- You are indeed in a new scene
- No, BMI is limited to human sized humanoids
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
So, miniaturized version of the being in front of us, identical in all respects except scale? BMI explicitly allows for fictional individuals to be recreated.
Yes, you can do that, it is humanoid.
BoredMan
Dinosaurs came in many flavors. Like potato chips.
I remember the quote and all of these various points are readily obvious/apparent to me yeah.
What doesn't make sense to me is why she says that as a reason to dismiss him and letting him off which is what would've happened had he not stuck around. As that quote says she was free to kill him. If he was killed we wouldn't have had reason to keep using the charm and it's target for active use would've been taken out stopping the charm.
So the problem would've been solved and killing him should've been easier and faster than doing so to us. It's weird that she didn't kill him the moment she showed up, solving the problem immediately. If we told her no or that it wasn't doing as such without evidence, I'm pretty sure she would've started blasting rather than turn around and kill the HollowMan stopping the charm use on the spot then going from there.
So she can bend the rules to stop the ED from waking up but wasn't able to do so to kill the guy who we were using the charm on to begin with which was the perceived threat in her eyes? Doesn't make much sense.
She was allowed to act against him, according to your logic.
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I wasn't arguing that she was allowed to bend the Rules. I was arguing that the Rules seem to have clear and possibly very narrowly defined exceptions in regards to what she can do in upholding her duties as Ebon Dragon's warden.
I'm not sure she was allowed to act against him. Note that she says "were you not truthful, I would smite you for calling upon me". It is plausible that the Rules she operates under have something like "if an enemy you are normally allowed to attack calls you to prevent Ebon Dragon from waking up, you are not allowed to attack them while stopping the cause of Ebon Dragon waking up". It sorta makes sense, in order to encourage forces normally hostile to Heavens to report this. Remember, Outsiders have multiple factions - at least two we know of (Neverborn and Raksha). And this is not just any Neverborn, but Ebon Dragon's Neverborn. No one, possibly not even other Neverborn, wants that guy up and around.
So, she plausibly couldn't attack Empty Man.
It should also be noted that Angels don't operate on fae logic of exact wording of the Rules, I think. the spirit of the Rules very much matters.
BoredMan
Dinosaurs came in many flavors. Like potato chips.
You said "When discharging said duty, she is allowed to do stuff that would normally be prohibited by the Rules".
That means bend or sidestep or ignore them to complete her mission.
It looks like you are backtracking here a bit with your first sentence and it's making this confusing.
I don't think that makes much sense seeing as in this case he was literally part of the cause and killing him would've stopped it right then and there. She could've carried out her mission and kill someone she had motive to kill unrelated to the ED.
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She could've as I see it and according to your previous statement. It looks like she just actively choose not to.
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This seems to be a language issue in our communication. To me "bend the rules" means to creatively interpret the rules to act in ways they are meant to discourage or prohibit without outright breaking them. If an exception is in the Rules to begin with, then it's not bending the Rules to apply said exception when intended.
I disagree. She says "have you called me on false pretenses, I would smite you". This may mean that she cannot smite him if the pretenses are correct, i.e. there's a risk to her mission. When the situation is resolved she acts against him, though in a non-lethal fashion. The limited scope of retribution might be because he sincerely believed he was right, and intent usually matters in such things.
BoredMan
Dinosaurs came in many flavors. Like potato chips.
Um.
If the rules are being bent to act against you and you don't even know what the rules themselves are to begin with and can only speculate then in the moment from your perspective they might as well not exist. If it's an exception to them rather than standing rules being technically adhered to while bending them then the same end result is achieved (acting against you) and the difference isn't much relevant.
I said bend because I didn't think the exact difference in meaning mattered between bending or breaking or being allowed to ignore them. Since the entire point in your statement was that you said if it's to stop the ED from waking up the typical rules aren't going to matter.
Point being allowed to void them, as you say, to attack us but not the HM makes little sense when he is again literally part of the cause of the threat to her mission and she had more than one reason to smite him.
It could also be her making a judgement call, rather than her following a Rule that screwed us over while allowing the Outsider aligned who we were applying the charm to that she saw as a threat to use to leave scott free.
Personally the logic explained just seems too loose to me.
She can ignore Rules to carry out her mission but the task that allows her to do so also has a clause that says "if someone summons you to deal with a threat to your mission you can't smite them for any reason if they believe it justified and it's potentially plausible even if they themselves are an active component of the perceived threat to your mission that they summoned you for in the first place and you'd typically be allowed to kill them, and killing them would accomplish your mission faster and impose less risk to it".
That sort of Rule handling doesn't seem cock and bull to you?
Empty Man wasn't a threat to her mission. We were. Yes, we only used SSC to deal with him, I agree, but we had free will, and we could use other tools, and we had the charm to potentially remotely wake Ebon Dragon. From the perspective where the top priority is preventing Ebon Dragon from waking up, dealing with us seems a better choice, and like the least violation of Free Will.
BoredMan
Dinosaurs came in many flavors. Like potato chips.
I don't know why you are assuming that the HM had no Free Will in his actions. At any rate this logic only makes any sense if you take some of the previously stated context out of the situation and act like it doesn't exist. Details regarding the situation that would be readily apparent to the Angel.
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- Location
- Right Where I Am
[X] Pray for permission / guidance on the matter of communicating with the dead being
-[X] If allowed, or no answer comes, Lydia talks to him
-[X] If not allowed, use Naked Wicked Souls on the being, and ask a question to obtain the map of the passages, traps included
-[X] STUNT: You clasp your hands in a way that you have practiced since you were a child, yet the words that come out of your mouth are something you wouldn't have thought to utter until less than a year ago. In your mind, the image of the guardian angel is firmly affixed, as you intone your prayer, the call which, a novel experience that, you actually half expect to receive a direct answer to: "Oh Lord, I seek guidance in this hour of need! Heavy is the hand of the chosen, and loud are our words. I seek not to endanger Creation, but to protect it. I beseech you to send me a sign - will conversing with the being before us endanger the bindings like those you set your angels to guard?"
Sure.
-[X] If allowed, or no answer comes, Lydia talks to him
-[X] If not allowed, use Naked Wicked Souls on the being, and ask a question to obtain the map of the passages, traps included
-[X] STUNT: You clasp your hands in a way that you have practiced since you were a child, yet the words that come out of your mouth are something you wouldn't have thought to utter until less than a year ago. In your mind, the image of the guardian angel is firmly affixed, as you intone your prayer, the call which, a novel experience that, you actually half expect to receive a direct answer to: "Oh Lord, I seek guidance in this hour of need! Heavy is the hand of the chosen, and loud are our words. I seek not to endanger Creation, but to protect it. I beseech you to send me a sign - will conversing with the being before us endanger the bindings like those you set your angels to guard?"
Sure.
Update will be tomorrow to give you guys a bit more time to decide what do do about the Lovecraftian monstrosity you encountered in the deep places of the world.
The paranoiac in me wants to take this as a hint to immediately reverse course, but I think I won't listen to him.
1) John Q. Mortal is still able to just wander over if they want. Any Egyptian university that discovered evidence of this place would have no real issue getting to the point of digging it up. Past that ending up walking into Mordor would only be a matter of time.
From the nevernever side we were told that the higher levels align with desecrated graves:
You can get to this area from anywhere on the planet.
I'm not saying that whatever we've found is harmless or trivial, just that it's probably not an open pit into a primordial gravesite.
2) Our Mandarin level elder treated it as something to handle with care. He wasn't afraid of it, but it wasn't to be taken lightly either. I don't think it's used very frequently by most metrics.
All of which is secondary to how easy it is to poke this place.
Is it a valid target for MiM? Technically that charm can be used with any action we take to kill rather than our own hands by RaW, and the vibe of this place is very "nuke and devour the souls of everything in the region just to be sure"-able.
Assuming you can kill it yeah.
I'm not using NWS for identity. I am using it to attempt to glimpse some diverse information. The character of the being (I am not ready to just judge it as evil, for all we know this was some ancient god who died defending Creation), and the circumstances of his death - note that the expression eternally preserved on his face is shame. I suspect his greatest shame will be something to do with his death.
We could use an additional question, I am not directly opposed, but remember - we don't regenerate essence here. I am a bit scared of running out. Even NWS is pushing it, I think. If voters want, I can add the question in.
The identity is useful, but I'm not sure it's immediately useful. And we are in danger.
Actually, you know what? You are right. It's important to know who that is for more context.
[X] Pray for permission / guidance on the matter of communicating with the dead being
-[X] Use the current scene as a focus to learn who the being in front you is, either to get kore context for the follow up information, or so Lydia knows who to address
-[X] If allowed, or no answer comes, Lydia talks to him
-[X] If not allowed, use Naked Wicked Souls on the being, and ask a question to obtain the map of the passages, traps included
-[X] STUNT: You clasp your hands in a way that you have practiced since you were a child, yet the words that come out of your mouth are something you wouldn't have thought to utter until less than a year ago. In your mind, the image of the guardian angel is firmly affixed, as you intone your prayer, the call which, a novel experience that, you actually half expect to receive a direct answer to: "Oh Lord, I seek guidance in this hour of need! Heavy is the hand of the chosen, and loud are our words. I seek not to endanger Creation, but to protect it. I beseech you to send me a sign - will conversing with the being before us endanger the bindings like those you set your angels to guard?"
[X] Gleaning Information
-[X] Ask another question
--[X] On the mummification bandages. Who were you?
--[X] On the scene. Will the way collapse if this being awakens?
--[X] On the beings Crown. Will another being like the Perfected Principle of Consumption or the charge of the End of the Road, the Silence of the Dragon Below be awakened by this awakening?
--[X] On the intricately carved hole in the beings knee. What is the complete layout of the building beyond this point?
Okay I know this is rather Essence intensive but this literally grounds answers to all of our questions and gives us the ability to completely circumvent traps and understand where we're going beyond this point.
While the necrotic Essence is scary we only could have used Essence regeneration once per scene anyway and murder is meat doesn't care that it's necrotic essence you get it from the beings that you kill anyway if they are ghosts.
We'll also have our anima open so we can't be surprised attacked or surprised at all. Neither our shaping or mind defense require Essence to use and are Excellence is the last five turns a piece for one essence so even if we did need to definitively fight for a pretty long period we could literally fight 45 rounds of combat on nine essence which is more than literally every combat in the last Arc put together.
-[X] Ask another question
--[X] On the mummification bandages. Who were you?
--[X] On the scene. Will the way collapse if this being awakens?
--[X] On the beings Crown. Will another being like the Perfected Principle of Consumption or the charge of the End of the Road, the Silence of the Dragon Below be awakened by this awakening?
--[X] On the intricately carved hole in the beings knee. What is the complete layout of the building beyond this point?
Okay I know this is rather Essence intensive but this literally grounds answers to all of our questions and gives us the ability to completely circumvent traps and understand where we're going beyond this point.
While the necrotic Essence is scary we only could have used Essence regeneration once per scene anyway and murder is meat doesn't care that it's necrotic essence you get it from the beings that you kill anyway if they are ghosts.
We'll also have our anima open so we can't be surprised attacked or surprised at all. Neither our shaping or mind defense require Essence to use and are Excellence is the last five turns a piece for one essence so even if we did need to definitively fight for a pretty long period we could literally fight 45 rounds of combat on nine essence which is more than literally every combat in the last Arc put together.
It would also attract attention. Something I'd rather try to avoid until needed
Wait a second now that you say something we've already spent more than four Essence this scene.
Our anima should already be flaring.
Fair point, but the scene after going through the portal is a new scene. @DragonParadox is our anima flaring?
It is not, the way down was pretty long, though it is hard to estimate in minutes or hours. Even Clippy isn't entirely sure of the time and she has a built in clock.