The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

Piren'e Colass said:

any human warship since the Speranza.

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Not a good thing to use, the Speranza wasn't a famous ship to the Imperium. Wasn't even especially famous to the admech save as an Arcmechanicus.

Instead use the example of the Gloriana class like the Amphion, Hrfankel or even the Vengeful spirit as they're in the same weight class even if the Legend out performs all of them in ability significantly as we'd be more likely to know about them.

Andres110 said:

@Shard, Enjou is telling you to do something contradictory. He's at once saying the Primaris Execution Forces should be put at rest and also saying that they should be held in reserve. They can only do once at a time. Specify what you want them to do. Don't assume that Rotbart will take the optimal course of action; Durin's not a player. (This is exactly like the time you assumed Rotbart would launch deathstrikes because it would be the optimal thing to do, even though he wouldn't unless you wrote it in.) Unless you want them to rest this turn with no chance of doing anything else, write "keep them in reserve". I recommend doing the same for Aria.

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"In reserve" and "resting" is pretty much the same damn thing here. They aren't acting, they aren't in combat, so they're effectively at rest even if they're ready to enter battle at a moment's notice - heck, that's life on Avernus on a normal day. The correct answer here is to just not write in anything regards to forces we don't want to use in some specific way, and let the battle play out. As long as they're not committed to something else then N-Steps Ahead means we can pull them into whatever conflict zone we want whenever the enemy enters it. We really need to stop dragging out these turns by trying to micromanage everything and telling specific units that its time to wipe their own asses. Hell, it's why Durin said he's going to change how he handles the psyker actions whenever the next war happens.

Enjou said:

"In reserve" and "resting" is pretty much the same damn thing here. They aren't acting, they aren't in combat, so they're effectively at rest even if they're ready to enter battle at a moment's notice

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You are wrong. "Resting" is different from "reserve" in that even if there came a point in the battle where they would be useful, the PEFs will do nothing if they're in "rest" mode. It's the mode you use when you want to be certain they'll be fully fresh the next turn and it's the default mode. If you want them in "reserve" or "standby", you HAVE to specify that they're in that mode, just like with the deathstrikes a few turns ago. The deathstrikes would not have been launched unless a "standby" action was included in the plan, n Steps Ahead or no. Durin confirmed this.

The weight of evidence is on my side. It's on my side because I actually have precedent backing me up. You have no precedent and no evidence that suggests you are correct. I ask that you provide some if you continue to claim that "resting" and "reserve" are the same.

Andres110 said:

You are wrong. "Resting" is different from "reserve" in that even if there came a point in the battle where they would be useful, the PEFs will do nothing if they're in "rest" mode. It's the mode you use when you want to be certain they'll be fully fresh the next turn and it's the default mode. If you want them in "reserve" or "standby", you HAVE to specify that they're in that mode, just like with the deathstrikes a few turns ago. The deathstrikes would not have been launched unless a "standby" action was included in the plan, n Steps Ahead or no. Durin confirmed this.

The weight of evidence is on my side. It's on my side because I actually have precedent backing me up. You have no precedent and no evidence that suggests you are correct. I ask that you provide some if you continue to claim that "resting" and "reserve" are the same.

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The order for the Deathstrikes was specifically to fire the LEF ones during Magma Wyrm attack and to fire others at the enemy psykers if their Void Shields went down, not to keep them in reserve or standby. Here's the specific lines from that plan:

--[] Fire LEF Deathstrikes on the Abomination Main Army during the Magma Wyrm attack.
--[] Fire Deathstrikes at Abomination psykers if the Void Shields are taken down by the Magma Wyrm attack.

Specific orders, specific uses, specific conditions. Not general ones to keep them in reserve or standby (neither of which are orders to fire them to begin with). So I don't find this particular example a particularly compelling argument for your case here.

We shouldn't need to order every single unit not actively engaged in combat to be "in reserve" or "in standby", because that's stupid. The point of streamlining the battle system from the old days is to make it so we don't have to micromanage every single regiment or unit. Literally all of our troops not actively engaged should be considered in reserve, in standby, or whatever you want to call it for the purposes of N Steps Ahead. You only need to specify something when you actually want to use those units for something, like with the Deathstrikes. In this case, for the Primaris Execution Force, I'm saying "do nothing, leave them available for later", which means nothing should have to be written in. We're not even close to the point where they'll be kicking down the doors of the Gubernatorial Palace (that'll take at least another update or two), so we don't need to get to the nitty gritty of which elite units are guarding Lin at the moment.

Enjou said:

The order for the Deathstrikes was specifically to fire the LEF ones during Magma Wyrm attack and to fire others at the enemy psykers if their Void Shields went down, not to keep them in reserve or standby. Here's the specific lines from that plan:

--[] Fire LEF Deathstrikes on the Abomination Main Army during the Magma Wyrm attack.
--[] Fire Deathstrikes at Abomination psykers if the Void Shields are taken down by the Magma Wyrm attack.

Specific orders, specific uses, specific conditions. Not general ones to keep them in reserve or standby (neither of which are orders to fire them to begin with). So I don't find this particular example a particularly compelling argument for your case here.

We shouldn't need to order every single unit not actively engaged in combat to be "in reserve" or "in standby", because that's stupid.

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Psyker choirs are special. For our regular units we don't need to order them to be in reserve or whatever, but the rules for choirs are different. If we want to use them, we write in what we want to use them for. If we want them to rest, we write nothing in. If we want them to do a thing if specific conditions are met and rest otherwise, we need to write that in.

Primaris Execution Forces act like choirs. Writing in nothing will mean they'll rest for a turn and do nothing. If we want them to potentially do something in the turn, we need to write in that we want them to potentially do something. The reason for this is because of psyker fatigue. If they do a conditional action (in this case act as a reserve force alongside our elites to counter the actions of enemy elites, as you want them to do), that will cause fatigue, giving them a penalty next turn. In order to avoid them having a penalty next turn, they have to rest this turn. It would be tedious to write "this choir will rest this turn" for every choir you want to rest, so resting is a default action, i.e. what happens if nothing is written for them. The only way they'll do anything this turn is if you write in something for them to do this turn, even if that thing is conditional with an order to rest if the conditions aren't met.

tl;dr: If you want psykers to rest and do nothing but rest this turn, write in nothing. If you want them in reserve to counter enemy elites or be used in n Steps Ahead, write it in. If the latter is the default action - the action that happens when there is no write-in - then we would have to write in every time we want a choir to do nothing but rest. These rules are only for psyker choirs (which Primaris Execution Forces count as) because of psyker fatigue - a rule specific to them and them alone.

Andres110 said:

Psyker choirs are special. For our regular units we don't need to order them to be in reserve or whatever, but the rules for choirs are different. If we want to use them, we write in what we want to use them for. If we want them to rest, we write nothing in. If we want them to do a thing if specific conditions are met and rest otherwise, we need to write that in.

Primaris Execution Forces act like choirs. Writing in nothing will mean they'll rest for a turn and do nothing. If we want them to potentially do something in the turn, we need to write in that we want them to potentially do something. The reason for this is because of psyker fatigue. If they do a conditional action (in this case act as a reserve force alongside our elites to counter the actions of enemy elites, as you want them to do), that will cause fatigue, giving them a penalty next turn. In order to avoid them having a penalty next turn, they have to rest this turn. It would be tedious to write "this choir will rest this turn" for every choir you want to rest, so resting is a default action, i.e. what happens if nothing is written for them. The only way they'll do anything this turn is if you write in something for them to do this turn, even if that thing is conditional with an order to rest if the conditions aren't met.

tl;dr: If you want psykers to rest and do nothing but rest this turn, write in nothing. If you want them in reserve to counter enemy elites, write it in. If the latter is the default action - the action that happens when there is no write-in - then we would have to write in every time we want a choir to do nothing but rest. These rules are only for psyker choirs (which Primaris Execution Forces count as) because of psyker fatigue - a rule specific to them and them alone.

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Ok, I see the disconnect here, so let me explain my position here so you might understand :
1. Right now I see no particularly good uses for the Primaris Execution Force. As such, they should be kept on reserve until something that they'd be particularly useful for comes up. So yes, I want nothing written in this turn for the Primaris Execution Force.
2. We don't know every possible permutation of enemy action, so I'm not going to advocate doing something absurd like throw up a bunch of if-then-else statements for every possible situation. That's what N Steps Ahead is for anyways. Such conditionals are only useful if you have a specific situation in mind, like firing LEF Deathstrikes at the enemy when you know something is going to be distracting them.
3. The next update should cover the crash landing and the initial push into the city, and will conclude at some important juncture where we've got enough new information to make decisions on what to do. The climactic final battle between our heroes and the enemy heroes isn't going to be happening this update, and before such a battle happens we should have a chance to determine which forces we want with us there guarding Saint Lin, and N Steps Ahead means that any force not already committed elsewhere that could logically be able to be there can be made to be there. So when I speak of keeping the Primaris Execution Force in reserve for countering enemy elites in such a battle, I'm speaking of that in the context of updates that aren't this next one, and as such the current plan doesn't need to mention them. When that turn comes, they will need to be mentioned.

Enjou said:

Ok, I see the disconnect here, so let me explain my position here so you might understand :
1. Right now I see no particularly good uses for the Primaris Execution Force. As such, they should be kept on reserve until something that they'd be particularly useful for comes up. So yes, I want nothing written in this turn for the Primaris Execution Force.
2. We don't know every possible permutation of enemy action, so I'm not going to advocate doing something absurd like throw up a bunch of if-then-else statements for every possible situation. That's what N Steps Ahead is for anyways. Such conditionals are only useful if you have a specific situation in mind, like firing LEF Deathstrikes at the enemy when you know something is going to be distracting them.
3. The next update should cover the crash landing and the initial push into the city, and will conclude at some important juncture where we've got enough new information to make decisions on what to do. The climactic final battle between our heroes and the enemy heroes isn't going to be happening this update, and before such a battle happens we should have a chance to determine which forces we want with us there guarding Saint Lin, and N Steps Ahead means that any force not already committed elsewhere that could logically be able to be there can be made to be there. So when I speak of keeping the Primaris Execution Force in reserve for countering enemy elites in such a battle, I'm speaking of that in the context of updates that aren't this next one, and as such the current plan doesn't need to mention them. When that turn comes, they will need to be mentioned.

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I have some things to say in response to this, with the first being a rule clarification.

Enjou said:

We don't know every possible permutation of enemy action, so I'm not going to advocate doing something absurd like throw up a bunch of if-then-else statements for every possible situation. That's what N Steps Ahead is for anyways.

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1. That is not what N Steps Ahead is for. N Steps Ahead selects the optimal composition of force for any given mission. What it does not do is provide missions, determine scale (if applicable), or free up committed units. Automatically countering enemy action is done, but it's not because of N Steps Ahead that it's done. N Steps Ahead just helps with the auto countering.
2. Writing in nothing for a choir is not a lack of commitment, it's a commitment to resting. If you have a choir rest, N Steps Ahead will not assign them to a mission, even if the optimal composition for the mission requires them.
3. If you want a choir to do nothing unless something "particularly useful" for them comes up, you have to write that in. Example: "[] Choir will rest/do nothing unless something particularly useful for them comes up." That allows them to be used by N Steps Ahead. Otherwise, see 2.
4. If you want to commit a psyker choir to resting and doing nothing but resting on a given turn, check their exhaustion level. If it's 1 or 0, you are using them sub-optimally. Have them Deny the Witch - or indeed anything - for half a turn. Doing so is objectively and purely better as it will still decrease their exhaustion level by 1. If you instead want them to potentially do something that turn (such as countering a permutation of the enemy plan), see 3.
5. A nitpick.

Enjou said:

We don't know every possible permutation of enemy action

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Actually we do. We stole their plans.

Enjou said:

So yes, I want nothing written in this turn for the Primaris Execution Force.

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If you want them to absolutely nothing this turn (N Steps Ahead will absolutely not use them this turn if so), have them Deny the Witch for half a turn. If you want them to do nothing unless something particularly useful comes up, write that in. (N Steps Ahead will potentially use them this turn if so.)

*Headaches*

So can someone tell me what the leading plans are since the tally is messing up on me?

Shard said:

*Headaches*

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( ＾ᴗ＾)ノ" headpats

NotteBoy97 said:

So can someone tell me what the leading plans are since the tally is messing up on me?

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This is the only plan with any real amount of votes:

Shard said:

[X] Plan Minimal Damage
-[X] Attempt to destroy incoming warships- This will either massively damage or destroy a couple of the Battleships, reducing the number of breaches you have to deal with
-[X] Deploy at a long distance- This will ensure that your forces can get to the Battleship well after they land, giving the emeny room to expand but ensure that none of your men are killed by the landing.
-[X] Rely on Regulars- This force should be able to easily handle the enemy stormtroopers and slow down Astartes and Sisters as well as inflict some damage to them. This will make a slight impact on your reserves.
-[X] Keep all of your elites in reserve to counter enemy elites. -This will ensure that you have enough elites to counter the Abomination Elites but will weaken the general defences, allowing the enemy to expand their footholds more easily.
-[X] Psykers
--[X] Trolls will continue reinforcing Dis to minimize damage.
--[X] Both Telekinetic Choirs to reinforce the Void Shields over Dis to reduce damage.
--[X] Lulana and both Daemonology Choirs on full counterspelling.
--[X] Both Biomancer Choirs to support Troops.
--[X] Tamia, both Telepath Choirs and Sirens on Counter-telepathy.
--[X] Ridcully, Xavier and Pyromancer Choir 1 to Scry-and-Fry, targeting enemy psyker choirs.
--[X] 1st Diviner Choir and Pyromancer Choir 2 on Scry-and-Fry, targeting enemy psyker choirs.
-[X] Other
--[X] Trap the areas where the Abomination will crashland.
--[X] Continue EW on Abomination communications.
--[X] Lend Black Crystal Necklace to Tamia.
--[X] If we succeed excessively (Consult Abomination plans), fall back as appropriate so the Abomination does not immediately summon the 1st Circle Angyl.

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Inserted tally

Wut.

[X] Plan Easing Up
-[X] Attempt to inflict as much damage on the warships as possible
-[X] Deploy at a long distance
-[X] Rely on Regulars
-[X] Keep all of your elites in reserve to counter enemy elites.
-[X] Psykers
--[X] Trolls will continue reinforcing Dis to minimize damage.
--[X] Both Telekinetic Choirs to reinforce the Void Shields over Dis to reduce damage.
--[X] Lulana and both Daemonology Choirs on full counterspelling.
--[X] Aria to dispel for half a turn.
--[X] Ridcully and 1st Diviner Choir to spend half a turn improving on the crashlanding locations.
--[X] Both Biomancer Choirs to Deny the Witch for half a turn.
--[X] Tamia, both Telepath Choirs and Sirens on Counter-telepathy.
--[X] Both Pyromancy Choirs to Deny the Witch for half a turn.
--[X] Xavier held along with the reserve elites.
--[X] Primaris Executioner Forces held along with the reserve elites.
-[x] Other
--[X] Trap the areas where the Abomination will crashland.
--[X] Continue EW on Abomination communications.
--[X] Lend Black Crystal Necklace to Tamia.
--[X] If we succeed so much that the point where they decide to summon the First Circle is too close, pull back our troops a bit and allow the enemy to advance.

Right, gotta update the plan. Sorry Han.


[X] Plan Primaris Reserves
-[X] Attempt to inflict as much damage on the warships as possible
-[X] Deploy at a long distance
-[X] Rely on Regulars
-[X] Keep all of your elites in reserve to counter enemy elites.
-[X] Psykers
--[X] Trolls will continue reinforcing Dis to minimize damage.
--[X] Both Telekinetic Choirs to reinforce the Void Shields over Dis to reduce damage.
--[X] Lulana and both Daemonology Choirs on full counterspelling.
--[X] Both Biomancer Choirs to support Troops.
--[X] Tamia, both Telepath Choirs and Sirens on Counter-telepathy.
--[X] Ridcully, Xavier and Pyromancer Choir 1 to Scry-and-Fry, targeting enemy psyker choirs.
--[X] 1st Diviner Choir and Pyromancer Choir 2 on Scry-and-Fry, targeting enemy psyker choirs.
--[X] Primaris Executioner Forces will rest/do nothing unless something particularly useful for them comes up.
-[X] Other
--[X] Trap the areas where the Abomination will crashland.
--[X] Continue EW on Abomination communications.
--[X] Lend Black Crystal Necklace to Tamia.
--[X] If we succeed excessively (Consult Abomination plans), fall back as appropriate so the Abomination does not immediately summon the 1st Circle Angyl.

Primary differences are that ships are being maximally damaged rather than destroyed and PEFs are held in reserve rather than resting to potentially deal with Titans or Space Marines or what have you. Same as what the elites in reserve are doing.

Andres110 said:

This is the only plan with any real amount of votes:

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I was afraid of that. Like isn't it obvious that successfully destroying the crux of the Abomination's last hail mary plan (the battleships) would cause them to immediately summon the First Circle? So why is the leading plan attempting to destroy them?

[X] Plan Primaris Reserves

[X] Plan Primaris Reserves
-[X] Attempt to inflict as much damage on the warships as possible
-[X] Deploy at a long distance
-[X] Rely on Regulars
-[X] Keep all of your elites in reserve to counter enemy elites.
-[X] Psykers
--[X] Trolls will continue reinforcing Dis to minimize damage.
--[X] Both Telekinetic Choirs to reinforce the Void Shields over Dis to reduce damage.
--[X] Lulana and both Daemonology Choirs on full counterspelling.
--[X] Both Biomancer Choirs to support Troops.
--[X] Tamia, both Telepath Choirs and Sirens on Counter-telepathy.
--[X] Ridcully, Xavier and Pyromancer Choir 1 to Scry-and-Fry, targeting enemy psyker choirs.
--[X] 1st Diviner Choir and Pyromancer Choir 2 on Scry-and-Fry, targeting enemy psyker choirs.
--[X] Primaris Executioner Forces will rest/do nothing unless something particularly useful for them comes up.
-[X] Other
--[X] Trap the areas where the Abomination will crashland.
--[X] Continue EW on Abomination communications.
--[X] Lend Black Crystal Necklace to Tamia.
--[X] If we succeed excessively (Consult Abomination plans), fall back as appropriate so the Abomination does not immediately summon the 1st Circle Angyl.

NotteBoy97 said:

I was afraid of that. Like isn't it obvious that successfully destroying the crux of the Abomination's last hail mary plan (the battleships) would cause them to immediately summon the First Circle? So why is the leading plan attempting to destroy them?

[X] Plan Primaris Reserves

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We'll only destroy/deflect 2 or 3 battleships, 4 on a crit, per Durin.

e:

Durin said:

as a note no matter what you are not going to destroy or defect more then 2 or 3 of the ships, 4 on a crit

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[X] Plan Minimal Damage

Shard said:

We'll only destroy/deflect 2 or 3 battleships, 4 on a crit, per Durin.

e:

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The only reason we'd want to destroy battleships is to reduce breaches. We don't care about breaches. We have enough military power to hard-stop all of them, we're just choosing not to. What we should care about is the weapons on their ships, which can do attrition damage to us - something we want to avoid. Since we're having diviners kill psykers, the best we can do is pick the maximum damage option.

[X] Plan Primaris Reserves

Shard said:

We'll only destroy/deflect 2 or 3 battleships, 4 on a crit, per Durin.

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You do realize that 2 or 3 battleships represents a third or half of the battleships (not counting the three battlebarges) the Crusade is sending right? Like the lead general isn't even confident that even if all ships hit that he'll kill Lin so why would he think he'll be able to succeed with less? But to make sure I'm not making any major assumptions I'll ask Durin about it.

@Durin

1. From their plans what will the General do if we destroy some of the battleships? Will he go straight to First Circle summoning?
2. Also would damaging the battleships greatly cause a similar reaction?

2 or 3 in this case is likely with Ridcully with both Choirs and selecting the Deflect option, and also having Pyromancers and Telekinetics supporting the weapons fire on their battleships.

Shard said:

2 or 3 in this case is likely with Ridcully with both Choirs and selecting the Deflect option, and also having Pyromancers and Telekinetics supporting the weapons fire on their battleships.

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The exact number is irrelevant. The reason why we'd want to select the "destroy battleships" is to reduce breaches. The number of breaches are irrelevant. What we should be looking to do is reducing the amount of damage those ships can do to us, which doing the most damage is best at since it hits their weapon batteries.

I can see the logic in more breaches equating to more Abomination forces we can grind away.

Changed.

[X] Plan Easing Up

What's the 40k term for "earth-like world"? Terra-like wouldn't work, I think, because it's a hive world.