- Location
- Maryland
[X] Yes
-[X] Your Circlemates, including Harry
-[X] Isabela
-[X] Your Circlemates, including Harry
-[X] Isabela
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
- Location
- washington
I'm not trying to game wishes but interesting philosophical question. If someone believed they owned us as like a possession on a deep level and wished to improve us like one would a sword would that work on us? Like wishing for one's Excalibur to be even cooler.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
What about our family who are involved? Daniel is Lydia's boytoy and has been training in Sanctuary, Leech has a Cyber Demon sidekick, Charity helped raid Arctis Tor to rescue Molly. Does none of that qualify for involving themselves in the supernatural?
BoredMan
Chat. I think we fucked up.
I think we should ask DP what Molly thinks of that. Doesn't seem like she thinks giving them that protection would void another all around superior one since she's the one who had this thought in the first place but I don't think she's aware of how that works as much as we are just that it does so it's a concern.
If we were giving them wishes and some of those people actually are children that was always going to happen. Not everyone is a gamer munchkin crunching numbers and treating it like that would suck the fun out of giving the family wishes in the first place imo. They aren't our circle, we only run missions with Micheal from that group, so it'd be kinda weird to be telling them what to wish for as I see it. Not that we shouldn't shoot down outright problematic ones.
I really didn't think of it because Molly brought this up in the first place but she doesn't know everything that we do about how the Angelic detail is supposed to work. Not that we have the entire picture either but it's vague enough that this is a real concern. I'll keep my vote where it is for now and see what DP says.
If he gives a vague answer about whether or not it may void the detail I'm switching cause I'm not taking chances with screwing up a lifetime protection detail of literal Angels. He outright told us with Daniel though.
DragonParadox directly told us that if we let Daniel carry out his ambition that he'd be voiding his angelic protection. He posted a thingy with a name for what it's called and everything. Don't feel like looking for it but 100% his is gone. So yeah Nicodemus would in theory have a much easier time killing him than anyone else of that household. Even the rather small kids. I argued against letting him for the record since that angelic protection works against everything supernatural not just Nico and Molly draws enemies from every corner.
Charity isn't really actively involving herself in that instance she was just rescuing her kid. We know Micheal's family has the protection in canon and she didn't do much that she hasn't done there with her part in the rescue being in the books so she should be fine. You realize how odd it would be if going after your kidnapped kid got Heaven to turn it's back on you right? The protection detail that Knight families get would be useless then because everyone would loose it.
Leech.. I think it would be odd if her basically getting an AI phone got her protection taken away. It probably depends on what she does with it and if she gets further involved. DP warned us about Danny directly so I imagine he would've told us about Leech.
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I found a decent looking source online here for merits. The ones I'm already familiar with look correct at least, and it has merit lists from a broader range of properties.
There are some good ones, and some very funny ones, listed there. Like this one for Tiffany:
This isn't the maximum dot value, but it'd be very beneficial to Olivia:
There are some good ones, and some very funny ones, listed there. Like this one for Tiffany:
This isn't the maximum dot value, but it'd be very beneficial to Olivia:
There's a soft line here and it's unclear when it's crossed. I don't think Daniel's situation or Leech's for that matter necessarily violate it though. Using Molly for reference, she played with Wizardry for a while before she got to the point where she was vulnerable. She had to start looking to use her power over others to be left open to reciprocal influence.
Was that for if we let him train, or when he finished with it and got the magic sword?
BoredMan
Chat. I think we fucked up.
Not sure.. I mean how does one "finish" their training anyway? Okay, I remember vaguely where it would be and now I'm curious enough so I'll look for the description.
Edit:
This is what I was talking about. That's the context we have.
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- Location
- washington
Honestly kinda dumb it'd take away the protection seeing as Michael receives the stuff. Not to mention its protection of their home and basically just that.
dragon
Ancalagon the Black
- Location
- The Skies of Arda
[X] Yes
-[X] Family members who have lost their angelic protection
-[X] Your Circlemates, including Harry and Rosie
-[X] Isabela
-[X] Mutt
-[X] minions in general
we have a vampire minion that can only feed from suicidal people that we picked up in vegas. we can take care of that flaw for him.
by minions, i'm imagining the jade dogs or fivefold court operatives on earth. The jade dogs picked up alot of homeless humans, right? we could twist destiny to help them get setup in society. though, i'm sure it would make our service more appealing to ghouls and vampires as well.
-[X] Family members who have lost their angelic protection
-[X] Your Circlemates, including Harry and Rosie
-[X] Isabela
-[X] Mutt
-[X] minions in general
we have a vampire minion that can only feed from suicidal people that we picked up in vegas. we can take care of that flaw for him.
by minions, i'm imagining the jade dogs or fivefold court operatives on earth. The jade dogs picked up alot of homeless humans, right? we could twist destiny to help them get setup in society. though, i'm sure it would make our service more appealing to ghouls and vampires as well.
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BoredMan
Chat. I think we fucked up.
Micheal doesn't. It's for his family and if he retires he gets it. The Sword is something else. DP once said/implied f we had the appropriate ability to see certain things that we'd see Angels or the like following her family around. It's not just for the house, read the description I just posted.
Seems like Charity and Micheal have a basic understanding of it based on the description so they should be able to tell Molly if it's a problem.
- Location
- washington
L
Fair enough not canon but quest stuff and it's useful.
BoredMan
Chat. I think we fucked up.
Its canon.
Q: What, if anything, could threaten the Carpenter household right now?
Nuthin' much. Yeah, Michael's got a dozen angels on constant security detail. He's fine. There's one that goes with each kid when they go to school. It's ridiculous around there. And they've also got, you know, Mouse, there to keep track of things. Plus they've got like the biggest threshold in the entire WORLD for that kind of thing. ~Jim.
Coming back to this. If we're going to do something like this probably shouldn't say to exalt. The only exalted destined to exalt are the starborn. So if we're trying to angle the play towards Destiny manipulation granting the destiny background M20 : pg 311 with essentially an entanglement with a major creature of Darkness like say an elder of the red Court or something similar might be better.
Though I have no problem with the idea of Daniel being essentially our guy in the know. Receiving and handing us the dossiers of fate while working in the background to make sure our missions go as smooth as they possibly can maybe occasionally stepping on to the stage when someone needs to be punched into a duck by pattern spider touch.
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BoredMan
Chat. I think we fucked up.
You don't find this morally questionable..? How would Molly even do that in character.
Not particularly because a Collision Course between Daniel and a red Court Elder is going to end with a dead red Elder when that destined day comes also the entire wish revolves around him asking for something that might spin it.
Well to be honest Daniel could just wish for I wish, I could help you fight the Red Court. Then we could just give him a destiny background that says he kills one of the red Court elders. Which would very definitively be helping us fight the Red Court.
BoredMan
Chat. I think we fucked up.
I didn't know you could see the future. If your talking about the req for exalting solar I thought your life has to be in legitimate danger. As in you could actually die. Is that inaccurate?
I don't think he would ask for such a specific thing. I think it would be something more vague/broad if it's of a violent bent.
Yeah. There is no need for active threat of death for any exalted certain types need to literally be almost dead like the abyssals but you don't need that if you're any other type.
I mean the more vague it is the more asshole genie we can twist it with but the less likely Molly would be in character to do so, so that's fair enough.
On the whole it was it was just a suggestion to catch the solar exaltation. Which requires essentially triumph and fate. These triumphs and fated moments can be completely personal and completely irrelevant in most schemes of things but having them increases the likelihood of being exalted. In exalted versus World Of Darkness there's one greater facet that melds with these two. Open knowledge of the supernatural with the intent to do something about it. Seeing the horrible gribbles of the night and deciding actually I'd prefer you either stop eating people or didn't exist and working towards that end.
The Shih are called out as Prime solar candidates for exactly these reasons.
Edit: I know I forgot something great personal skill
Those Chosen to Triumph: ExVsWod pg.19 said:
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BoredMan
Chat. I think we fucked up.
Okay. So perform a great feat/triumph of by killing a strong vampire in mortal combat. Enough to impress the Exaltation even, but also your life was never in any danger to begin with. Riiiight.
- Location
- washington
I mean I don't buy it either since this is a quest and dp isn't just going to give us a free exalt companion. But I mean in relative terms you don't even need to be all that impressive by the settings standards to exalt. You can exalt from surviving in the wild for a while in the cold, making a really good sword, or just failing like us.
Okay how many Mortal people do you think could kill in Elder vampire in combat. It's really that simple how many people are willing to admit vampires exist. How many people have willpower 8 how many people have unlocked their chi how many people are actively seeking to clear out creatures of Darkness. The risk to life and limb is literally irrelevant.
There is only one solar I can think of who was in danger of dying and he was leading a mercenary band and then he killed a ton of the enemy Army that ran down his mercenary band and then exalted which kind of seems to suggest that the Army was a danger because they were a bunch of them and not because he was outmatched in any real way.
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BoredMan
Chat. I think we fucked up.
Well probably. I imagine he had one set up when he wrote up Vegas. May or may not have a stat sheet lying around for them. People seem to be politely ignoring/disregarding the possibility though. Eh...
We are talking about Solar. Also none of those are the proposed scenario and sound kind of dubious to me. I mean I think it would go for something more interesting than someone who survived in the wild tbh.
Red Court is a global issue. The number is probably bigger than you'd think since they actively off-screen humans. They don't need to match them they just need to triumph over them based on what you said, which killing should count as. You can kill a vampire without matching them. Reds even have a built in weaknesses to sunlight and faith.
Unlocking chi isn't a requirement. The risk is relevant if it has options which I find it hard to believe it wouldn't since again the Reds are global and it's reach should be global and the Reds have been an established issue for a very long time now and actively oppress prey on and enslave humanity in many ways. They've got an entire continent pretty much under their control Dego. That said if I'm choosing a hero and one guy pulls it off when they very well could've died and the other guy does it when he's so strong that his life was in no actual danger, I know which one I'm going for if I'm looking at the supernatural killers and I've got options.
Yeah there's the thing though you're thinking both too fairly and not mechanically enough. One the things exaltations are attracted to do matter and two exaltations are drawn to things like oh you're a human guy who can effortlessly kill an elder red that's exactly the kind of gumption and propensity for violence towards enemies of the sun that I'm exactly looking for.
Exaltations don't care whether or not people struggle. The guy who kills an elder red within a single flashing skilled blade stroke fueled by the internal energy he cultivated and the one who kills an elder red after a long drawn-out confrontation where gasoline and other methods are used to slowly but surely Whittle away the supernatural resistance the health of the vampire. Well by the time the guy who is slowly drawn out fighting a vampire is done the guy who killed the vampire in one stroke of his sword is already exalted they don't care about the struggle.
Dace the model Dawn caste in second edition literally broke a Calvary charge while partially hoveled by old age everyone who went with him died but he was untouched and then he was exalted.
You would think any of the men on the opposing side could have been exalted you would think any of the men who rode with him could have been exalted they weren't. Exaltations don't care how much you struggle no matter how much it seems like it really should it doesn't. It cares about do you have the stuff.
Which for the dawn caste on top of the earlier quote Means
Nothing to do with the struggle.
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BoredMan
Chat. I think we fucked up.
Never said they didn't matter. I think you think that it doesn't matter enough. You just said to think more mechanically implying that you want me to place less value on the narrative/flavor aspect of selection and just on the requirements. If such traits are desired struggle in some form is a good component to bring that out. No courage without fear and all that.
So this Dace was hindered by old age and managed to break a calvary charge and survive when literally everyone else died?? And he didn't even have a scratch on him?? Damn that's more impressive than the other guys.
You explained it kind of poorly with little context but that's what I just got from that statement. Sounds a more impressive triumph and narrative than the other guys to me if they all straight up died when the old man didn't. I think that old man has the stuff. Assuming that's what you meant to say anyway. It's hard to tell. Hoveled isn't even a word, are you meaning to say that an old man managed that or did I read it wrong...?
I think rather than quote editions at me that it would make more sense to look the Abyssal examples we have so far, what they were doing when they Exalted, to try and get a measure of what DragonParadox may be using for his standards though admittedly it wouldn't be one to one due to the different flavors. I think Dragon's standards may be higher than yours imo.
Okay. Maybe I'm not explaining this properly. There are mechanical features that the exaltations are looking for there are character features the exaltation is looking for. It's not looking for struggle. That's pretty much all I was saying when you say when there's no risk of death or whatever. That assumes a character just is completely unafraid of a Elder vampire which is probably not true even if you are destined to kill them because the destiny background doesn't preclude failure in fact directly mentions that failure is still possible and when the moment came calling you failed but outside of that.
A singular mortal human against an Elder vampire is food in 99.99% of instances. It doesn't matter that you're fated to kill them because like exalted fate in world of Darkness isn't absolute. If you are not skilled enough if you are not fast enough if you fail to meet your destiny there's a good chance you'll die and you will have just failed.
I consider and systemically the game agrees that being a vampire of a generation above 10 means that you can kill pretty much an arbitrary number of people if you aren't caught by surprise and don't let them dictate the terms of Engagement. So any morsel that manages to kill a Elder vampire is someone who's extremely impressive it doesn't matter that fate was on their side as that's not what the destiny background does.
So in my mind someone who slays a horrific dark creature that has partially gorged itself on Divinity and the blood of thousands of people is impressive especially when they have only what they bought with them to that fight. It doesn't matter that they weren't at risk in the fight.
The things exaltation selects for Triumph skill courage Valor willpower destiny a willingness to use your power are all exemplified in you chose to train you chose to fight a creature of Darkness you chose to stand with your head held high come hell or high water it doesn't matter that fate has led you to this point at this moment it is all you.
When I said he would kill an elder vampire I was specifically saying we could equip him to kill an elder vampire. As exultation doesn't care about equipment either and in fact due to how Essence resonance rules work might actively search for a mortal who already has magical equipment though that is unrelated to the point.
That's why I was saying it's that simple because in the vast vast vast majority of situations any human that finds themselves in combat against an elder red is going to die a brutal messy death or a Long drawn-out messy death but very little in between those things. So anyone who manages to kill an Elder vampire as a normal human is extremely impressive no matter how they did it.
That's why I gave the example of someone who has cultivated chi and someone who essentially does it through traps and trickery and painstaking effort to set up the killing of the Elder vampire. In my mind they are identical scenarios one just happens to conclude first and as solar exaltations choose for Triumph not for struggle.
On the Abyssal front they also have Destiny like out the ass Inari was the daughter of the King of the White Court sister of the queen of the White Court. Who threw her own agency managed to partially decouple her life from them. The Abyssal exaltation does choose on different though kind of similar merits but Destiny is something all the exalted share.
AZ was almost purely selected on his conviction alone the ability to Slit your own throat to deny your enemy what he wants to scream your Defiance with your dying breath and know that it will be your dying breath while doing so is heroic in its intensity. The fact that he was directly defying a greater supernatural being probably also helped.
The doctor is largely the same story giving his life for the mission. Courage in the face of death and then even when he's giving it all trying to give more to fight off the fomori.
I don't think I'm holding exaltation to different standards I'm just saying that the standards exultations pick from are vaguely mechanically understood and thematically understood and none of those thematics revolve around struggling in any particular way. I hope that's a bit clearer rather than spam quotes from the book or whatever.
On Dace you've got exactly right I was going too fast when I was typing it up. His whole little group that he drove into that Legion died and he was uninjured despite being an old man with a kind of bad knee and kind of bad vision he was strong enough to just push into a Calvary charge to break a flank and then after he already did that already did something that would be Beyond The Pale for a normal man he was exalted. Which I felt illustrated my point of exaltations are not at all afraid of being the win more button and in fact partially select to be so by choosing High skill experts in their field for their chosen.
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