Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Well this thing right in Dresden Files or this quest one of three things happen to atheist either they get scooped up by the white God, they immediately reincarnate which is the base layer functionality of death if we're using exalted as like the metaphysical basin or they become ghosts.

I imagine it's a choice thing either they can choose to become ghosts or they can choose to reincarnate or maybe a priest comes along and says hey God can take you no matter which God they're talking about it doesn't particularly matter. Atheist probably don't uniformly end up ghosts the default system would be reincarnation.
Well for the quest no idea but for Dresden files we at least have wog that God does not care if people worship him. Not gonna make any claims on the afterlife since in canon that's probably going to stay vague even after butcher finishes the series if we are being honest.
 
[X] Take Lamentations of the Void to Church with you. Call ahead to warn Father Forthil
-[X] And probably call MIchael too. There are few who can talk about Faith better than a Knight of the Cross
-[X] Activate All Things Betray and try to spot acts of everyday faith / hope in your environment as you go to the church. If you do, point them out

'Of mine...' your thoughts jump instantly to Father Forthil. Does that open door policy extend to beings of darkness older than the sun in the sky?
Yes it does.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Anaja on May 7, 2025 at 12:52 AM, finished with 21 posts and 6 votes.

  • [X] Take Lamentations of the Void to Church with you. Call ahead to warn Father Forthil
    [X] Take Lamentations of the Void to Church with you. Call ahead to warn Father Forthil
    -[X] And probably call MIchael too. There are few who can talk about Faith better than a Knight of the Cross
    -[X] Activate All Things Betray and try to spot acts of everyday faith / hope in your environment as you go to the church. If you do, point them out
 
[X] Take Lamentations of the Void to Church with you. Call ahead to warn Father Forthil
-[X] And probably call MIchael too. There are few who can talk about Faith better than a Knight of the Cross
-[X] Activate All Things Betray and try to spot acts of everyday faith / hope in your environment as you go to the church. If you do, point them out


This for now. Though I am looking forward to Charity and LoV meeting in this quest just for how weird it could get.
 
This is the opening phase of the same argument. The ultimate purpose served is defending the position that he shouldn't indiscriminately empower the dead to rise. We don't need to make the whole argument at once, but it's important to remember what we're actually doing the whole time.

Unless you are unsure of the conclusion and are leaving open the possibility of a necropunk sidegrade to the setting this is just quibbling.
Necropunk sidegrade sounds kind of fun, to be honest, as long as its ethical. The best way to strangle illegal activity is to present a legitimate regulated alternative, after all.
Is it worth considering showing him to one of the angels we know are around? Mac's, or the one that guards our house? Or at least putting a call into Mac's so he can decide if he wants to show up?
Mac is an interesting, but dangerous option - we know way too little about him. I am tempted to call an angel, though. Very tempted, in fact. Hopefully, Amoracchius may speak with LoV. Rules are unlikely to be as binding when dealing with LoV as when dealing with mortals.
Honestly, the man deserves a promotion, and probably some more resources getting assigned to his church. And a squad of combat monks / nuns stationed there.
 
Well this thing right in Dresden Files or this quest one of three things happen to atheist either they get scooped up by the white God, they immediately reincarnate which is the base layer functionality of death if we're using exalted as like the metaphysical basin or they become ghosts.

I imagine it's a choice thing either they can choose to become ghosts or they can choose to reincarnate or maybe a priest comes along and says hey God can take you no matter which God they're talking about it doesn't particularly matter. Atheist probably don't uniformly end up ghosts the default system would be reincarnation.
For the purposes of the DF the thing behind the white god took over the afterlife business entirely, barring very special circumstances that come down to personal deals with various powers or physically entering their territory before dying.

The white god does care about free will, but he also sets laws and makes people follow them when it suites his interests. I sort of see the free will stuff like the foreign policy of an alien superpower. It defines when and what they'll do to/with you, but the issuer of the policy is the ultimate arbiter of what it requires of them.

He had to have overridden the preferences of many people by largely shutting down the gods, but that didn't count because he says it didn't count and ultimately nobody can hold him to account for anything.

Don't get me wrong; the side of the angels is still the best side available, but it still dictates to everyone else on the basis of unchallengeable power. Even ghosts don't stick around forever, it's at best a pit stop before moving on. If people reincarnate then it happens after he decides they're allowed to.

Necropunk sidegrade sounds kind of fun, to be honest, as long as its ethical. The best way to strangle illegal activity is to present a legitimate regulated alternative, after all.
Done properly maybe, but I meant in the sense of an immediate refactor to local reality. Which isn't ideal.

From a strategic standpoint the goal is to convince a weaponized ghost hive mind that thinks undeath as the "adult" phase of mortal development that moving on is a valid choice too. Lots of different things can happen after that, but if we don't clear that bar we have a problem.
 
For the purposes of the DF the thing behind the white god took over the afterlife business entirely, barring very special circumstances that come down to personal deals with various powers or physically entering their territory before dying.
I mean is there an evidentiary text to this point. The white God as they are most likely encompass the cycle of reincarnation and the three abrahamic religions that still leaves like the entire Shinto faith and other African Animist as pretty much the only major religions that's still actively worshiped and have an afterlife to be decided on whether or not he actually does do that.

We have on screen evidence to the contrary that he has actually shut down the other afterlives because Hades is still in control of the eponymous Hades and Odin is still very obviously in control of his Mead Hall.

It just seems kind of quick to suggest that when we have no evidence in character both in dresden files and in this Quest if that's true. While we do have evidence that it's not.

Evidence of absence is absence of evidence in this case. We have evidence to suggest that the other afterlives aren't closed but rather just less popular from Hades own lips only a majority of the souls that are coming in from those attempting to access his vault not all of them.

It seems more in character of the white God and His endorsement of free will to suggest that people go where they believe they should go and due to the existence wandering Spirit ghost where they don't believe they should go as well.
 
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I mean is there an evidentiary text to this point. The white God as they are most likely encompass the cycle of reincarnation and the three abrahamic religions that still leaves like the entire Shinto faith as pretty much the only major religion that's still actively worshiped and has an afterlife to be decided on whether or not he actually does do that. We have on screen evidence to the contrary that he's actually shut down the other half the lives because Hades is still in control of the eponymous Hades and Odin is still very obviously in control of his Mead Hall.

It just seems kind of quick to suggest that when we have no evidence in character both interested in files and in this Quest if that's true. While we do have evidence that it's not. Evidence of absence is absence of evidence in this case. We have evidence to suggest that the other afterwards aren't closed but rather just less popular from Hades own lips only a majority of the souls are coming in from those attempting to access his vault not all of them. It seems both more in character of the white God and His endorsement of free will to suggest that people go where they believe they should go and due to the existence wandering Spirit ghost where they don't believe they should go as well.
The stuff with Hades and ghost story touches on this. Hades still exists, but when Nicodemus' daughter is sacrificed to him we learn that he doesn't receive souls the normal way anymore. One of the few ways to get stuck in his afterlife is being given to him on site.

People already in an afterlife are out of the game and stay where they are, but the old gods are relegated to maintenance.

Remember that Butcher puts a fig leaf of polytheism on for the setting but is himself a fairly Christian man, which strongly influences his world building. It's why the supreme god of creation is supposed to have many masks but only ever does anything in his catholic god costume.

The setting doesn't play fair with different faiths in the sense of treating them as peers because of the guy writing it made the mistake of including his own religion in the plot.

On the free will stuff; Christian hell exists in the DF and people get sent there. We see Dresden almost get hit by a ghost train going that direction. I doubt people choose to go there. The biblical premise for this is that you do what you want while you live and then are judged and sentenced accordingly.

Unlike WoD DF isn't a spiritual ancap wasteland. The cops don't ask if you concent to the law before dragging you to court.
 
The stuff with Hades and ghost story touches on this. Hades still exists, but when Nicodemus' daughter is sacrificed to him we learn that he doesn't receive souls the normal way anymore. One of the few ways to get stuck in his afterlife is being given to him on site.
Ghost story is where I got the quote from Hades says only the majority of souls that flow into his afterlife nowadays come from his vault not all of them and he has no reason to lie.
Remember that Butcher puts a fig leaf of polytheism on for the setting but is himself a fairly Christian man, which strongly influences his world building. It's why the supreme god of creation is supposed to have many masks but only ever does anything in his catholic god costume.

The setting doesn't play fair with different faiths in the sense of treating them as peers because of the guy writing it made the mistake of including his own religion in the plot.
Yeah it doesn't play fair in a lot of aspects but what you're suggesting isn't just not playing Fair it's outright poisoned fig Leaf there's no disguising anything at that point there's no evidence to suggest this and the idea that it should be the case is really fucked up from both a writing perspective and incongruent with what we see.
On the free will stuff; Christian hell exists in the DF and people get sent there. We see Dresden almost get hit by a ghost train going that direction. I doubt people choose to go there. The biblical premise for this is that you do what you want while you live and then are judged and sentenced accordingly.

Unlike WoD DF isn't a spiritual ancap wasteland. The cops don't ask if you concent to the law before dragging you to court.
On the first point other hells also exist and other afterlives exist and we know they do Valhalla and the eponymous Hades and Tartarus are all called out as functioning afterlives in the Nevernever in Summer Knight. By name in Dresden Files. So both the Greek afterlife and hell are still functioning and the Norse afterlife is still functioning and actively recruiting at that.
Summer Knight Ch.26 said:
The Nevernever is what the wizards call the entirety of the realm of spirit. It isn't a physical place, with geography and weather patterns and so on. It's a shadow world, a magical realm, and its substance is as mutable as thought. It has a lot of names, like the Other Side and the Next World, and it contains within it just about any kind of spirit realm you can imagine, somewhere. Heaven, Hell, Olympus, Elysium, Tartarus, Gehenna—you name it, and it's in the Nevernever In theory, at any rate.
On the second point Dresden is a non-deist faithful (Magic - literally Burns one of the Reds with his pentacle as an object of faith) he ends up in a place called the Between that's very specifically not called Purgatory when someone (Fallen) cheated in a way they are not supposed to be and Uriel in that instance literally tells him I do as I always have protect the freedom of choice there is no escaping the consequences of your actions. Where he literally makes a choice not to go to the afterlife.

In that instance it literally is the cops asking if you consent to the law before doing anything. It's probably not particularly indicative of anything as there's a lot of strange circumstances regarding dresden's death from the Oddity of the faith he practices to the circumstances of his death to the angel showing up.

So there is a reason I'm asking you for textual evidence because we have textual evidence against that and it'd be extremely anti-choice for the white God to do that. Forbidding the Gods to cavort around and be in the mortal world without consequence is completely different to actually saying your afterlives are completely closed to any believers you have after this point. Which does not seem to have happened based on things we can see happening in Dresden Files.

On this point I'm not actually super committed. If this is just another point of God is an asshole then let it be God is an asshole but let's not attribute even more sins to God than the multitude. The last thing they need to be is a bigger hypocrite on top of being an murderous Brimstone deity.
 
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If I understood Uriel correctly, White God's afterlife is an after-afterlife, where people go after they leave their pagan afterlives. Abrahamic religions and possibly some others just skip the intermediary step
 
From a strategic standpoint the goal is to convince a weaponized ghost hive mind that thinks undeath as the "adult" phase of mortal development that moving on is a valid choice too. Lots of different things can happen after that, but if we don't clear that bar we have a problem.

Molly hasn't used it yet, but part of Molly is a spiritual mechanism designed to create super-powered undead creatures that are are worst Exalted knock-offs from dead souls - the Hungry Dead - who can then ascend as they increase in Dharmic wisdom and become increasingly super-powered.

It's not obviously wrong. There's just a high rate of infant mortality and the adults need to eat the children. Not nice, but not exactly unknown in nature.
 
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Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on May 7, 2025 at 12:44 PM, finished with 31 posts and 7 votes.

  • [X] Take Lamentations of the Void to Church with you. Call ahead to warn Father Forthil
    -[X] And probably call MIchael too. There are few who can talk about Faith better than a Knight of the Cross
    -[X] Activate All Things Betray and try to spot acts of everyday faith / hope in your environment as you go to the church. If you do, point them out
    [X] Take Lamentations of the Void to Church with you. Call ahead to warn Father Forthil
 
Arc 15 Post 118: Mercy for the Lost New
Mercy for the Lost

16th of March 2007 A.D.

Dad isn't exactly surprised when you call for him to pick you up, it's less conspicuous than Black Rider, he is surprised when you explain the passenger it's probably best not to advertise, the soul and Hunger of the Black Court. "I'll get a rental. Stay safe Molly."

Oh right, probably best not to put him in the family car. You're sure that you'd be able to clear out any unwelcome resonances, but you can see how he wouldn't want to take that risk.

The old Ford pickup had seen better days, probably at some point during the Regan administration, but the way it's lights seem to dim when it comes close, that's not on the car. A look down at the small figure beside you finds him playing some odd clapping game with the air , only something tells you it's not just the air. The ghostly voices of children fill the air, just on the edge of hearing.

"They think I'm one of them. It seemed polite."

As the door cracks open he stops, head turning a little too fast and too far, one small pale finger points at the sword across Dad's back. "That can harm me."

"But it will not unless you harm the innocent, on that you have my word," your father... no rather Michael Amoracchius's bearer.

"What is innocence? Are not all stained by the sins of their fathers?"

He doesn't mean Genesis, you know instinctively and yet he does, older truths in guises new a thousand times a thousand retold, the truth of mortal beings so often lead astray, from one who knows the evils of the human heart all too well.

"Innocence is not a treasure to be held and coveted, it is not just the privilege of one creed nor bound by age, it's that which doesn't harm another the gentle spirit that makes this world worth being," Dad says and points first to a man handing out left-overs to the needy, then to an old woman feeding the birds, to a child arguing loudly about his kite being stuck in a tree to a pair of cyclists arguing about what movie to watch when they get home.

"Guilt should be proven, innocence assumed," you agree.

"Yes, but what is it to be guarded by so fierce a thing and yet spread so thin over the world?"

You stop in front of the Saint Mary's, coincidentally lacking any other visitors tonight. Yeah, right, you glance up at the clouded sky suspiciously even though you know Heaven's not really that way.

Father Forthil is waiting patiently, only his hands folded over the front of his cassock hinting at his nervousness. He looks though the ancient herald of the black, then at him and for a moment his breath catches, his eyes go wide and it looks like he might run, but one hand holds a cross, white from the strain, his lips move in a prayer though no sound escapes.

"Be welcome," says the priest to the dark that recalls faintly having been once a child by alien seas.

"You risk much." The words are carefully spoken, as though he is concerned speaking to an ordinary mortal will shatter him like glass, for all you know he might have the power.

"Life is risk," Father Forthil answers.

"I am not alive," the porcelain face cracks in something like confusion.

"And I am no wizard to judge the technicalities of life and death. You walk, you speak, you ask to enter and do no harm, you are welcome."

"I could be lying you know, I'm not a faerie thing and even they can lie when the Stone Heart finds them." Does he mean Nemesis?

You briefly consider just how much he would know about the darker parts of the Supernatural world just being what he is, but now's not the time to get excited about that, not the time to ask.

"You could," the priest agrees amiably while you had been thinking.

Struck by some suspicion he turns to your dad and asks. "Do you think I'm innocent? This is just a shape you know, I could take another that only you and the Green Sun Prince could behold and not be broken by in all this place of life."

"I know," Dad answers simply.

"But you have faith that I would not, faith begets innocence, innocence begets faith, not because it is ignorant, but because it refuses to bend to the exigences of the world. Faith is a finding, again and again, that which should be lost. A bargain then, a path for them-whose-Hunger-I-am, to be what they have never been and when one does I will be watching."

"I can't..." Father Forthil begins to explain that he only speaks with the Holy spirit in very limited ways and offering the promise of salvation to cursed cadavers isn't one of them.

"I do," the very unremarkable 'man' whom you had met once before in your parent's living room is standing in one of the pews suddenly yet without fanfare. "Mercy is given, no price asked."

"How? Oh."

You're curious of course, it's your nature, as much as eyes shine around you when you call power or cold winds blow when you summon the whole of your power. Without words you realize that you had by your actions, however disruptive been given the chance to ask one question, not about God or angels abut about the world beyond what even your Crown can see. What will it be?

[] What kind of mercy can be extended to the Black Court

[] Something else
-[] Write in what


OOC: You can think of this as Golconda for the Black Court or the means to become real boys/girls for much creepier Pinocchios
 
Oh indeed.

I think it's one of the best case scenarios for us taking Lamentations out. I mean, Heaven itself is willing to give a helping hand. If it works, the supernatural status quo once again shifts and much in the favour of good guys.

The question offered is not bad, but if we think we can get away with it, I'd ask about the afterlife sorting. That way we could roll out the Wheel for our allies without worrying about stepping on someone's toes.
 
Oh indeed.

I think it's one of the best case scenarios for us taking Lamentations out. I mean, Heaven itself is willing to give a helping hand. If it works, the supernatural status quo once again shifts and much in the favour of good guys.

The question offered is not bad, but if we think we can get away with it, I'd ask about the afterlife sorting. That way we could roll out the Wheel for our allies without worrying about stepping on someone's toes.
I worry that touches on "God and angels" too closely.
 
I am very tempted to ask about the afterlives (why they exist), or the Wheel (why there isn't one as a default on Earth). Karma could be an interesting question too (does it exist?).

The big question could be "Why Outside exists as it does?"

Still, I think this is a win for us.
 
To achieve a worldstate we want( overall better,by our subjective judgement,but not utopia), which are the broad steps we need take?

How do i create an exaltation?

What is the most useful method ( tool/person/ritual/ prophecy/place/info) to oppose the outsiders i can get?

What are all the apocalypses that have a high chance to occur in the next 10 years?


Where can i find remnants of the past ages?

How do i end the suffering of the hells in a way aligned with my morals?


Which are the people i should talk to to achieve my goals?

What happened to the first age?


How do i become a primordial?


How do i built a wheel of fate?
 
[X] What kind of mercy can be extended to the Black Court

I don't want us to use this chance for satisfying our own curiosity/advancing our own interests/etc., and definitely not use any sort of reasoning such that boosting us improves our ability to help others so it's the real selfless option.

Use this chance to do exactly this, and seek mercy for someone/something like the Black Court. I'd be willing to go with a broader and more encompassing wording if someone has something, but the core of it does need to be this.
 
[X] What kind of mercy can be extended to the Black Court

Actually, since we are likely to be involved in remaking them, this is a good question, it helps us with that project.
 
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