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A Champion in Earth Bet [Worm/Original Setting]

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Here's a big question: at this point, what if she's expecting the unexpected? Not necessarily exactly what we do with fate manipulation, but, you know, just expecting something to happen she can't see happening?

Whose to say she doesn't make backup plans, based on the simple idea of: something going stupidly wrong?
 
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I agree with @nnarn, with the slight difference that my intuition is to prefer Audie Murphy to Clear the Board because I'm disinclined to give her time to respond.
 
[X] Operation Audie Murphy Tips His Hat: The Simurgh is still guessing what your fate-manipulation power can do. So far, in this battle, you've only used it to help yourself… but you can also use it to give a villain a really unfortunate moment. And getting accidentally hit by your own automated superweapon, leaving you vulnerable to an attack by a pissed-off divine avatar, would be a terribly unlucky incident, wouldn't it?

Pros: Doesn't waste time, and in fact turns the Simurgh's likely current plan to your advantage. Likely impossible for her to see it coming. Cons: Requires one use of fate-manipulation to pull off, and for you to avoid becoming collateral damage yourself.
 
YEAH! Suck on that! The tables have turned!

Ok, let's think about this. She's currently running away. She can't build more tech, her telekinesis won't be able to do much to stop us, she can't control the auto-weapons and she can't travel between dimensions by herself, and she's currently loosing. What would be the logical thing she's going to do?

In my mind, she's going to run for the teleporter and get the hell out, leaving us here temporarily until someone can either come get us, or she can build more weapons and gear from the tinkers on Bet to use on us. So, we need to stop that, right the hell now, and we have two ideal tools to do so: Her own weapons. They are sufficiently powerful to help wreck her shit, she won't be able to do much to stop it due to fate manipulation and it will help stop her from running away. If we can kill her thanks to this, we can take the teleporter back to Bet with Leet and celebrate our victory.
 
I'm not sure clearing the board is an ideal solution. I mean it's solid.

But after a certain point, the Simurgh is probably just going to run away and prepare for another attempt.

Which I suppose is acceptable, but I'd really rather not try a Round 2 when she knows we can do things like read her mind.




On the plus side, she has no reason to think we've got only one more solid shot of luck manipulation. So there's that.




An advantage to withholding Andie Murphy from this fight: the Simurgh does not know we can use it to screw other people over. This is good, because if we do have a Round 2 against her, we will still have a good trick in reserve.
 
[X] Operation Audie Murphy Tips His Hat: The Simurgh is still guessing what your fate-manipulation power can do. So far, in this battle, you've only used it to help yourself… but you can also use it to give a villain a really unfortunate moment. And getting accidentally hit by your own automated superweapon, leaving you vulnerable to an attack by a pissed-off divine avatar, would be a terribly unlucky incident, wouldn't it?
 
The best scenario i can see from [ ] Operation Clear The Board is that we go and destroy the superwepons, then return to the smurf, scan her and use fate-manipulation to hit her core with our most powerfull blast that may or may not kill her. Or we can select [X] Operation Audie Murphy Tips His Hat and use our fate-manipulation to "force" the superweponsand and our charged blast to atleast hit the general area of her core and have am even better chance of killing her. That is my best oppinion in any case :p
 
The Simurgh cannot accomplish bullshit against us without resources. In this case, by resources, I mean tinkertech, someone to mindrape, or pre-existing neuroses to exploit. Lacking those, she's limited to her equivalent of hand-to-hand - telekinesis with asteroids and other random detritus, enhanced by her thinker powers. While she's good at hand-to-hand, she's not good enough to beat The Avatar, especially not while he's got a use of Fate Manipulation spare. Furthermore, if we can get her to that state, time becomes on our side since we recover Fate Manipulation charges on something like a daily basis, while nothing else tactically significant occurs until a week from now - and she can't comprehend anything relating to Fate Manipulation, so her entire strategy would be badly skewed.

That's roughly the scenario we get to with a successful Clearing of the Board. I think she still has a few other minor tinkertech knickknacks around, but nothing big enough to matter when we're not making stupid mistakes. We can beat her without ever going below our current number of Fate Manipulation charges, so we always have a massive margin for error.

On the other hand if we go with tipping Murphy's hat, we have a significant chance of pulling of an immediate win. Only significant though, because we don't know where her core is (IIRC we've determined that it's not in her head or her torso... leaving arms, legs, and wings), and the maneuver is fairly complicated to begin with and our Fate Manipulation would be doing double duty, making sure she got hit and making sure we *didn't* get hit. If we failed that roll... she'd probably be damaged, but a damaged Endbringer retains full effectiveness, especially the Simurgh who doesn't actually rely on her limbs for anything. We might or might not be damaged, might or might not have lost the initiative, and would be running on fumes as far as our Fate Manipulation goes. Not good odds.

It looks to me like a choice between a very high chance of winning a slow fight, or a medium chance of winning a quick fight. We're not in that big a hurry. We shouldn't risk our existence without a better reward than speeding up the battle.
 
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naarn said:
The Simurgh cannot accomplish bullshit against us without resources. In this case, by resources, I mean tinkertech, someone to mindrape, or pre-existing neuroses to exploit. Lacking those, she's limited to her equivalent of hand-to-hand - telekinesis with asteroids and other random detritus, enhanced by her thinker powers. While she's good at hand-to-hand, she's not good enough to beat The Avatar, especially not while he's got a use of Fate Manipulation spare. Furthermore, if we can get her to that state, time becomes on our side since we recover Fate Manipulation charges on something like a daily basis, while nothing else tactically significant occurs until a week from now - and she can't comprehend anything relating to Fate Manipulation, so her entire strategy would be badly skewed.

That's roughly the scenario we get to with a successful Clearing of the Board. I think she still has a few other minor tinkertech knickknacks around, but nothing big enough to matter when we're not making stupid mistakes. We can beat her without ever going below our current number of Fate Manipulation charges, so we always have a massive margin for error.

On the other hand if we go with tipping Murphy's hat, we have a significant odds of pulling of an immediate win. Only significant though, because we don't know where her core is (IIRC we've determined that it's not in her head or her torso... leaving arms, legs, and wings), and the maneuver is fairly complicated to begin with and our Fate Manipulation would be doing double duty, making sure she got hit and making sure we *didn't* get hit. If we failed that roll... she'd probably be damaged, but a damaged Endbringer retains full effectiveness, especially the Simurgh who doesn't actually rely on her limbs for anything. We might or might not be damaged, might or might not have lost the initiative, and would be running on fumes as far as our Fate Manipulation goes. Not good odds.

It looks to me like a choice between a very high chance of winning a slow fight, or a medium chance of winning a quick fight. We're not in that big a hurry. We shouldn't risk our existence without a better reward than speeding up the battle.
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I find this summation mostly true, but you're forgetting that if the battle goes poorly enough for the Simurgh, and she can see that, she may cut her loses and run.
 
[X] Operation Audie Murphy Tips His Hat: The Simurgh is still guessing what your fate-manipulation power can do. So far, in this battle, you've only used it to help yourself… but you can also use it to give a villain a really unfortunate moment. And getting accidentally hit by your own automated superweapon, leaving you vulnerable to an attack by a pissed-off divine avatar, would be a terribly unlucky incident, wouldn't it?

Because
sun tzu said:
There's a device that blasts a ray capable of turning 50% of matter in an area into antimatter… and it is located on the Moon's surface.
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sounds like exactly the kind of weapon to hit an Endbringer with if you have no need to worry about collateral damage. Who cares how much mass she has, if half of it is now antimatter?
 
HymnOfRagnarok said:
I find this summation mostly true, but you're forgetting that if the battle goes poorly enough for the Simurgh, and she can see that, she may cut her loses and run.
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She can't. We can't either. We've destroyed the controls, so there are only two ways to leave this battlefield now:

1. we can get rescued by Cauldron (she's unlikely to be able to trick them in to doing so)
or
2. we can wait a week for the automatic exit to occur, and camp the exit point.

edit: or 3. we can go consult Leet, and have a small chance of being able to figure out how to build a new remote control for the dimensional transfer machine. She can't do that though.

If the Simurgh runs away for longer than a week, she's stuck. Same for us, if we didn't have Doormaker (edit: and Leet) as a backup.
 
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Tsotate said:
Because

sounds like exactly the kind of weapon to hit an Endbringer with if you have no need to worry about collateral damage. Who cares how much mass she has, if half of it is now antimatter?
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We've already demonstrated against her tougher brother that our blasts are good enough. And I'm not 100% sure that such a beam will work on the stuff Endbringers are made out of - I'd give it good odds, but still...
 
naarn said:
She can't. We can't either. We've destroyed the controls, so there are only two ways to leave this battlefield now:

1. we can get rescued by Cauldron (she's unlikely to be able to trick them in to doing so)
or
2. we can wait a week for the automatic exit to occur, and camp the exit point.

If the Simurgh runs away for longer than a week, she's stuck. Same for us, if we didn't have Doormaker as a backup.
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....Pardon?

I'm sorry, this logic makes no sense. The Simurgh can shift dimensions on her own. So she can run away from this dimension and keep running, if need be. Even if we get the ability to chase her, she can still keep running and sooner or later she'll probably give us the slip. By bombing population centers if nothing else. Once she does, she can try again with a fresh arsenal.

I have no idea how what you've said relates to this.
 
HymnOfRagnarok said:
....Pardon?

I'm sorry, this logic makes no sense. The Simurgh can shift dimensions on her own. So she can run away from this dimension and keep running, if need be. Even if we get the ability to chase her, she can still keep running and sooner or later she'll probably give us the slip. By bombing population centers if nothing else. Once she does, she can try again with a fresh arsenal.

I have no idea how what you've said relates to this.
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Here's my logic:
1. She used tinkertech to get here. She requires pre-existing tinkertech or physical access to a tinker in the same plane & dimension to do this. We have removed her access to her tinker, and destroyed the piece of tinkertech she needed to control the machine that brought both of us here. So she can no longer engage in inter-dimensional/planar travel of any kind.
2. She built in an escape hatch after a one week delay in to this battlefield, presumable to cover the contingency case where we destroy her access to the inter-dimensional movement machine, as we in fact have already done. She would not have done this is she could move inter-dimensionally on her own, because it could only help The Avatar (who can't) in that scenario. This confirms that the logic from #1 was correct.
 
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naarn said:
Here's my logic:
1. She used tinkertech to get here. She requires pre-existing tinkertech or physical access to a tinker in the same plane & dimension to do this. We have removed her access to her tinker, and destroyed the piece of tinkertech she needed to control the machine that brought both of us here. So she can no longer engage in inter-dimensional/planar travel of any kind.
2. She built in an escape hatch after a one week delay in to this battlefield, presumable to cover the contingency case where we destroy her access to the inter-dimensional movement machine, as we in fact have already done. She would not have done this is she could move inter-dimensionally on her own, because it could only help The Avatar (who can't) in that scenario. This confirms that the logic from #1 was correct.
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As I recall, she can dimensionally shift by her own power. Which is something you seem to not even consider as a possibility; that's a pretty big hole in your speculation.
 
HymnOfRagnarok said:
As I recall, she can dimensionally shift by her own power. Which is something you seem to not even consider as a possibility; that's a pretty big hole in your speculation.
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You might consider addressing point #2 there?
As in, if she can move interdimensionally on her own, why did she build in an automatic exit to the battlefield that could only help The Avatar in that scenario? I mean, it's possible that she has that power and just needed the tinkertech to move us in addition to herself... but I don't see why you would assume such. We *know* she built tinkertech to move her/us around because we just read that from her mind. It's possible that she can also do that without tinkertech, but I don't see any reason to assume that, and point #2 gives a pretty decent reason to assume otherwise unless I'm missing something.
 
naarn said:
You might consider addressing point #2 there?
As in, if she can move interdimensionally on her own, why did she build in an automatic exit to the battlefield that could only help The Avatar in that scenario? I mean, it's possible that she has that power and just needed the tinkertech to move us in addition to herself... but I don't see why you would assume such. We *know* she built tinkertech to move her/us around because we just read that from her mind. It's possible that she can also do that without tinkertech, but I don't see any reason to assume that, and point #2 gives a pretty decent reason to assume otherwise unless I'm missing something.
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Well I can't find the source for being able to do shift herself (although she does just pop into existence from behind the moon, so she certainly had something going for her from the very beginning), although she may just not want to reveal she has that ability. It may be some fanon from memory. So I guess I have to concede the point, unless I or someone else does find it.
 
naarn said:
Here's my logic:
1. She used tinkertech to get here. She requires pre-existing tinkertech or physical access to a tinker in the same plane & dimension to do this. We have removed her access to her tinker, and destroyed the piece of tinkertech she needed to control the machine that brought both of us here. So she can no longer engage in inter-dimensional/planar travel of any kind.
2. She built in an escape hatch after a one week delay in to this battlefield, presumable to cover the contingency case where we destroy her access to the inter-dimensional movement machine, as we in fact have already done. She would not have done this is she could move inter-dimensionally on her own, because it could only help The Avatar (who can't) in that scenario. This confirms that the logic from #1 was correct.
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1)She can dimensionally shift by her own power.
This is canon; she used it to move the Travellers from Earth Aleph to Earth Bet before building the warpgate that shunted the contents of Cauldron's base into Madison, Wisconsin.

2)She built an escape hatch because of the same reason she built extra weapons in this star system despite expecting the first blow to kill Avi: contingencies.
Building an exit for example, allows her to control the battlefield, because she knows what Avi will aim at, and nothing stops her from trashing it once he gets there.
 
uju32 said:
1)She can dimensionally shift by her own power.
This is canon; she used it to move the Travellers from Earth Aleph to Earth Bet before building the warpgate that shunted the contents of Cauldron's base into Madison, Wisconsin.
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That was the example I thought I remembered, but technically I suppose we can't know the exact mechanism by which she does it, if she really can just remotely teleport things from afar.
 
uju32 said:
2)She built an escape hatch because of the same reason she built extra weapons in this star system despite expecting the first blow to kill Avi: contingencies.
Building an exit for example, allows her to control the battlefield, because she knows what Avi will aim at, and nothing stops her from trashing it once he gets there.
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No. She cannot predict use of Fate Manipulation. She cannot predict us reading her mind. Therefore she cannot predict us finding out about the exit hatch.

uju32 said:
1)She can dimensionally shift by her own power.
This is canon; she used it to move the Travellers from Earth Aleph to Earth Bet before building the warpgate that shunted the contents of Cauldron's base into Madison, Wisconsin.
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...maybe? I don't think we don't have a lot of knowledge of exactly what tinkertech she built when in that incident, outside of what she deliberately showed to the Travellers.
 
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