Taking land from poaching seems pretty extreme to me. This could set a precedent, we are a princess with the backing of a Great house. This could give nobles the excuse to fake poaching crimes against the peasants to increase their lands. Or other ideas.

Blighted farm. Worse than fucking useless to him. By their own admission the wife wouldn't be able to handle the farm without him. If he gets sent to the wall A, he'd lose all property and land anyway. And B his wife wouldn't be able to manage it and feed the child anyway, so we'd simply see the same case later with the mother having stolen food this time after Lord Starks support for those blighted has ended with the crop failures gone.

Losing the farm is a lesser punishment than the wall. he keeps his wife and child. He repays the value of the buck by serving Lord Stark. And if he's an archer hunting deer he's either a skilled archer and soldier, or has been hunting/poaching more than once, and this is simply the first time he got caught.

He's got no small amount of skill or at the very least raw natural talent. He can serve the lord stark until Lord stark says otherwise. And by happy coincidence his wife and child will be kept fed and warm, and also close at hand in case the poacher gets the bright idea to vanish into the forest.

Beyond that. Practically speaking. if lords wanted to take poachers farms, confiscating land is nothing new, they'd have already been able to do this by faking crimes to send men to the wall or taking a hand anyway and waiting for them to drop dead. From disease, starvation, bloodloss, any number of issues relating to losing a hand.
 
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Thanks for that clarification.

I think my broader point holds that even if medieval law is confused about where burden of proof falls, that doesn't actually change how it works...
The thing is that as a practical matter, if Rhaenyra is going to be trusted as a judge, she's going to need to adhere to standards of proof that make sense within the culture where she judges cases. If her standards seem unreasonable or capricious, she will face serious long term consequences, not for living the life she wants but because we're just doing a bunch of OOC stuff to feel good about ourselves in a game we don't even have to play.

And in this culture, the burden of proof in this kind of (what amounts to) civil case between nobility is decided based on a 'balance of evidence' standard. The Forresters have presented evidence, not totally indisputable evidence, but evidence. The Whitehills have basically nothing except their own personal word.

Their word is worth enough that, in this culture, it would be seen as biased against them to, say, take it as absolute certainty that they had sabotaged the dam with malice aforethought. But given that they're apparently not prepared to declare under oath that the man was not their armsman, and also that they don't seem to have thought of any way to even try to prove that their armsmen are all accounted for and not, y'know, dead in a Forrester dungeon... Well, let's just say that the Forrester evidence meets enough of a burden of proof that finding against the Lighthills is to an extent supported.

When we're queen we can just forbid people who are not our heir from trying to claim dragons.
That's pretty much the normal practice, but it opens up a lot of risks. I'm not a fan of the Targaryen incest practices, but there isn't a great solution to the problem of "anyone descended from these specific human beings has a shot of being able to convince a dragon to let them ride, and the dragons aren't necessarily picky about which someones."

It's sort of like how I'm not a fan of the Ottoman and Mughal tendency of a reigning emperor to kill off his brothers, but I have to admit that that it's kind of understandable how that sort of custom emerges when the alternative they've experienced is "have multiple rounds of succession wars in every generation, spaced every 5-10 years apart forever" as opposed to having such succession wars every 20-30 years apart or so.

Or keep everything between a main and a cadet branch.
That's more or less what we already do with the Velaryons. As we observe, it's already enough to make things quite nervous because of the five dragonriders in Westeros right now, three of them are Velaryons. They are in a disturbingly good position to play kingmaker or queenmaker.

I'm not saying that the Targaryen incest practice is good, viewed in and of itself. But being a medieval monarch of any kind with any kind of inheritance system creates a lot of problems (this is why nobody has this kind of government anymore), and to a large extent there ARE no good solutions, only "the solution that minimizes the risk of your entire family dying" and/or "the solution that minimizes the risk of having big civil wars that kill tens or hundreds of thousands of people on the regular."

This is actually a very bad argument for the death penalty. It would be a decent argument that the poacher deserves a more lenient punishment - something I'd hope most of us think - but unfortunately the poacher is the one on which our hands are the most tied. The legal precedent is the most clear there.
The thing is, we still send that message by condemning this particular guy to the Wall in this particular case in the context of this particular poacher also being sent. Even if there's an argument of "we totally had to follow precedent."

By that logic the next time a cattle thief steels a sheep the whitehills could torture him and have him confess to being a forrester man. Or a targaryen man. And while they're at it why not have him confess to stealing a whole flock of sheep and a batch of dragons too.

Ultimately, torture doesn't get reliable confessions.

[] [First] Write-in: It's clear that the 'evidence' obtained at the point of a knife from a bandit is suspect. No doubt once the brigand was put to the question he would claim anything in the hopes that it would end the questioning...
The problem is that if we establish this precedent and stick to it, we're going to have basically the entire Westerosi nobility up in arms, metaphorically or possibly literally, about our refusal to provide them with justice.

It kind of takes a revolutionary change in how justice is administered to actually abolish a practice like "torturing confessions out of peasants," and we're not in a position to begin that revolution here and now.

[] [Third] Write-in "The punishment is intended to ensure you don't steal again. Your farm is blighted, easy enough to return that to the Lord Paramount for him to bestow it on another. Congratulations on hunting the buck. You'll serve your lord with both hands as an archer, until your service has paid off the worth of the buck. And the rations the soldier spared you. Your wife can't handle the farm alone and your daughter can't be allowed to starve. Your wife and child will be employed by the lord Stark, to serve his guests, work in his kitchens, cook and clean. (Subject to QM Approval)
The fundamental problem with this one is that you're not addressing the nobility's interest in preventing poaching. There are a LOT of peasants in Westeros who could use more game on the table, and no one can catch every poacher because the nobles can't afford to hire an army to patrol the forests. So from the nobility's point of view if there isn't a high punitive cost for getting caught poaching, the peasants are going to filter into the forests more and more and pretty soon poaching will be ubiquitous.

Now, if you want to say 'fuck the nobles' attitude, I don't care,' then out of character I sympathize, but in character we're setting up Rhaenyra for trouble.

The entire reason why there are such firmly established and very brutal penalties for poaching is because the entire noble class agrees that it is a Big Deal and insists in lockstep that it be treated accordingly.
 
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The thing is, we still send that message by condemning this particular guy to the Wall in this particular case in the context of this particular poacher also being sent. Even if there's an argument of "we totally had to follow precedent."

I'll probably respond to the rest of this at a later date, but the argument for executing the guy by comparison with the poacher is that morally, what the poacher did is not that bad, so it's unfair to send him to the Wall if we do not do something worse to the seditious man.

For those for whom it may be unclear, the reason this is a terrible argument is that executing the seditious man does not actually help the poacher at all - his situation is exactly the same whether he is sent to the wall alongside the seditious man or the man is executed. Executing the seditious man does not make sending the poacher to the wall a more lenient sentence than sending the poacher to the wall if we also send the seditious man to the wall, it is the same fate. So in universe this is really just weaponizing fairness to excuse cruelty.

But if you want to go to the message or the look of the thing, the whole reason our hands are tied on the poacher is that poaching (regardless of the daughter etc.) is considered by Westerosi nobility to be a very serious crime and they expect a serious punishment for it. It's not that we are giving the seditious man the same lenient punishment we gave to someone for a minor crime, because poaching in this society is not a minor crime.

Edit: I'm sort of skeptical of write-ins pledging this guy to Lord Stark's service or w/e, because like we do not have Lord Stark's okay on that and we have no real way of getting his okay for that on the spot without doing it publicly. In which case we might as well just spare him, because trying to get Lord Stark's okay on that is going to look like we're trying to find an excuse to spare this guy anyway. And if we try to foist this guy on Lord Stark without his preapproval, then he might well take offense - why would he want a peasant who he knows has stolen from him in his service? And isn't this kind of a promotion? Even outright pardoning him is probably the safer bet from Lord Stark's perspective, since it does not put someone he knows to be a thief (even if for sympathetic reasons) in closer contact with his stuff.
 
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The entire reason why there are such firmly established and very brutal penalties for poaching is because the entire noble class agrees that it is a Big Deal and insists in lockstep that it be treated accordingly.

I do think that this case sets up a very specific burden of proof. That, yes, suddenly his farm is blighted and it's hit his stores of food. And that eating it is likely to lead to death. And given the travel involved that it was likely his daughter would starve to death on the road as he sought succour from his lord.

The punishment is, yes, intended to ensure that poachers don't poach, or at the very least aren't able to poach a second time.

But he's already swearing up and down that it will never happen again.

And frankly. Given the choice of losing a daughter, losing a hand, or being sent to the wall. Most fathers would be willing to lose the hand or go to the wall. So either of those options aren't going to stop this exact case from happening.

Compared to the loss of a child neither the loss of a hand or being sent to the wall will be sufficient detterent. Not only that, but either of those could lead to the daughters death anyway from the farm not being able to be worked.

So. In this very narrow set of circumstances. I judge that the best thing to do is have the man make recompense to lord stark as best he's able, and in such a way that his wife and daughter don't then have to steal or poach themselves down the line in a repeat.
 
I'll probably respond to the rest of this at a later date, but the argument for executing the guy by comparison with the poacher is that morally, what the poacher did is not that bad, so it's unfair to send him to the Wall if we do not do something worse to the seditious man.

For those for whom it may be unclear, the reason this is a terrible argument is that executing the seditious man does not actually help the poacher at all - his situation is exactly the same whether he is sent to the wall alongside the seditious man or the man is executed. Executing the seditious man does not make sending the poacher to the wall a more lenient sentence than sending the poacher to the wall if we also send the seditious man to the wall, it is the same fate. So in universe this is really just weaponizing fairness to excuse cruelty.

But if you want to go to the message or the look of the thing, the whole reason our hands are tied on the poacher is that poaching (regardless of the daughter etc.) is considered by Westerosi nobility to be a very serious crime and they expect a serious punishment for it. It's not that we are giving the seditious man the same lenient punishment we gave to someone for a minor crime, because poaching in this society is not a minor crime.
Feel like we're getting a little wrapped up in morality or almost philosophical talks.

I'm not trying to help or make the Poacher feel better about things by doing something bad to the Merchant.

He did worse things. So he should be punished worse. It's that simple.

By Rhaenyra's own admission, if the Merchant is guilty of his crimes, the punishment should unequivically be death. And he is guilty.
He admits to saying treason and his defense against his words are that he was drunk, not applicable because so was everyone in the pub and they didn't say what he did.
He says that he didn't intend for things to happen, yet they happened because of his actions anyway.
He says that he didn't throw the first punch, but witnesses say that he actively participated in the brawl, which again, he started.

The crimes of the seditious man and the Poacher are not the same severity, which is why the option to execute the Poaching Peasant isn't even on the table. It's also why everyone started murmering at the Merchant's words when they were repeated.

Saying that we shouldn't punish him more strictly because...what, it wouldn't help the Poacher at all, and is thus needless cruelty? It is not needless nor cruel to punish him to the full extent of the Law, for which he has definitively broken, nor is the severity, and thus required punishment, of his crime equal to the Poacher.
 
For those for whom it may be unclear, the reason this is a terrible argument is that executing the seditious man does not actually help the poacher at all - his situation is exactly the same whether he is sent to the wall alongside the seditious man or the man is executed. Executing the seditious man does not make sending the poacher to the wall a more lenient sentence than sending the poacher to the wall if we also send the seditious man to the wall, it is the same fate. So in universe this is really just weaponizing fairness to excuse cruelty.
First, I have actually suggested something more merciful for the poacher than sending him to the wall myself. Namely, reducing the poacher to a tenant farmer on what was formerly his own land (or some other land) by giving the land to the Starks. Better than being dead or sent to the Wall!

Second, there is a broader context to justice in this kind of society. We're not just trying to be optimal philosopher-queens/kings reasoning out the best course of action in every case. There is a performative aspect to this because as monarchs in this kind of society the role of "chief judge" is actually an important part of our job. To be respected as a potential reigning queen, we must be seen to perform the role of "being a good chief judge" by the standards of this society.

As a result, any inconsistency in our actions, or any excess either of leniency or cruelty, that is perceived, even if it is not rationally justified, becomes a problem for us.

Judges in a bureaucratic modern state do not have this problem, unless of course they are elected judges who can lose an election if the populace decides it disapproves of them. But we very much do have this problem; every time we dispense justice we are being seen to do it by people who are in turn evaluating our performance according to their own culturally constructed standards, and whose evaluation of us will in the long run have consequences.
 
I do think that this case sets up a very specific burden of proof. That, yes, suddenly his farm is blighted and it's hit his stores of food. And that eating it is likely to lead to death. And given the travel involved that it was likely his daughter would starve to death on the road as he sought succour from his lord.

The punishment is, yes, intended to ensure that poachers don't poach, or at the very least aren't able to poach a second time.

But he's already swearing up and down that it will never happen again.

And frankly. Given the choice of losing a daughter, losing a hand, or being sent to the wall. Most fathers would be willing to lose the hand or go to the wall. So either of those options aren't going to stop this exact case from happening.
Yes, but this exact case is a fluke.

What it comes down to here is that the 'cash value' of a stag is just not all that high. There are lots of them and theoretically any fucko who knows how to walk through a forest without making too much noise can go kill one pretty much any time. If we treat this as a property crime that can be made whole by paying the cost of the stag, the message sent to the nobility is "Rhaenyra let a poacher go with a fine that is a slap on the wrist compared to what is customary." The only way to make it work would be to let the Starks themselves set the 'price' of a poached stag as high as they like, and given that the Starks are not known for being an especially greedy household, this means the Starks will feel under pressure to keep the price low for their reputation's sake... in which case we've kind of punted the difficult part of the judgment over to Lord Stark and then pressured them to make the judgment in a way disadvantageous to himself.

This is why I suggested treating it as a really severe property crime, for which the penalty is loss of very valuable property, namely the peasant's entire landhold, reducing him to tenant farmer status.

Because a peasant can work off any reasonable 'price' of a single stag pretty quickly. Several acres of land (the typical holdings of a subsistence farming family, and about as much as they can plausibly actually cultivate) is definitely a lot more valuable, and so we have hope that the nobles will be satisfied that we have levied appropriate punitive damages... While still leaving the family's breadwinner un-maimed and present in his wife and child's lives.
 
When we're queen we can just forbid people who are not our heir from trying to claim dragons. Or keep everything between a main and a cadet branch. The "we need to keep the dragons in the family" and all of the other rationales for Targaryen incest are not actually good reasons, they're post-facto rationales mostly made up by fans who missed the point and for whom it is their magical realm or who like the idea of the "the dragon does not mate with beasts of the field." The actual in-universe reason the Targaryens practice incest is because Aegon wanted to fuck his sister, and then later Jaehaerys also wanted to fuck his sister. This is not Chesterton's Fence, we know why it is there and it is not a good reason.
I too think incest is a disgusting practice that we should break, however I do think it's important to note that even if we do try to forbid anyone we don't want from claiming a dragon, rulers before us have tried as well and failed and there is a precedent of people with and even without Targaryen blood claiming dragons without permission.

Aerea Targaryen claimed Balerion of all dragons without permission from Jaehaerys or Alysanne during a time where her attitude towards the ruling king and queen could have been described as hateful, Elissa Farman had dragon eggs without permission from Jaehaerys or Alysanne and was never caught, Daemon stole Baelon's dragon egg, and Aemond claimed Vhagar both of which happened without the permission of Viserys, and Maegor also claimed Balerion without any permission from Aenys and it could be argued Viserys probably didn't want Laena to claim Vhagar but she still did it.

Now say what you want about Aenys, Viserys and Jaehaerys (Oh there's so much to be said about that bastard Jaehaerys) but for all their faults they were still the ruling kings and had dragons and armies, yet dragons and dragon eggs were still taken right under their noses, so even if we try to enforce rules that only those with our consent can claim dragons, there's no guarantee someone won't anyways.

And let's say someone is very stubborn, they absoultely will not back down and will claim a dragon in broad daylight and won't be stopped no matter what we say, well what then? Do we kinslay them and be reviled by everyone? Well at that point we would have to because if we don't then someone just claimed a dragon and openly dismissed our authority and now if they have bad intentions towards us and our rule then we have to have a very messy and catastrophic fight atop dragonback.

So while I understand your sentiment, it is not as simple as "Because we said so and we have a crown" or "Fans just made up this excuse" the matter is much more complex than that.

Now since I think I've shown the fragility of authority and how Targaryen incest while repulsive was likely a bit neccessary, listen it's either we chop off this blokes head here and now and people wisen up the fact that the ruling family is not openly insulted, or mayhaps down the line after many more insults, loss of authority and respect, and being seen as weak, we have to chop off some blokes head anyways because someone got a bit too bold.

I could say more but this message is already very long, and I think i've made my point.
 
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[X][First] Compromise: There is no evidence for Forresters' claim that the road should be toll-free. As the Boltons are currently maintaining the road, it is their right to allow the Whitehills to levy tolls along it. So far as this court is concerned, the tolls stand as they are now, not to be altered until the dam is completed. However, the saboteur confessed to being a Whitehill armsman before dying. As the Whitehills apparently have no evidence that the saboteur was not one of their armsmen, they must be held at least partly liable for the sabotage. The court holds that the Whitehills must pay half the costs of the dam reconstruction. The court admonishes the Forresters for having tortured the key witness to death, thus weakening the evidence of their own claims. Hypothetically, if the saboteur was here to testify today, then the Forresters might have been awarded higher damages.
[X] [Second] Send him to the Wall for inciting the fight and have a wergild paid to the families of the dead from his possessions.
[X] [Third] Send him to the Wall
 
I'm not trying to help or make the Poacher feel better about things by doing something bad to the Merchant.

He did worse things. So he should be punished worse. It's that simple.

Yes, I'm aware that's how you think, and that is a very bad way to do reasoning.

Our punishment of the poacher, unfortunately, cannot be just. We are being unjustly more harsh than he deserves, because of the politics of the situation. The seditious man's crime is greater than the poachers, so a just punishment for the seditious man would be worse than a just punishment for the poacher. But the unjust punishment that we're going to levy on the poacher tells us nothing about what the punishment should be for the seditious man - it could be that a just punishment for the sedition is less than the unjust punishment for the poaching - although in this case we have to give the seditious man an unjust punishment as well.

As a response to some of the stuff @Simon_Jester has been saying - the idea that we need to execute this guy because otherwise that will encourage people to be seditious of us over the incest thing and then we'll have to flee Westeros and even then what if they chase us down is completely crazy, because one thing we learned via this is that people actually like the Targaryens enough that if you are badmouthing Viserys like this, ordinary citizens and merchants will actually assault you over it. We are not in danger of some eminent crusade against all the descendants of incest, led by one dumb drunk merchant.

Also, I'm just going to point out - the story that he didn't throw the first punch makes a lot more sense then the idea that he did, because him throwing the first punch requires him being seditious and then later assaulting someone, and then thinking he could get out of the assault allegations but his earlier comments were for sure undeniable.

And I know this cannot be how we make decisions and so I'm for sending the guy to the wall, but because I do think this is worth bearing in mind - presuming that he did not actually start it, but if this happened IRL and it couldn't be proved that the guy started it, I think he'd just walk. The "sedition" stuff would be obviously freedom of speech, and killing multiple people in self defense does not make it less self defense - as long as the remaining assailants continued assaulting him then he's justified in continuing to defend himself.

Like I said, I'm not saying he should go free, because obviously Westeros is not the US, but I do think it's worth bearing in mind that from a modern perspective not only did what he did not deserve death but it doesn't even actually deserve any legal punishment at all (unless he was the aggressor, in which case obviously murder or at least manslaughter).

So while I understand your sentiment, it is not as simple as "Because we said so and we have a crown" or "Fans just made up this excuse" the matter is much more complex than that.

Now since I think I've shown the fragility of authority and how Targaryen incest while repulsive was likely a bit neccessary, listen it's either we chop of this blokes head here and now and people wisen up the fact that the ruling family is not openly insulted, or mayhaps down the line after many more insults, loss of authority and respect, and being seen as weak, we have to chop off some blokes head anyways because someone got a bit too bold.

I could say more but this message is already very long, and I think i've made my point.

I mean, in none of the above cases do we know that the Targaryen monarchs made any attempt to forbid or deny claiming dragons - and in fact all evidence is to the contrary. The one exception is Elissa stealing dragon eggs - but this is the clear outlier, as it was clearly illegal and she fled afterward. It also coincidentally did not result in any dragons outside royal authority.

As I've said before, I think you would have a point if like some subset of Jaehaerys, Alysanne, Barth, Alyssa, and Rogar sat down and decided that this is part of how they were going to half to control things. But they didn't.

You don't make this argument, but since it's adjacent - it is also not true that the incest was part of any long-term Valyrian cultural tradition that might have evolved as a way to keep dragonriding limited - Valyrian dragonriding families could have just as equally kept dragonriding among themselves by marrying each other, the same way every other nobility does. And in fact their other unusual marriage tradition (polygamy) would tend to make keeping the dragons in the family harder.
 
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updating my vote. I do think that forrester's are more or less right on what happened. but it is nuts to make the Whitehills pay for the full dam with only this evidence. The argument for executing the drunk guy worked on me. And we ether need to send the farmer to the Wall or eat the cost of going easy on him, I am not a fan of the gift idea for this reason as it seems to be one of these having cake and eating it too ideas.

[X][First] Compromise: There is no evidence for Forresters' claim that the road should be toll-free. As the Boltons are currently maintaining the road, it is their right to allow the Whitehills to levy tolls along it. So far as this court is concerned, the tolls stand as they are now, not to be altered until the dam is completed. However, the saboteur confessed to being a Whitehill armsman before dying. As the Whitehills apparently have no evidence that the saboteur was not one of their armsmen, they must be held at least partly liable for the sabotage. The court holds that the Whitehills must pay half the costs of the dam reconstruction. The court admonishes the Forresters for having tortured the key witness to death, thus weakening the evidence of their own claims. Hypothetically, if the saboteur was here to testify today, then the Forresters might have been awarded higher damages.

[X] [Second] Execute Him

[X] [Third] Send him to the Wall
 
Yes, I'm aware that's how you think, and that is a very bad way to do reasoning.
It is also how the main character is likely to be thinking, and importantly how quite a lot of the effectively nationwide audience who are judging "how does Rhaenyra perform the role of a judge, in accordance with my expectations of how a judge should behave" by watching cases such as this.

The fact that we were, according to your lights, perfectly logical and consistent in all things will get Rhaenyra precisely zero prizes in Westeros.

...

My own position is to attempt to mitigate the injustice of the punishment against the poacher by reducing it to, in effect, "he now has to pay a type of taxes directly to the Starks, when he didn't before, and the Starks are probably some of the least-bad landlords to have in all of Westeros, so hopefully that will work out okay in the long run."

In theory, this would then give us cover to send the seditionist riot-starter to the Wall without creating a juxtaposition where a man whose excuse was "my starving daughter" and a man whose excuse was "I was really drunk" get the same punishment.

However, I would argue that mandating actual execution is the minimum, not for reasons of "justice as Hailcapital sees it," but for reasons of broader statecraft.

...

Again, medieval kings and nobles exercising the power of judging legal cases are not ideal spherical frictionless philosophical justice-bots operating in a vacuum. There are the concerns of:

1) Ensuring that the judge's own power base is not undermined directly by the nature of the judgement, unfortunate but a matter of self-defense for a person in Rhaenyra's position.
2) Ensuring that the public as a whole has faith in the judge and the law, which means adhering not to ideal spherical frictionless philosophical justice-robot thinking, but adhering to the cultural and political norms of the society, that is to say performing judgeship.

By way of analogy, being a good general in premodern warfare is not about being optimal at moving soldiers around like pieces on a game board, as communications and observation technology do not permit the general to do this with their forces in battle. One key element of good generalship is simply to maintain morale and confidence in the army's ability to win by performing generalship.

By way of example, a medieval European general from, say, the Hundred Years' War who at the start of a battle dragged out a goat in front of his army and sacrificed it to Zeus would probably cause his army to fall into chaos and dissension, with many of the soldiers refusing to follow the heretic/infidel into battle at all, and possibly some of them even turning on him for their souls' sake. He would not be a good general, because creeping out your soldiers and convincing them they are going to Hell for obeying your orders right before battle is a very stupid thing to do.

By contrast, a Greek general of the time of the Peloponnesian War who failed to sacrifice a goat to Zeus would cause very much the same problem in reverse. His men would be fearful of going into battle under an impious commander, in case Zeus punished the commander with military disaster. So whereas in 1400 AD in France (or for that matter Greece) sacrificing a goat to Zeus is very bad generalship, in 400 BC, sacrificing a goat to Zeus is standard best practices for any general who wants a hope of victory.

If soldiers and generals were ideal spherical frictionless war-bots in a vacuum, then sacrificing a goat to Zeus would have nothing to do with the quality of a commander's generalship. To do it would mean nothing, and to not do it would mean nothing. But in the reality of a particular time and place, where the definition of 'a general you can trust' is culturally constructed and tied into larger overarching belief systems, the decision to sacrifice or not to sacrifice that goat can mean a lot.

Judgeship is much the same.

As a response to some of the stuff @Simon_Jester has been saying - the idea that we need to execute this guy because otherwise that will encourage people to be seditious of us over the incest thing and then we'll have to flee Westeros and even then what if they chase us down is completely crazy, because one thing we learned via this is that people actually like the Targaryens enough that if you are badmouthing Viserys like this, ordinary citizens and merchants will actually assault you over it. We are not in danger of some eminent crusade against all the descendants of incest, led by one dumb drunk merchant.
This is an absurd strawman version of the point I am making, and you should know it.

updating my vote. I do think that forrester's are more or less right on what happened. but it is nuts to make the Whitehills pay for the full dam with only this evidence. The argument for executing the drunk guy worked on me. And we ether need to send the farmer to the Wall or eat the cost of going easy on him, I am not a fan of the gift idea for this reason as it seems to be one of these having cake and eating it too ideas.
I still think my write-in for the third case (the first of the two I've approval-voted) would be workable, in that it is a severe punishment that any man of his status would fear to suffer, and one that more than compensates the noble who has been offended against, while also preserving the man's life and letting him continue to be there for his family.

[X][First] Compromise: There is no evidence for Forresters' claim that the road should be toll-free. As the Boltons are currently maintaining the road, it is their right to allow the Whitehills to levy tolls along it. So far as this court is concerned, the tolls stand as they are now, not to be altered until the dam is completed. However, the saboteur confessed to being a Whitehill armsman before dying. As the Whitehills apparently have no evidence that the saboteur was not one of their armsmen, they must be held at least partly liable for the sabotage. The court holds that the Whitehills must pay half the costs of the dam reconstruction. The court admonishes the Forresters for having tortured the key witness to death, thus weakening the evidence of their own claims. Hypothetically, if the saboteur was here to testify today, then the Forresters might have been awarded higher damages.

[X][Second] Execute him.
OR
[X][Second] Write-In: Execute him. Also decree that the first claim on the traitor merchant's estate will go to pay customary damages for wrongful death to the survivors of each of the three dead men. If there is anything left for the merchant's heirs to inherit after the wrongful death damages have been paid, then they can have it.

[X][Third] Write-In: In recognition of the poacher's unusual and desperate conditions, and that he may remain able-bodied and capable of supporting his daughter, the court will allow him to compensate Lord Stark by forfeiting all his land. The land is now Stark property, to rent to tenants or otherwise to do with as they see fit.
OR
[x] [Third] Write-In: Send him to the Gift, to farm the land in bond to the Watch
 
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I mean, in none of the above cases do we know that the Targaryen monarchs made any attempt to forbid or deny claiming dragons - and in fact all evidence is to the contrary. The one exception is Elissa stealing dragon eggs - but this is the clear outlier, as it was clearly illegal and she fled afterward. It also coincidentally did not result in any dragons outside royal authority.
Daemon's action were treasonous and I don't think anyone would be willing to argue that Viserys was happy when he heard the news, IIRC after Aemond got scared off by Dreamfyre he gets told by Alicent he's not allowed near dragons anymore, Aerea was almost treasonous towards Jaehaerys and Alysanne and Jaehaerys is rather notorious for restricting female Targaryens, and considering Vhagar was the largest dragon in the world at the time, I doubt Viserys wanted Laena to claim Vhagar considering that House Velaryon was already being rather disrespectful towards the ruling family.

The only real iffy situations are Maegor, Laena, and Aemond and even then it's not exactly like they asked Aenys and Viserys before claiming the biggest dragons in the world, and as shown with Daemon, dragon keepers won't harm princes and princesses of the blood.

So again, even if we forbid it, people could still go under our noses and claim a dragon and then it's a difficult choice of become a kinslayer to stop them, or fight them on dragonback and still become a kinslayer, or you know them, let them get away without reprecussions and snub our authority while setting a dangerous precedent.
 
It is also how the main character is likely to be thinking, and importantly how quite a lot of the effectively nationwide audience who are judging "how does Rhaenyra perform the role of a judge, in accordance with my expectations of how a judge should behave" by watching cases such as this.

The fact that we were, according to your lights, perfectly logical and consistent in all things will get Rhaenyra precisely zero prizes in Westeros.

...

My own position is to attempt to mitigate the injustice of the punishment against the poacher by reducing it to, in effect, "he now has to pay a type of taxes directly to the Starks, when he didn't before, and the Starks are probably some of the least-bad landlords to have in all of Westeros, so hopefully that will work out okay in the long run."

In theory, this would then give us cover to send the seditionist riot-starter to the Wall without creating a juxtaposition where a man whose excuse was "my starving daughter" and a man whose excuse was "I was really drunk" get the same punishment.

However, I would argue that mandating actual execution is the minimum, not for reasons of "justice as Hailcapital sees it," but for reasons of broader statecraft.

...

Again, medieval kings and nobles exercising the power of judging legal cases are not ideal spherical frictionless philosophical justice-bots operating in a vacuum. There are the concerns of:

1) Ensuring that the judge's own power base is not undermined directly by the nature of the judgement, unfortunate but a matter of self-defense for a person in Rhaenyra's position.
2) Ensuring that the public as a whole has faith in the judge and the law, which means adhering not to ideal spherical frictionless philosophical justice-robot thinking, but adhering to the cultural and political norms of the society, that is to say performing judgeship.

By way of analogy, being a good general in premodern warfare is not about being optimal at moving soldiers around like pieces on a game board, as communications and observation technology do not permit the general to do this with their forces in battle. One key element of good generalship is simply to maintain morale and confidence in the army's ability to win by performing generalship.

By way of example, a medieval European general from, say, the Hundred Years' War who at the start of a battle dragged out a goat in front of his army and sacrificed it to Zeus would probably cause his army to fall into chaos and dissension, with many of the soldiers refusing to follow the heretic/infidel into battle at all, and possibly some of them even turning on him for their souls' sake. He would not be a good general, because creeping out your soldiers and convincing them they are going to Hell for obeying your orders right before battle is a very stupid thing to do.

By contrast, a Greek general of the time of the Peloponnesian War who failed to sacrifice a goat to Zeus would cause very much the same problem in reverse. His men would be fearful of going into battle under an impious commander, in case Zeus punished the commander with military disaster. So whereas in 1400 AD in France (or for that matter Greece) sacrificing a goat to Zeus is very bad generalship, in 400 BC, sacrificing a goat to Zeus is standard best practices for any general who wants a hope of victory.

If soldiers and generals were ideal spherical frictionless war-bots in a vacuum, then sacrificing a goat to Zeus would have nothing to do with the quality of a commander's generalship. To do it would mean nothing, and to not do it would mean nothing. But in the reality of a particular time and place, where the definition of 'a general you can trust' is culturally constructed and tied into larger overarching belief systems, the decision to sacrifice or not to sacrifice that goat can mean a lot.

Judgeship is much the same.


This is an absurd strawman version of the point I am making, and you should know it.


I still think my write-in for the third case (the first of the two I've approval-voted) would be workable, in that it is a severe punishment that any man of his status would fear to suffer, and one that more than compensates the noble who has been offended against, while also preserving the man's life and letting him continue to be there for his family.

[X][First] Compromise: There is no evidence for Forresters' claim that the road should be toll-free. As the Boltons are currently maintaining the road, it is their right to allow the Whitehills to levy tolls along it. So far as this court is concerned, the tolls stand as they are now, not to be altered until the dam is completed. However, the saboteur confessed to being a Whitehill armsman before dying. As the Whitehills apparently have no evidence that the saboteur was not one of their armsmen, they must be held at least partly liable for the sabotage. The court holds that the Whitehills must pay half the costs of the dam reconstruction. The court admonishes the Forresters for having tortured the key witness to death, thus weakening the evidence of their own claims. Hypothetically, if the saboteur was here to testify today, then the Forresters might have been awarded higher damages.

[X][Second] Execute him.
OR
[X][Second] Write-In: Execute him. Also decree that the first claim on the traitor merchant's estate will go to pay customary damages for wrongful death to the survivors of each of the three dead men. If there is anything left for the merchant's heirs to inherit after the wrongful death damages have been paid, then they can have it.

[X][Third] Write-In: In recognition of the poacher's unusual and desperate conditions, and that he may remain able-bodied and capable of supporting his daughter, the court will allow him to compensate Lord Stark by forfeiting all his land. The land is now Stark property, to rent to tenants or otherwise to do with as they see fit.
OR
[x] [Third] Write-In: Send him to the Gift, to farm the land in bond to the Watch

you know lets go easy on the farmer, most likely with the vote as is he will still go to the wall, but your forfeiting all his land write-In is a good one for going easy in my mind. also I do like a wergeld so why not on the second write-In.


[X][First] Compromise: There is no evidence for Forresters' claim that the road should be toll-free. As the Boltons are currently maintaining the road, it is their right to allow the Whitehills to levy tolls along it. So far as this court is concerned, the tolls stand as they are now, not to be altered until the dam is completed. However, the saboteur confessed to being a Whitehill armsman before dying. As the Whitehills apparently have no evidence that the saboteur was not one of their armsmen, they must be held at least partly liable for the sabotage. The court holds that the Whitehills must pay half the costs of the dam reconstruction. The court admonishes the Forresters for having tortured the key witness to death, thus weakening the evidence of their own claims. Hypothetically, if the saboteur was here to testify today, then the Forresters might have been awarded higher damages.

[X][Second] Execute him.
OR
[X][Second] Write-In: Execute him. Also decree that the first claim on the traitor merchant's estate will go to pay customary damages for wrongful death to the survivors of each of the three dead men. If there is anything left for the merchant's heirs to inherit after the wrongful death damages have been paid, then they can have it.

[X][Third] Write-In: In recognition of the poacher's unusual and desperate conditions, and that he may remain able-bodied and capable of supporting his daughter, the court will allow him to compensate Lord Stark by forfeiting all his land. The land is now Stark property, to rent to tenants or otherwise to do with as they see fit.
 
[X][First] Compromise: There is no evidence for Forresters' claim that the road should be toll-free. As the Boltons are currently maintaining the road, it is their right to allow the Whitehills to levy tolls along it. So far as this court is concerned, the tolls stand as they are now, not to be altered until the dam is completed. However, the saboteur confessed to being a Whitehill armsman before dying. As the Whitehills apparently have no evidence that the saboteur was not one of their armsmen, they must be held at least partly liable for the sabotage. The court holds that the Whitehills must pay half the costs of the dam reconstruction. The court admonishes the Forresters for having tortured the key witness to death, thus weakening the evidence of their own claims. Hypothetically, if the saboteur was here to testify today, then the Forresters might have been awarded higher damages.

[X] [First] Side with House Whitehill, Keep the Tolls in place.

[X] [Second] Execute Him

[X] [Third] Send him to the Wall
 
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As a response to some of the stuff @Simon_Jester has been saying - the idea that we need to execute this guy because otherwise that will encourage people to be seditious of us over the incest thing and then we'll have to flee Westeros and even then what if they chase us down is completely crazy, because one thing we learned via this is that people actually like the Targaryens enough that if you are badmouthing Viserys like this in a bar, ordinary citizens and merchants will actually assault you over it. We are not in danger of some eminent crusade against all the descendants of incest, led by one dumb drunk merchant.
It does need to be pointed out that the Realm did revolt hard against the Targaryens once over incest and the Realm very distinctly lost and that was with two religious organizations and several lords backing them. The Septons know to shut up now about the fact the King's family tree is basically a straight line.
 
While we are not quite an expert in Law we actually are fairly reasonable in matters of Coin, how significant of a cost would having the Whitehills pay for the full dam or just half the dam be? How reasonable would a road toll be to help fund such an endeavor?
 
Is there any particular reason why, if we're already sending the poacher to the wall anyway, that we can't send his wife and daughter a stipend out of our own pocket to help make up for their husband's and father's lost labor?
 
Is there any particular reason why, if we're already sending the poacher to the wall anyway, that we can't send his wife and daughter a stipend out of our own pocket to help make up for their husband's and father's lost labor?

We do not have our coin on us, so it will be delayed significantly to get to them, perhaps we could ask the Starks for the loan, but it is still an ask.
 
Is there any particular reason why, if we're already sending the poacher to the wall anyway, that we can't send his wife and daughter a stipend out of our own pocket to help make up for their husband's and father's lost labor?
When there are a dozen competing write-in versions, it is very rare for any of them to have an advantage over the available default options.

Honestly this vote is being pretty chaotic and I'm kind of worried that we'll get some kind of crazy outcome from two votes achieving narrow majorities when almost no one would actually want to do both at the same time.

We do not have our coin on us, so it will be delayed significantly to get to them, perhaps we could ask the Starks for the loan, but it is still an ask.
Not much of an ask- ravens mean fast communication, and we've given no one any reason to doubt that we're good for an IOU. And Lord Stark surely knows we must have a sizeable amount of cash with the baggage train of our royal progress even if we can't get it to it immediately.
 
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When there are a dozen competing write-in versions, it is very rare for any of them to have an advantage over the available default options.

Honestly this vote is being pretty chaotic and I'm kind of worried that we'll get some kind of crazy outcome from two votes achieving narrow majorities when almost no one would actually want to do both at the same time.
This is why I prefer the quests who have a moratorium on voting of several hours after the update hits. It allows some more time to talk things out about the votes rather than compelling players to immediately vote on something.

We do not have our coin on us, so it will be delayed significantly to get to them, perhaps we could ask the Starks for the loan, but it is still an ask.
Even if the money is delayed by a few months, the daughter and wife seem like they would benefit more from getting money late than from getting it never. Plus they would probably be spending some of that time in Wintertown waiting for the blight to end, time in which they'd be less stressed for the money.
 
Is there any particular reason why, if we're already sending the poacher to the wall anyway, that we can't send his wife and daughter a stipend out of our own pocket to help make up for their husband's and father's lost labor?

The whole reason to vote to punish the poacher at all is because not doing so would look soft to the nobility of the realm, and going out of our way to help out the wife and daughter because we were affected by his story is also going to look weak, at which point, why not spare him?

Daemon's action were treasonous and I don't think anyone would be willing to argue that Viserys was happy when he heard the news, IIRC after Aemond got scared off by Dreamfyre he gets told by Alicent he's not allowed near dragons anymore, Aerea was almost treasonous towards Jaehaerys and Alysanne and Jaehaerys is rather notorious for restricting female Targaryens, and considering Vhagar was the largest dragon in the world at the time, I doubt Viserys wanted Laena to claim Vhagar considering that House Velaryon was already being rather disrespectful towards the ruling family.

The only real iffy situations are Maegor, Laena, and Aemond and even then it's not exactly like they asked Aenys and Viserys before claiming the biggest dragons in the world, and as shown with Daemon, dragon keepers won't harm princes and princesses of the blood.

So again, even if we forbid it, people could still go under our noses and claim a dragon and then it's a difficult choice of become a kinslayer to stop them, or fight them on dragonback and still become a kinslayer, or you know them, let them get away without reprecussions and snub our authority while setting a dangerous precedent.

Stealing an egg is different than trying to claim a dragon - I guess the Elissa example was not a one off, since you do have a point about Daemon. But again in the other cases (although I admittedly can't remember and haven't checked on Aerea, but I do on the others), your argument is that you think the monarch would have desired that they didn't claim a dragon, and that maybe they should have known this, and that they did not obey the monarchs unstated wishes. And I agree that in some cases it would be reasonable to assume they had these wishes - but we have no evidence any of them ever even spoke these wishes aloud. Assumed unstated wishes are not a royal decree.

And a lot of these examples are children, who are not telepathic and as such wouldn't have known the kings unstated maybe wishes, but in many cases could have been prevented from claiming the dragons in question by simply not being allowed near them.

The only one actually told not to go near dragons is Aemond, but he is not told by the king, the rationale for telling him is not about preventing him from getting a dragon but about preventing him from endangering himself, and this is clearly a temporary rule - he's being told not to risk himself trying to claim a dragon now, not that he is never to get a dragon.
 
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The whole reason to vote to punish the poacher at all is because not doing so would look soft to the nobility of the realm, and going out of our way to help out the wife and daughter because we were affected by his story is also going to look weak, at which point, why not spare him?
Why would it look weak if we're still punishing the poacher? So long as the poacher is punished, what do the nobility care of how we spend a tiny bit of our money? It's not like giving alms to the poor is some unknown or frowned upon act in Westeros.
 
I'm concerned that making the replacement Dam be paid solely by the Whitehalls is a pretty significant punishment that allowing them to keep the toll is unlikely to equate to. I feel the vote where Whitehall only has to pay half of the dam is more reasonable if you want them to pay for it at all (which its reasonable enough if you want to simply side with them entirely) either way most of the dam is effectively going to be coming from the Forester's coffers even if it slides through House Whitehall's hands first, but the rate I can see changing with the cost of the repair.
 
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