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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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[X] Plan Spiritual guidance
-[X] Keep it, it might prove useful later
--[X] Call upon your cybernetic spirits to help keep it working
---[X] Do not reveal Sanctuary - the spirits are either just that, spirits called by you from some mystic realm, or anonymous cyberspace presences
--[X] Involve Fellowship of Saint Giles, they can certainly use help, and your forces will either provide backup, or alert you to issues

Wicked City is a thing. Urban elementals are a thing. Calling upon spirits to help you is well within what a powerful wizard can do.

Also, on a somewhat related note, IRL Colombia has San Jose wreck in its waters. That's 17 billion in sunken treasure. Probably at least some magical trinkets in this universe too. Organizing a recovery expedition could net us monetary compensation, and help boost our governmental faction.
 
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Doesn't hiding just open a vulnerability in that anyone who wants to try splitting our agents off from us has an enormous "secret" to reveal as proof of our malfeasance?

Seems like a Hollywood classic misunderstanding in the making.
 
I'm still stuck here. I want more power as much as anyone, but this also feels like a put your money where you mouth is moment. When no one can stop us what do we choose to do?

There's also the practical concern of how if we cut them loose someone else will probably fill the void. Which doesn't help the situation.

… Could Heaven help us here? Maybe we could pray for guidance and actually get a result?

Or try asking the crown "Who would be most useful to Heaven in this role?" While using each job as a foci. Good people get into power and we get to spite the devil because technically the white god didn't do shit. He just got everything he wanted in a particular situation because an eldritch toddler imprinted on him like a baby duck.


Tsotate said:
Shouldn't her Faith pool be greater than 3 now? She just made a whole room full of Pacts, after all.
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Demon the Fallen makes a point about how even though the mechanics don't make it impossible to get a Faith pool of 10 spending and afternoon selling meth at a truck stop that the storyteller is supposed to pump the breaks themselves. Each pact should have some significance to it, a milestone in the narrative of how the demon relates to other people.

It wouldn't surprise me if these guys all rounded up to a couple of faith points mechanically speaking.

… narratively because the soul of an oligarch isn't worth much. :V
 
I personally think that Tiffany here made a step towards lowering the tornament to 2, possibly. And that she may deserve an increase in faith, probably. But I won't vote to spend xp on it
 
Alratan said:
We chose to empower predators and parasites on humanity who actively work to make the world a worse place, like Marcone.
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Okay I'm just going to call this what it is that's bullshit.

One Macone and his men are human. Two if you think that Marcone is actively making a situation worse in comparison to unregulated crime when he very specifically is limiting the reach of crime I've got a bridge to sell you in Tacoma. Three we actively chose to work with him to turn him in to our purposes of helping other people.

Four Marcone and The Vices he pushes are a distinct and sharp symptom of American policy rather than something intrinsically morally failing the illegalization of so many things creates massive holes where in a world where everyone needs to eat people are going to take advantage it's literally inevitable.

I could go on and on about how humans love mind-altering substances how we've always loved mind altering substances with making alcohol since before the first civilization that we can recognize sprung up. I can go on and on the fact that people in a situation where services can be traded for food and shelter will always attempt to secure food and shelter no matter what they need to do leading to the world's oldest profession and the second oldest profession.

Study after study real world example after real world example. The presence of legal prostitution reduces most forms of sexual crime including sex trafficking. The presence of legalized drugs along with treatment centers leads to reduce rates of overdoses incarcerations and drug addicts. Actual rehabilitative prisons lead to less reincarcerations and less crimes.

America ignores every single one of the things I just said. Marcone is a violent criminal there's no way around that fact he's also not doing anything humans wouldn't be doing anyway and he actually imposes some limits both Civility and in targets that every other Criminal just would not and he's also open to turning away from being a violent criminal which a lot of criminals just would not be.

There's a reason I chose to vote to work with Marcone it's because unless we are willing to tackle the root issue we will literally not be able to help anyone with anything he is doing because getting rid of him does fucking nothing and in fact for a significant period of time makes everything he is already controlling way worse.

The only way to properly address the problems and demand that Marcone is addressing is interacting with the real government and time and time again if it's not magic we don't give a shit. So please miss me with that moral Event Horizon shit it's just not true.
 
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Degorium said:
Okay I'm just going to call this what it is that's bullshit.

One Macone and his men are human. Two if you think that Marcone is actively making a situation worse in comparison to unregulated crime when he very specifically is limiting the reach of crime I've got a bridge to sell you in Tacoma. Three we actively chose to work with him to turn him in to our purposes of helping other people.

Four Marcone and The Vices he pushes are a distinct and sharp symptom of American policy rather than something intrinsically morally failing the illegalization of so many things creates massive holes where in a world where everyone needs to eat people are going to take advantage it's literally inevitable.

I could go on and on about how humans love mind-altering substances how we've always loved mind altering substances with making alcohol since before the first civilization that we can recognize sprung up. I can go on and on the fact that people in a situation where services can be traded for food and shelter will always attempt to secure food and shelter no matter what they need to do leading to the world's oldest profession and the second oldest profession.

Study after study real world example after real world example. The presence of legal prostitution reduces most forms of sexual crime including sex trafficking. The presence of legalized drugs along with treatment centers leads to reduce rates of overdoses incarcerations and drug addicts. Actual rehabilitative prisons lead to less reincarcerations and less crimes.

America ignores every single one of the things I just said. Marcone is a violent criminal there's no way around that fact he's also not doing anything humans wouldn't be doing anyway and he actually imposes some limits both Civility and in targets that every other Criminal just would not and he's also open to turning away from being a violent criminal which a lot of criminals just would not be.

There's a reason I chose to vote to work with Marcone it's because unless we are willing to take you a root issue we will literally not be able to help anyone with anything he is doing because getting rid of him does fucking nothing and in fact for a significant period of time makes everything he is already controlling way worse.

The only way to properly address the problems and demand that Marcone is addressing is interacting with the real government and time and time again if it's not magic we don't give a shit. So please miss me with that moral Event Horizon shit it's just not true.
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Yes. Organised crime is basically always and without fail worse than disorganised crime, because organised criminals are better at it in all ways. And one of the ways that they're so much worse is that in order to exist they have to undermine and subvert the institutions that should protect society from criminals.

There are big economies of scale when it comes to criminal enterprises, so a small number of well organised people can victimise a lot more people a lot harder than a larger number of disorganised ones. Institutions matter.

Study after study does very much does not vindicate the moral superiority or organised criminal gangs.

Thanks to Marcone there will be much more and much worse crime than there would be without him, because he makes crime more possible and lower risk for criminals, bothfor those he's directly in charge off and those who aren't but can get away with their crimes because of the way he has to weaken the criminal justice system in order to exist.
 
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Is there a reason she didn't use Lore of Awakening? With Pact to regenerate Faith it didn't matter, but it seemed a bit strange, especially since I think the dice pool is higher.
 
Alratan said:
Organised crime is basically always and without fail worse than disorganised crime, because organised criminals are better at it in all ways.
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This is just not true studies show that there's an immediate and obvious trade-off between organized and unorganized crime constant low-level violence or large outspirtings constant drug pushing and drug bust versus large busts and gang members notable gang members being taken in. There's a sharp and immediate trade-off how many deaths per day versus how many deaths per significant event.

This is known to the fact that Chicago despite eliminating essentially it's larger gangs in the last couple decades still has hundreds if not thousands of the Lesser criminal organizations going around actually killing each other and shooting each other through the city this is not really negotiable the criminals don't disappear just because the mafia does the supply and demand issues don't disappear just because the mafia does you are paying the same price no matter which until you solve the issue.
Alratan said:
There are big economies of scale when it comes to criminal enterprises, so a small number of well organised people can victimise a lot more people a lot harder than a larger number of disorganised ones. Institutions matter.
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The economies of scale of Enterprise you're talking about exist whether or not gangs do the number of victims is as far as Chicago goes static both via crime statistics today and in 2007 having a fuck ton of minor gangs or having one large gang still leads to people dying and in the small gang portion way more along with a lot more drug that's a lot more drug bust a lot more people going to prison.

Institutions only matter as far as Effectiveness and as I've stated before American policy makes the effectiveness of American institutions deeply deeply crippled.
Alratan said:
Study after study does very much does not vindicate the moral superiority or organised criminal gangs.

Thanks to Marcone there will be much more and much worse crime than there would be without him, because he makes crime more possible and lower risk for criminals, bothfor those he's directly in charge off and those who aren't but can get away with their crimes because of the way he has to weaken the criminal justice system in order to exist.
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No one is talking about the moral superiority of gangs we're talking about the actual explicit reality of how the world works.

There will be no much worse crime he's already The Crime Boss of Chicago. Our deal with him stipulates that he pulls back on criminal activity to begin with. Yet again he is actively controlling elements of crime to reduce their impact already. Also he really doesn't have to weaken the American justice system to exist the American legal system provides plenty of cover both economically and legally to Rich actors that he can just ignore the police by and large.

Paying good lawyers for his men and having possible Alibis is enough he doesn't need to undermine the justice system or even the police to exist in any way.

This entire argument you're posing also supposed that institutions are sacrosanct or worth keeping just because they are institutions rather than their effectiveness or the laws they are based in and their own moral implications as if institutions are inherently moral when in fact institutions inherently are considerably more concerned with keeping their power and spreading their influence then morality as a whole.
 
BronzeTongue said:
Doesn't hiding just open a vulnerability in that anyone who wants to try splitting our agents off from us has an enormous "secret" to reveal as proof of our malfeasance?

Seems like a Hollywood classic misunderstanding in the making.
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I was under the impression that the thread was strongly opposed to proper full-scale interaction of FIvefold Courts with Colombian government. Previous two votes (how Molly presents herself and how Tiffany presents herself) were about the degree of interaction. If that is no longer the case now that we have won the network over, I would be very glad to actually do this properly.

Before I make a plan, though, a question for everyone - do we talk to the Library and USA government. Not doing so risks a fight with CIA branch of Daedalus. Doing so makes it almost guaranteed that USA government will involve itself. I am tentatively positive about this, and think we should try to establish / deepen our alliance there.
 
The 'debate' about morality of working with Macrone was annoying the first time, and then it at least was important to the topic at hand. Can I ask you to can it?

Regarding now, the only way we could properly clean up corruption was by uprooting the entire thing and building a new system from scratch, and the only way to do that without risking collapse in the first rough moments would be to wholesale import expertise from Sanctuary, and while we want to eventually break the Mascarade I think it's still not the right time. So working with the system is the only way to meaningfully do anything. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if we'll still wind up calling people from Sanctuary to do stuff. Taking over and redeeming morally not-clean institutions is starting to become a bit of our SOP.
 
Yog said:
I was under the impression that the thread was strongly opposed to proper full-scale interaction of FIvefold Courts with Colombian government. Previous two votes (how Molly presents herself and how Tiffany presents herself) were about the degree of interaction. If that is no longer the case now that we have won the network over, I would be very glad to actually do this properly.
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I mean I am strongly opposed yeah. BronzeTongue doesn't seem to have been present and or paying attention back then.

Edit: Are we really going to re-debate two recent votes and discussions? Seriously?
 
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Yog said:
I was under the impression that the thread was strongly opposed to proper full-scale interaction of FIvefold Courts with Colombian government. Previous two votes (how Molly presents herself and how Tiffany presents herself) were about the degree of interaction. If that is no longer the case now that we have won the network over, I would be very glad to actually do this properly.
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No, tiffany's vote was for stealth. I don't agree that it's about the introduction. It's about the secrecy of the operation. I didn't quite agree that we shouldn't introduce ourselves as the leader of the government. but what can you do. Anyway, we can do it later yeah.
 
BoredMan said:
Edit: Are we really going to re-debate two recent votes and discussions? Seriously?
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At some point, though perhaps not right now, they will need to be redebated, yes.

For the moment, however, I would like to reiterate and focus the attention on the question: do we talk to the Library now? Because we have just pulled a soft coup in Colombia. CIA is going to hear something. Do we try to cooperate, or do we fight another shadow war?
 
Yog said:
At some point, though perhaps not right now, they will need to be redebated, yes.

For the moment, however, I would like to reiterate and focus the attention on the question: do we talk to the Library now? Because we have just pulled a soft coup in Colombia. CIA is going to hear something. Do we try to cooperate, or do we fight another shadow war?
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Whatever you say Yog.

We were stealthy about it so I'm not sure why it matters. We don't tell them about all of our activities, I'm not really seeing why we'd need to fight a 'shadow war'. This sounds like jumping the gun. If the Library ask about our activities here we could tell them, baring in mind that they and or those they report to may have concerns over our demonstrated willingness and ability to subvert a Gov entity. Though I'm not seeing why we'd be obligated to bring it to their attention, they aren't our minders.
 
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BoredMan said:
Whatever you say Yog.

We were stealthy about it so I'm not sure why it matters. We don't tell them about all of our activities, I'm not really seeing why we'd need to fight a 'shadow war'. This sounds like jumping the gun. If the Library ask about our activities here we could tell them, baring in mind that they and or those they report to may have concerns over our demonstrated willingness and ability to subvert a Gov entity. Though I'm not seeing why we'd be obligated to bring it to their attention, they aren't our minders.
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Because the Library of Congress is not, in fact, USA government. And because we just soft-couped Colombia, which USA has vested interests in. CIA and the like will meddle, and it is, in my opinion, better to prevent lethal misunderstandings than deal with them later.
 
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