On the one hand, Nixeu has a point. On the other hand, if we worry too much we'll be paralyzed by our worry and slowed down by taking every precaution possible when we should really be taking reasonable risks and decisive actions to ensure we get whatever advantages we can.

On the third hand, we really should be focused on coming up with cool extras for Phenom and choosing his theme song. :V
 
Well, first I'd like to inform you that the maneuver we executed in that operation was called a "backwards advance" and it is completely different from retreating, and there is absolutely no similarity between it and running away. :V
Obviously. You were just advancing to a more defensive, advantageous position-- one that was several hundred kilometers away.

Second, Sword-Class Kaiju have a known record of fucking us up. You unveiling a Sword-Class that can control Gravity while we're functioning at a sub-optimal level thanks to fighting against three Cat IIs and a Cat IV, while two probably ranged-attack-capable Cat IIIs and a Cat IV are running to join the clusterfuck that operation quickly devolved into, is an excellent reason to advance backwards at top speed all the way back to your base. :V
Also true. I did hype Anaklusmos up a lot in his appearance. So I guess that's kinda my fault. Though, since I am playing the villain as well, it's kinda intentional... eh, I'll drop the issue there.

You may be overestimating his power. Fyr kinda runs the show, all Murphy can do is fuck with RNG.
And even then, the only ones that you really have to worry about are your own rolls (and sometimes not even those, if you remember the reroll I forced during Noah's recovery). I know how to keep the narrative flowing properly on my end.

Twice, that I remember? And one of those was entirely our fault.
Jagdhund's been taken down once (twice, if you count her self-KO vs. Diesel), while Tacit's been downed three times (though since Ascalon didn't actually Incapacitate them, you could say it's just two times). Assuming I'm remembering right, of course.

In any case...

On the third hand, we really should be focused on coming up with cool extras for Phenom and choosing his theme song. :V
Listen to this man.

I'm kinda meh on the whole them song concept in general, tbh.
...though to be fair, this is also a fair position. Extras are an optional thing for the most part-- you don't have to do stuff with them.
 
On the one hand, Nixeu has a point. On the other hand, if we worry too much we'll be paralyzed by our worry and slowed down by taking every precaution possible when we should really be taking reasonable risks and decisive actions to ensure we get whatever advantages we can.

On the third hand, we really should be focused on coming up with cool extras for Phenom and choosing his theme song. :V
All excellent points, boss. See, this is why you're the guy in-charge. Also, because the rest of us were unwilling to do the paperwork. But also because you're good at your job. /RP

More seriously, you're right. We do what we can, and we hope for the best, without letting the worst-case scenarios dictate everything we do. It's just useful when contingency planning, and to a limited degree when doing cost-benefit analysis. Especially for high-risk proposals. Like, ya know, raiding a freaking Breach. The last Breach raid caused the apocalypse when it failed. I think a little pessimism on my part is warranted. Especially if we're proposing locking expanding our holdings behind it.

Edit: It's not even really high-risk, high-reward. Our gains would mostly be political, with maybe some gains to morale. Given that we no longer have broadcast television, and aren't in contact with most of the world, those are pretty small potatoes. Now, raiding Oblivion Bay, on the other hand...
I'm kinda meh on the whole them song concept in general, tbh.
I kinda am, except it's the only part I could possibly contribute to, given that I have very unrefined visual aesthetic taste/skills. I do, however, listen to a lot of music, and have an above-average sense of pitch. Much to my pain when I hear people sing off-key.
And even then, the only ones that you really have to worry about are your own rolls (and sometimes not even those, if you remember the reroll I forced during Noah's recovery). I know how to keep the narrative flowing properly on my end.
Yeah, yeah. You are still the Kaiju Masters, though. Plus, Noah dying would have been narratively inconvienent and stupid. A Jaeger falling in combat, however, is narratively thrilling. Especially with a huge evacuation as Gojira the Kaiju advances on the defenseless city. Plus, having a fight in the ruined city would be awesome, from a narrative standpoint.

...Wait, who's side am I on again?
 
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tbf it was less that the breach raid caused it and more that it failed to prevent it.

Yeah, pretty much.

Didn't really matter if the final assault on the breach happened, the apocalypse was going to try to happen anyway.

Just like the Kaiju War started without mankind having to do anything to kickstart it.

And lets keep in mind that in the canon version of things the breach raid did make thing better rather than make things worse.
 
[X] Motivation: CHOKESLAM THE APOCALYPSE

[X] Pitch Black w/Bright shiny Silver highlights, accents, and markings

[X] Shoulder Decal: "Spiked Crest"

[X] Theme Song: "Dancd With The Devil", Breaking Benjamin
 
[X] Motivation: CHOKESLAM THE APOCALYPSE

[X] Pitch Black w/Bright shiny Silver highlights, accents, and markings

[X] Extra Details: Shoulder decal

@Fyrstorm since everyone is proposing different theme songs wouldn't it be best if you just choose the one you like best out of the bunch we posted? I mean, it's not like we voted on Tacit and Jagdhund's theme songs in the first place.
 
tbf it was less that the breach raid caused it and more that it failed to prevent it.
I dunno. I would argue it was probably the wrong move overall. Or, at least, a very risky one. The Kaiju Masters seem to be nothing if not patient. It seems like they were content to try and wear humanity down, until humanity started to figure out their plans and secrets. I mean, they only had the one portal, for decades, despite being able to open more. Seems to indicate a desire to conserve their resources. I suspect they wouldn't have pulled something so big and resource intensive if not somehow forced.

Plus, it was a last-ditch effort, while the Jaegers still had public opinion on their side, and the resources to launch the assault. And they knew they'd pushed the Kaiju Masters' buttons, too.
Yeah, pretty much.

Didn't really matter if the final assault on the breach happened, the apocalypse was going to try to happen anyway.

Just like the Kaiju War started without mankind having to do anything to kickstart it.

And lets keep in mind that in the canon version of things the breach raid did make thing better rather than make things worse.
Yes, because that was the correct narrative move. Militarily...eh. Sweeping tactical moves to try and affect massive strategic change usually don't work out so well, and thus are generally last-resorts. In this case, I can see it. But it's one of those things that you don't do if you can help it. And usually, only if it'll win you serious gains, or, preferably, the war.

But, for us, that ship has sailed. The apocalypse happened, and now we're putting the pieces back together, which is a completely different scenario. Honestly, I think it's best to consider this less a war, and more a resistance movement. The war was lost. Now, we're rebels, attempting to reclaim our homeland. Well-equipped rebels, with very nice fortifications and good R&D behind us, but rebels nonetheless.

Looking at it from that perspective, I don't think we should assault the local enemy stronghold/beach-head, head-on, without enough firepower to make it a sure thing. It's tempting, to be sure. But patience wins asymmetrical wars and rebellions, not reckless action. Many a would-be resistance was ended because they got too impatient, and hit a target they shouldn't have. Their soldiers outnumber ours, and each one of ours we lose hurts us significantly more than losing theirs hurts them.

Not to mention that they have also have other, closer, less defended 'bases'. Remember, their goal is to Anteform Earth. If we stop the spread of their organisms, and kill them off before they could possibly become Kaiju, we hurt their bottom line. Why not hit the soft targets, before trying to hit a hard one? Especially when the hard one is really likely to put a target on your back.

So, what do I say we do? What we've been doing. We've been going at it fairly well. It's fairly logical for a resistance group to try and form alliances, gain territory, establish supply lines, go for quality over quantity, whittle away at the opponent, etc. I think the first two are pretty important, though. We're still a pretty small force, when all is said and done. Elite, certainly, but small. Making allies and expanding our production base are excellent ways to compensate for that flaw.

[X] Motivation: CHOKESLAM THE APOCALYPSE

[X] Pitch Black w/Bright shiny Silver highlights, accents, and markings

[X] Extra Details: Shoulder decal
 
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@Fyrstorm since everyone is proposing different theme songs wouldn't it be best if you just choose the one you like best out of the bunch we posted? I mean, it's not like we voted on Tacit and Jagdhund's theme songs in the first place.
...yeah, I'll probably just do that. I'll also probably swap around Tacit and Jagdhund's themes with other stuff eventually as well, cause it could be a lot better.
 
I dunno. I would argue it was probably the wrong move overall. Or, at least, a very risky one. The Kaiju Masters seem to be nothing if not patient. It seems like they were content to try and wear humanity down, until humanity started to figure out their plans and secrets. I mean, they only had the one portal, for decades, despite being able to open more. Seems to indicate a desire to conserve their resources. I suspect they wouldn't have pulled something so big and resource intensive if not somehow forced.
Did you miss the- Oh wait that's right you haven't actually seen the movie.
Ummm do you mind spoilers?
 
I dunno. I would argue it was probably the wrong move overall. Or, at least, a very risky one. The Kaiju Masters seem to be nothing if not patient. It seems like they were content to try and wear humanity down, until humanity started to figure out their plans and secrets. I mean, they only had the one portal, for decades, despite being able to open more. Seems to indicate a desire to conserve their resources. I suspect they wouldn't have pulled something so big and resource intensive if not somehow forced.

Plus, it was a last-ditch effort, while the Jaegers still had public opinion on their side, and the resources to launch the assault. And they knew they'd pushed the Kaiju Masters' buttons, too.

What do you expect humanity to do? Just sit around and wait for the Kaijumasters to just give up? While said Kaijumasters were very much in the process of winning?

This is not a war we win on defense. The only way we win the Kaiju War is through finding opportunities to take offensive action.
 
This is not a war we win on defense. The only way we win the Kaiju War is through finding opportunities to take offensive action.
To be more precise, this is a war we win by striking at strategic targets while defending our own. The Mount Saint Helens Breach, for examplem is one such target, and closing it, followed by hunting down the Kaiju in our region, will most definitely make the area safer in the long term.

Humanity in Pacific Rim was forced to fight a defensive war because the one strategic target they knew about and could strike, the Breach in the Pacific, could not be destroyed thanks to a then-unknown defense mechanism. It's telling that when we discovered how to bypass that defense the Kaiju Masters rushed the first Cat V Kaiju to defend it, because we could suddenly win the war with a decisive strike.

Now, on our case, the defensive battles we fight are for the sake of gaining time to build up our forces so we can actually succeed at striking those strategic targets with minimal losses. Actually striking those targets requires us to take risks and make dangerous choices, and even make a gamble or two sometimes, same with every battle.
 
Our QM is irrelevant to this issue. Unless Fyr wants to start fudging rolls, probability is that, eventually, things will go pear-shaped. They very nearly have, multiple times, when the dice turned against us. The solution to that is to be prepared for when things go pear-shaped, and have a plan in place.

Unless Fyr wants to start fudging rolls, that's more than enough to drop one of our Jaegers. It's happened a few times so far. We've usually just had another Jaeger on hand. Remove that life-line, and things could get sticky, fast. Hence my attempts to establish a life-line.

That said, it's entirely probable we won't need it. But I've had more than a few bad experiences where I assumed that, and I was bitten in the ass. Once burned, twice shy, as they say. Better to have the emergency plan and never use it, than to need it, and not have it.

Edit: Is it obvious I read a lot of military SF written by former soldiers/people who extensively study military history yet? Or that I like military history myself?
It kind of is, and I think you're running a lot further into that "genre" than everything else around you.

Having said that, I do not disagree with the basic principle of having backup plans, at all. Those are good.
 
Did you miss the- Oh wait that's right you haven't actually seen the movie.
Ummm do you mind spoilers?
Not really. Probably have already gotten them.
What do you expect humanity to do? Just sit around and wait for the Kaijumasters to just give up? While said Kaijumasters were very much in the process of winning?
Nope. But it was still risky. More it the point, had the entire Wall of Life debacle not happened, I suspect they wouldn't have been pushed to that point. We're not in the same position they were, and we don't need to take the same risks.
This is not a war we win on defense. The only way we win the Kaiju War is through finding opportunities to take offensive action.
...No, that's actually a pretty good strategy, here. At least, for the moment. Every Kaiju we kill cost the some amount of resources, and gives us more resources. We're literally hurting them just by playing defensively. We're slowly bleeding them dry. It's a fairly decent tactic, in assymtrical warfare. Not the usual method of doing it, but this war isn't exactly super conventional anyway. This let's us build up our forces, so we can actually accomplish something.

Given that this is quite literally a turf-war, our goal should be reclaiming as much land as possible, and eliminating all the crap they have growing in that territory. If we slowly take over more and more territory, keep it clear, etc, while also boosting others and helping them to do the same, we should reverse quite a lot of the damage that's been done, and the progress the enemy has made towards their goals.

To be more precise, this is a war we win by striking at strategic targets while defending our own. The Mount Saint Helens Breach, for examplem is one such target, and closing it, followed by hunting down the Kaiju in our region, will most definitely make the area safer in the long term.
Agreed. But that shouldn't be our next move. We still kinda need time to build up our forces.
Humanity in Pacific Rim was forced to fight a defensive war because the one strategic target they knew about and could strike, the Breach in the Pacific, could not be destroyed thanks to a then-unknown defense mechanism. It's telling that when we discovered how to bypass that defense the Kaiju Masters rushed the first Cat V Kaiju to defend it, because we could suddenly win the war with a decisive strike.

Now, on our case, the defensive battles we fight are for the sake of gaining time to build up our forces so we can actually succeed at striking those strategic targets with minimal losses. Actually striking those targets requires us to take risks and make dangerous choices, and even make a gamble or two sometimes, same with every battle.
Sure. I completely agree. But taking the Breach shouldn't be a requirement for expanding. It's too big a leap, from out current position, barring massive aid from our allies. War might involve risk-taking, but it's the measured risk-taking of a (good) professional gambler. You don't take bad bets if you can possibly help it. And I've yet to hear a decent reason why we absolutely must take Mount Saint Helens in the near-futuret, or to get a second city. Which seems to mostly be Jawa's thing, admittedly.

That said, I'm not sure we consider the same things 'strategic targets'. I personally consider every piece of Anteformed land a strategic target. Their goal is to change our planet. Stopping that from happening, on as wide as scale as we can manage, should be our top priority. The fact that it's possible that some Kaiju are born in such places makes that even more of a priority, IMO.

Considering those as strategic targets, there are a number of locations we could take/raze, before going after the Breach. They'd be softer targets, and they'd provide us with some amount of resources, to boot. And we're going to have to cleanse them anyway, at some point. Let's handle what we can handle easily, before we push on the hard stuff.
It kind of is, and I think you're running a lot further into that "genre" than everything else around you.
You say that like a different perspective is a bad thing. I am sorry if it's getting annoying, but it's a way of thinking often useful for situations like this one. Admittedly, I may be going a tad heavy on jargon. But I thought I was being fairly clear. If I'm not, just ask me what I mean.

Edit: Most important bits of terminology:
Tactics: planning/methods for winning individual battles
Strategy: Long-term planning, what fights you must win, lose, larger actions, focused on winning the war, not individual battles.
Assymetrical warfare: when one of two sides is smaller, significantly more poorly equiped, and/or generally with fewer resources. Rebellions, revolutions, and uprisings generally fall into this category.
 
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Not really. Probably have already gotten them.
okay so long story short, the apocalypse wasn't triggered, it was scheduled. All that time the kaiju masters spent with just one breach was building up momentum, widening the hole, softening us up for the actual invasion. Every time a kaiju appeared, the next one would show up faster, be a little bigger and meaner. The reason the assault on the breach was attempted when it was was due in no small part to the fact that if they waited any longer they'd be having kaiju popping out of there every couple minutes.
There's nothing at all that indicates the kaiju masters were forced to do... anything, really.

Edit: also, you've mentioned that we're hurting the kaiju masters every time we kill a kaiju but, like... their industry outstrips ours phenomenally. They have entire planets/dimensions/whatever, we have the greater seattle area. They are literally employing the "drown them in bodies" tactic with things the size of skyscrapers. A war of attrition won't go in our favor.
 
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okay so long story short, the apocalypse wasn't triggered, it was scheduled. All that time the kaiju masters spent with just one breach was building up momentum, widening the hole, softening us up for the actual invasion. Every time a kaiju appeared, the next one would show up faster, be a little bigger and meaner. The reason the assault on the breach was attempted when it was was due in no small part to the fact that if they waited any longer they'd be having kaiju popping out of there every couple minutes.
There's nothing at all that indicates the kaiju masters were forced to do... anything, really.
...You know, I don't really know why I expected the writers of Pacific Rim to understand logistics or strategy. Or to think through the Kaiju Masters' plans. That's...I've heard worse, but it's got flaws. At least, given what I've learned from this quest. To the point where I suspect it got AU'D a bit here.
 
...You know, I don't really know why I expected the writers of Pacific Rim to understand logistics or strategy. Or to think through the Kaiju Masters' plans. That's...I've heard worse, but it's got flaws. At least, given what I've learned from this quest. To the point where I suspect it got AU'D a bit here.
ISTR that the film's director, in an interview, described Pacific Rim as being more akin to a sports movie than to MilSF -- more specifically, I remember him metaphorically comparing the film's protagonist to the "40-year-old rookie" type of character, who has passion but perhaps is past his physical prime, and therefore an underdog. Naturally, the genre being what it is, the underdogs emerge victorious in the face of overwhelming odds.
 
...No, that's actually a pretty good strategy, here. At least, for the moment. Every Kaiju we kill cost the some amount of resources, and gives us more resources. We're literally hurting them just by playing defensively. We're slowly bleeding them dry. It's a fairly decent tactic, in assymtrical warfare. Not the usual method of doing it, but this war isn't exactly super conventional anyway. This let's us build up our forces, so we can actually accomplish something.

You severely miscalculate the Kaijumasters.

You severely underestimate what the Kaijumasters have to work with and you severely overestimate our standing compared to them and just how much we are actually hurting them by killing their Kaiju.

You think we're bleeding them dry? They have an entire universe to pull resources from. We have run of a city and its surrounding territory to work with.

And you think that we are bleeding them dry?

The Kaijumasters could probably send Kaiju at us like they have been and we could successfully fight them off till we've all died of old age and been replaced by an entire new generation and we still wouldn't be even close to bleeding them dry.


Given that this is quite literally a turf-war, our goal should be reclaiming as much land as possible, and eliminating all the crap they have growing in that territory. If we slowly take over more and more territory, keep it clear, etc, while also boosting others and helping them to do the same, we should reverse quite a lot of the damage that's been done, and the progress the enemy has made towards their goals.

That said, I'm not sure we consider the same things 'strategic targets'. I personally consider every piece of Anteformed land a strategic target. Their goal is to change our planet. Stopping that from happening, on as wide as scale as we can manage, should be our top priority. The fact that it's possible that some Kaiju are born in such places makes that even more of a priority, IMO.

None of that is possible if we don't destroy the breeches. We need to kill Kaiju to stay alive, and hunting them certainly helps, but the only genuine target that actually matters is the breaches. We kill the breaches, everything else can be deal with on our terms as we see fit and are able.

Everything else beyond the breaches is just a secondary bonus or post-war cleanup objective when you get right down to it.

...You know, I don't really know why I expected the writers of Pacific Rim to understand logistics or strategy. Or to think through the Kaiju Masters' plans. That's...I've heard worse, but it's got flaws. At least, given what I've learned from this quest. To the point where I suspect it got AU'D a bit here.

And there was your first major mistake - expecting any semblance of realistic warfare in a movie that is literally about giant robots fighting giant monsters.

Giant Monsters fighting Giant Robots.

Think about it.
 
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And there was you first major mistake - expecting any semblance of realistic warfare in a movie that is literally about giant robots fighting giant monsters.

Giant Monsters fighting Giant Robots.

Think about it.
.....yeah, that's pretty much it.

In MilSF terms, the closest thing to compare us to would likely be Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla.

Which... um... yeah.
 
Edit: also, you've mentioned that we're hurting the kaiju masters every time we kill a kaiju but, like... their industry outstrips ours phenomenally. They have entire planets/dimensions/whatever, we have the greater seattle area. They are literally employing the "drown them in bodies" tactic with things the size of skyscrapers. A war of attrition won't go in our favor.

Or to put it another way, the Kaijumasters can easily afford to apply the Zapp Branigan strategy against us, but with Kaiju instead of regular old human soldiers.

And we're the killbots with the pre-set kill limit.
 
ISTR that the film's director, in an interview, described Pacific Rim as being more akin to a sports movie than to MilSF -- more specifically, I remember him metaphorically comparing the film's protagonist to the "40-year-old rookie" type of character, who has passion but perhaps is past his physical prime, and therefore an underdog. Naturally, the genre being what it is, the underdogs emerge victorious in the face of overwhelming odds.
It's less them being underdogs, and more that the Kaiju Masters would be flushing resources down the drain for decades, rather than just ripping space-time a bigger asshole, and just flooding the world with Kaiju from the start. Unless their Breach tech is super different from ours, that should be an option. At the very least, I don't know why the time thing is necessary. Maybe the size can't be altered, but why do the slow build up? And, if those traits are shared by the Saint Helens Breach, we have literally decades before it hits that point, apparently.

Also, some of the rules still apply in this quest, which is much less disconnected from reality than the movie. Which is why I've been considering them for a while. I will be outlining how I was thinking we should move forward once I sleep, and have time to write it. But, basically, some of our better assets are our ability to make Angel-net transmitters, and our tech-base. And I think we should leverage those, and work with our strengths.
You severely miscalculate the Kaijumasters.

You severely underestimate what the Kaijumasters have to work with and you severely overestimate our standing compared to them and just how much we are actually hurting them by killing their Kaiju.

You think we're bleeding them dry? They have an entire universe to pull resources from. We have run of a city and its surrounding territory to work with.

And you think that we are bleeding them dry?

The Kaijumasters could probably send Kaiju at us like they have been and we could successfully fight them off till we've all died of old age and been replaced by an entire new generation and we still wouldn't be even close to bleeding them dry.
No, I suspect we are bleeding them dry. Slowly, but still. I can infer this, because they've been trying to find ways conserve resources. Or did you forget about that? They deliberately made a crappier Sword Kaiju...to conserve resources. Why do you think they want Earth, if not for it's resources?
None of that is possible if we don't destroy the breeches. We need to kill Kaiju to stay alive, and hunting them certainly helps, but the only genuine target that actually matters is the breaches. We kill the breaches, everything else can be deal with on our terms as we see fit and are able.

Everything else beyond the breaches is just a secondary bonus or post-war cleanup objective when you get right down to it.
Not really? It may not stay clean, but we should be able to improve things, and stop Kaiju from breeding in such locations.

I agree that the Breachs are important. But so is survival. If we don't have the resources to make the push, then we can't take the Breach. And I don't think we do have those resources, nor will we anytime soon, in-terms of Jaegers we control. Also, making ways of progressing towards the goal of taking out the Breach dependant on doing that is just silly.
And there was you first major mistake - expecting any semblance of realistic warfare in a movie that is literally about giant robots fighting giant monsters.

Giant Monsters fighting Giant Robots.

Think about it.
But, you see, they do apply. Because this is a game, not a movie. Games have ruled that tend to follow similar patterns to actual warfare. We have limited resources and limited forces, and must figure out how best to use them. That's where you start thinking in military terms.

How can we best leverage our forces to achieve our goals? How can we skew the odds in our favor? Is this risk worth this potential gain? Those are all military forms of thinking. You've been displaying them yourself, Jawa. Just not in a structured manner.
Or to put it another way, the Kaijumasters can easily afford to apply the Zapp Branigan strategy against us, but with Kaiju instead of regular old human soldiers.

And we're the killbots with the pre-set kill limit.
Clearly not, if they're trying to conserve their resources. Just because they have a massive amount of resources, doesn't mean they can't spend them as fast as they gain them. Or that they can automatically leverage all of them at once.

Edit: And why not just deploy overwhelming force immediately, if resources aren't an issue? If they have no limitations on the forces they can deploy, why do this whole 'target encampments with proportional Kaiju' thing? Aside from Fyrstorm's whim.

I need to go bed. I needed to go to sleep half-an-hour ago. 'Night.
 
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Nixeu, you need to rethink the way you're approaching this game and the universe of Pacific Rim in general.

You are approaching this game by trying to apply hard science fiction to what is a fun, soft science fiction universe.

You want to play by the rules of Horatio Hornblower in a universe that plays by the rules of Pirates of the Caribbean.

You're approaching Pacific Rim and Tacit Ronin vs The World as if the game plays by the rules of Starship Troopers the book when it is in fact playing by the rules of Starship Troopers the movie.

You want to apply the hard rules of Honor Harrington to the far softer universes of Star Wars and Star Trek.

You are, in short, trying to take a square peg and force it to be compatible with a circular hole.

This is not a game of military thinking. This is a game that is an excuse to have giant robots fight giant monsters.

Realistic military strategy and logic have no place here.
 
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