the new party line having no chance of winning. There is also the fact that we are still fighting a war to bring down the corrupt and hid bound Qing dynasty which was allowed to resurrect it self because of past failures and mistakes on the part of everyone in the KMT. It is for this reason that we call on everyone in the Republic to join us in our quest to save it from those who would destroy it from the inside out. Everyone who joins with us will be welcomed with open arms as the brothers and sisters they have all ways been.
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Uhm...the voting period has already ended last week or so.

You're 1 week too late. But try again next update?
 
I return after a long absence, employed and full of zest. Sorry about that, it wasn't my intention to pull a Hoffa.

I'm just wondering if the former players (former lurkers too) would be interested in returning to this Quest, or let dead Quests lie.
 
I, for one, would most definitely want to keep playing in this Quest. Hope the others do too, it was very fun!
 
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