I pretty sure there are examples of it in cannon outside Targaryens across Westeros, however it seems kinda used like last resort to stabilize family holdings sort of situation.
Most likely lots of in-fighting if not outright Civil wars have been avoided in Westeros very long history with marriages within filial + political families.
Targaryen incest makes some sense if you take into account that having daughters marry out of the family results in others acquiring dragons, which is the main font of the house's power.
Targaryen incest makes some sense if you take into account that having daughters marry out of the family results in others acquiring dragons, which is the main font of the house's power.
It also makes some sense to avoid diluting the chance of people inheriting the dragonrider genes. I've seen people go into hour long theory walks about dragon rider genes and separate dragon *hatcher* genes and just, so much.
It also makes some sense to avoid diluting the chance of people inheriting the dragonrider genes. I've seen people go into hour long theory walks about dragon rider genes and separate dragon *hatcher* genes and just, so much.
I mean, Nettles exists. Addam's dragonord genes would have been pretty minimal if he was Corlys', and like Daenerys is <8% and Jon <4%. I get that this whole line of thought isn't really explicitly challenged much in-universe, but there are context clues that suggest it's bullshit. Like, it's not an accident that F&B mentions that part of the Targaryen Exceptionalism Jaehaerys claims about them being unlike other men is that they are not suspectable to disease and then his daughter dies of the Shivers. I'm fairly skeptical that GRRM is writing a story in which there actually is some sort of genetically superior dragonriding race. I think the fandom has bought too much into this as a way of justifying in-universe power structures when part of the whole point is that they are unjustified.
Although this is somewhat complicated by the fact that IIRC GRRM has like two people helping him with stuff like AWOIAF and I sort of think they fully lost the plot (and to be honest he might have to) so could have become a case of lunatics running the asylum.
Edit: Also, to the first point though, the whole reason the Doctrine of Exceptionalism exists wasn't that Jaehaerys and Alysanne and Alyssa and Rogar and Barth all had a drawn out discussion and decided that incest was the best way of maintaining a long term monopoly on dragons, or that it would reinforce the ruling family's otherworldliness, or did a study on valyrian dragonlord family trees and determined that those who married outside became less and less able to bond with dragons. And that all this was worth the political price of not making alliances with other families, etc. The reason the doctrine of exceptionalism exists is that Jaehaerys thought his sister was hot.
I mean, Nettles exists. Addam's dragonord genes would have been pretty minimal if he was Corlys', and like Daenerys is <8% and Jon <4%. I get that this whole line of thought isn't really explicitly challenged much in-universe, but there are context clues that suggest it's bullshit. Like, it's not an accident that F&B mentions that part of the Targaryen Exceptionalism Jaehaerys claims about them being unlike other men is that they are not suspectable to disease and then his daughter dies of the Shivers. I'm fairly skeptical that GRRM is writing a story in which there actually is some sort of genetically superior dragonriding race. I think the fandom has bought too much into this as a way of justifying in-universe power structures when part of the whole point is that they are unjustified.
Although this is somewhat complicated by the fact that IIRC GRRM has like two people helping him with stuff like AWOIAF and I sort of think they fully lost the plot (and to be honest he might have to) so could have become a case of lunatics running the asylum.
Edit: Also, to the first point though, the whole reason the Doctrine of Exceptionalism exists wasn't that Jaehaerys and Alysanne and Alyssa and Rogar and Barth all had a drawn out discussion and decided that incest was the best way of maintaining a long term monopoly on dragons, or that it would reinforce the ruling family's otherworldliness, or did a study on valyrian dragonlord family trees and determined that those who married outside became less and less able to bond with dragons. And that all this was worth the political price of not making alliances with other families, etc. The reason the doctrine of exceptionalism exists is that Jaehaerys thought his sister was hot.
I have a vague temptation to run a Rhaena or Aegon the Uncrowned quest when this ends or I put it on Hiatus for whatever reason, in part to make a point of just how much Jaehaerys sucks and how much worse he would look if he weren't king.
You saw no reason to refuse Isembard's deal. The risks were low for both of you, it would help King's Landing, give you an ally within the city, and, if it all worked out, you had a good chance of having something you could use to force Lord Corlys to treat you with more respect.
"Ser Isembard, your offer has peaked my interest," you smiled. "Tomorrow I will write to my father, the King, and encourage him to grant you the needed permits quickly. You should be able move your guilds there before winter sets in."
"Wonderful," Isembard's smile was broad and seemed sincere. "I will begin preparations immediately. Be sure to find me when you return to King's Landing. We will have much to discuss then! Also, I'll be sure to have a thank you gift ready by then. Just need to call in a few favors with a Pentosi Magister."
You weren't exactly sure what in the seven hells this man had lined up for a gift that required the favor of a Magister, but you weren't about to pry. He thanked you again and the two went your seperate ways.
New Relationship Established: Isembard Arryn
Status: Hesitant Ally
New Action Unlocked
Shortly after the feast, the boats prepared for your Progress were ready to sail, taking you and your retinue from Gulltown to White Harbor. The first few days proved deeply unpleasant as your small fleet of ships was caught in a storm. You did not get sea sick easily, but even your stomach was rolling by the end of the first week. The others, particularly poor Gwayne, fared even worse. Thankfully, afterwards the seas calmed somewhat and the autumn winds shifted in your favor, quickening your pace considerably.
You had to admit you preferred traveling by land to sea. Sea travel was quicker and your cabin onboard the Queen Alysanne had far more room than your carriage, but you missed being able to stop and enjoy the countryside every so often. The extra space did little to change the fact you felt rather cramped on the ship. To make matters worse, you couldn't fly on Syrax the entire journey to White Harbor. She was simply too big to even dare chance her landing onboard the deck. Thankfully, Syrax was smart enough to follow the ship as it sailed along the Vale coast. Eventually she parted ways when you reached the Three Sisters and headed north on her own.
After days of sailing, you finally reached White Harbor, the Seven Kingdom's northernmost city. You could not deny it was an impressive sight to behold. Despite being on smaller side, it was far cleaner and better laid out then Gulltown or King's Landing. It's buildings, even those of smallfolk, were made of whitewashed stone with steep slate roofs. It's cobbled streets were wide and ran in straight, neat lines. A river, the White Knife, ran through the middle of it all.
A massive rock dominated by an ancient ringfort marked the entrance to the outer harbor of the city. The fort was abandoned at the moment, the stone's only garrison for the time being various seals. The Manderly's castle, unoriginally called New Castle, stood above the rest of the city, resting on a hill that gave it a clear line of sight on the harbors. The air was cool and crisp, and the clouds overhead seemed to be threatening an early snow.
The harbor was nearly packed full when your ships finally docked, merchants selling timber, wool, and hides mixed with knights from across the Seven Kingdoms eager to prove themselves.
This was no doubt one of the bigger stops on your journey. The Graftons were rich, but they weren't particularly politically powerful and the same could not be said for the Manderlys. House Manderly was probably the second most powerful house in the North and since the Starks were rarely seen south of the Neck, it was the Manderlys most Southerns met when it came to dealings with the North.
The Manderlys were a curious bunch. Like house Targaryens, they were exiles in a foreign land. Originally from the Reach, the Peakes had forced them out a thousand years ago, and the Starks were kind enough to take them in and give them this land. The family kept to the faith of the Seven, even though the rest of the North followed the Old Gods, making them knights in a land of warriors. From what you read, the Manderlys were fiercely loyal to the Starks ever since despite their differences, though they were clearly a family of ambition. They had even nearly married into the Targaryen family a generation ago, though death would end up preventing the union from ever occurring.
Two messages brought by ravens awaited you as you stepped off your ship. The first was from your father, letting you know he had signed off on the permits Isembard needed, and praising you for building alliances. The second was from Jeyne. Dearest Cousin,
Were you anyone else I would be quite annoyed right now, thinking they were trying to dictate my own succession to me. But I owe you too much to simply dismiss your letter and I think I know you decently enough as well to know your letter was made with the best of intentions. I do not know why the Royces insist on making my succession such an important matter. I am barely a woman grown, and since I don't care much for hunting nor do I enjoy knocking men around with swords like you do, odds are good I will live for a considerable while longer.
Never the less, my late cousin's spawn cannot be allowed to claim my seat after I am gone. He is but a child, but he is a child I can never trust. Your idea about the Citadel was good. He will be given to my friends in House Redfort. There he will be provided with every book he could desire and encouraged to focus on books instead of knightly matters. I am told he is bright for his age, so he should find this most agreeable. When he is ten and four he will be given a choice, he can go to the Citadel and become a maester, or he can stay in the Eyrie a few years more and join the Night's Watch when he is an adult. This may seem harsh but I will not tolerate him being the center of a rebellion. I am forever grateful for your help, but I hope to avoid needing your aid again if I can help it.
I do believe there is something we can talk about in regards to your succession, in time, perhaps a decade from now. After you have been forced to do your dreadful duty to the realm.
Please do not take my tone in this letter as a sign our friendship has been impacted in anyway. My ire is saved for my accursed former regent Yorbert. I hope you and your handmaiden enjoy White Harbor.
Also, my dearest Jessamyn asks you to have someone remind her half brother that crab does not agree with his palate. He has a habit of forgetting this.
Best Wishes,
Jeyne Arryn, Lady of the Vale and Warden of the East
Relationship with Lady Jeyne Arryn Degraded
It appeared Jeyne felt as though your letter was stepping on her toes. It wasn't a major deal though. She seemed mildly annoyed at best. You informed one of your servants to be sure to pass his half-sisters message to Ser Redfort and prepared for your visit.
White Harbor provided some major opportunities. Lord Desmond Manderly wanted to speak with you of course, though notably he wanted to have his eldest son Medrick present too. This made something inside you begin to twist up in dread. The Manderlys were powerful enough that you would not be surprised if they flat out asked you to consider a marriage. Lord Manderly's message also mentioned there would be a feast as well after the tourney, though you were not sure you would be able to stomach even more fish so soon.
One Rogar Bolton sent you a message as well not long after your arrival, offering a chance to spar. You recalled seeing a Bolton at the tourneys in both Harrenhal and King's Landing several years ago. Apparently your defeat of Ser Harwin Strong had caught his attention and he wanted a chance to test you.
Of course, the biggest affair at White Harbor was the tourney. It was destined to be a large event no matter what. Lord Desmond wanted to honor both his eldest son's recent knighting and his eighteenth name day. Your covert funding though had turned it from a large affair into perhaps the biggest tourney the north had seen in generations. "The Great Northern Tourney" some were already calling it. Knights from all over the seven Kingdoms had shown up for the event, even from as far away as Dorne and the Reach they had made their way here. A rare event, considering the bitter blood between the Manderlys and most Reach houses.
Numerous lords and ladies from all over had gathered as well to bear witness. Even Lord Beesbury was here to watch. This was one of your best chances you had to try and become a mystery knight. If you entered, and won, it would be a victory in front of the whole realm. Few would be able to deny the glory of your accomplishment or your skill. You were all but certain that a victory here would make your knighthood a certainty. Who could deny you then?
Defeat... you didn't even want think about what a defeat would mean. It was a risk. It was always going to be a risk. You had known that for years. The only question was, did you take that risk now?
114 AC
Actions during a Royal Progress (Take Three Total)
While taking part in a royal progress, turns are shortened. Instead of three months they now represent one stop on the progress. As a result, you are now limited to three actions per turn. These can be three regular actions or three conversations or any combo of the two. Tourneys, feasts, and judgments will all be important parts of your progress due to the vote and there will be multiple examples of each along the trip though not every location will have every option, nor is it expected of you to take every option when presented. So a couple of judgments for example will be enough to satisfy your promises to your father. Also note that some stops will have an interlude, some won't, and a few may even just be covered in an interlude.
Conversations
[] [Conversation] Speak with Alicent Hightower
While your relationship with your lady is new and fresh, it couldn't hurt to talk her and see how she feels about the changes in your personal relationship and how she feels now that you've gone from repressing her feelings to begin to express them more openly. Plus, some quality time with her would be nice.
[] [Conversation] Speak with Gwayne Hightower
If Gwayne doesn't already know about your relationship with Alicent, he probably will learn soon enough. Perhaps you should tell him yourself. He clearly wanted to protect his sister and thus might be willing to help hide your relationship from Otto and others if need be.
[] [Conversation] Speak With Steffon Redfort
He is Jessamyn's half brother. You don't know much about him, but he left a good impression in your first meeting. It would be good to get to know him a bit more and see if he if he is suitable for the City Watch.
[] [Conversation] Speak With Rogar Bolton
You have heard rather dark things about the Boltons over the years. Like how they flay their enemies alive and keep a collection of their skins beneath their castle. Also, they call their castle the Dreadfort, which says so many things. You are curious to see if any of them live up to their grisly reputation
[] [Conversation] Speak with Rhea Royce
Rhea had been relatively silent on matters during the trial. Perhaps it would do well to see where she stood, and what she thought of her father's intentions.
[] [Conversation] Speak with Desmond and Medrick Manderly
The Manderlys had good friends of King Jaehaerys and Queen Alysanne, and Lord Desmond himself had spoken in favor your Cousin Rhaenys during the Great Council. They could prove to be steadfast and powerful allies. Though the Manderlys are known to be very ambitious and who knows what they may ask of you.
[] [Conversation] Speak with Lord Beesbury
It has been a few months since you left home, it would be nice to catch up with a familar face and see how things are fairing in the capital. It also might be good to see what the Master of Coin thinks of Isembard and his plans.
[] [Conversation] Write-in
Subject to QM approval, has to have a reasonable chance of being in Gulltown.
Actions
[] [Action] Relax
After everything you've been through it would be nice to unwind for a bit.
[] [Action] Train
As one of the only places in the North to field Knights, White Harbor has extensive training yards. Most Manderly knights are too busy preparing for the tourney to even consider dueling you but Ser Steffon Redfort is still willing to duel you if you desire, and one Rogar Bolton has expressed interest as well. Of course training out in the open so close to the Tourney could prove risky if you decided to don the armor of a mystery knight as well.
-[] Challenge to a Duel: Raylon has suggested dueling others as a way of sharpening yourself against new blades. Have others find flaws in you that he has missed (Pick One)
--[] [Duel] Ser Steffon Redfort
--[] [Duel] Ser Gwayne Hightower
--[] [Duel] Rogar Bolton
[] [Action] Train with Syrax
Perhaps it would be good to get some practice over the ocean and the vast plains around White Harbor
[] [Action] Enter a Tourney as a Mystery Knight
The Tourney at White Harbor is going to be one of the largest tourneys on your Progress. With only the tourney at Highgarden being comparable in size. There will be few chances better than this to earn the glory and fame you need to become a knight
[] [Action] Study the Tourney
As much as you desired to enter this tourney, you couldn't deny it would be a great chance to learn as well.
[] [Action] Feast
Naturally with a tourney so massive, it only made sense for there to be a feast as well. It is set to be a large affair with lords from all over, to celebrate both the nameday of Lord Manderly's eldest and the victors of the tourney itself.
[] [Action] Take Part in a Judgement
There are no notable legal matters in and around White Harbor that you would be able to rule on.
[] [Action] Take Part in a Hunt
There is some very fertile hunting grounds along the White Knife River, it should be a fairly simple affair to hunt some game there.
[] [Action] Study
There is always room to improve your education and White Harbor had perhaps the largest collection of books in the North.
[] [Action] Improve your Poetry
Your fair lady thankfully quite enjoyed your first attempts but you know you have much room for improvement. Perhaps the striking sights of White Harbor could give you some much needed inspiration.
[] [Action] Study Music
You want to serenade Alicent with music. It's what a proper knight would do after all and she deserves as much. Plus, it just sounds wonderfully romantic. Alicent has been vague about what kind of music she would prefer, saying anything from a Harp to your singing would all be equally wonderful. Regardless, you lack much in the way of training in any sort of music and that had to change.
[] (Action) Write-in
Subject to QM approval
Vote by Plan QM's Notes: The Manderlys are probably my favorite Northern House outside of the Starks, very unique and tend to produce awesome characters. White Harbor in general is also pretty interesting. And yeah, I suspect this is gonna be a highly contested vote since this is one of our biggest tourneys of the entire trip. And a great many things could happen here. please think your votes through carefully, and be civil.
We cant Not paticipate here right? its a coup de grace after beating Harwin nd Killing Arnold at the Eyrie, it builds our myth too well for us to renege on it here, its The gret northern tourney! my only qualm personally is whether we study music or hut. personally.
[X] The Dragon-Knight
-[X] [Action] Enter a Tourney as a Mystery Knight
-[X] [Action] Feast
-[X] [Action] Take Part in a Hunt
I have a vague temptation to run a Rhaena or Aegon the Uncrowned quest when this ends or I put it on Hiatus for whatever reason, in part to make a point of just how much Jaehaerys sucks and how much worse he would look if he weren't king.
I mean, in general yes. But I find it strange to chide him for specifically that. Usually, in the rare cases nobles do marry out of love rather than political alliances, people are cheering them on. Plus, in general his "reconciliation" with the Faith was pretty much using Maegor's subjugation of it to keep it under control, which actually is a political victory. Jaehaerys was a misogynistic prick who couldn't take care of his family and neglected his daughters, but chiding him for not marrying politically just seems a bit odd to me.
...but back to thinking about what actions to t ake. Hm...
I dunno. The feast is basically mandatory, the tourney is something we should take part in, but the hunt seems a bit superfluous. We are already doing social mingling and a martial-social act. Also taking part in a hunt seems superfluous. I feel like we should either study/train something (get Syrax accustomed to northern climate? Prop up our poetry skill? Fight Rogar Bolton?), or have a conversation instead of that.
Bother. There are four actions I'd like to take here: speaking with the Manderlys as our hosts and people TeenSpirit likes to write about; speaking with Beesbury to follow up about Isembard and as a Small Councilor; training with the Bolton to follow up on the idea that had us train with the Braavosi (he is not a knight and presumably won't do knightly combat, so we might learn something), and entering the Great Northern Tourney as a mystery knight.
Of these four, I could probably countenance dropping the Bolton best. We'll be in the North for a while (IIRC, both the Wall and Winterfell are on our itinerary), so we'll probably meet other Northerners to spar with.
On the other hand, if feasting combines two speech actions again, we can take that, both Beesbury and the Manderlys can wait til then, and we can spar with the Bolton and enter the tourney.
On the other hand, if feasting combines two speech actions again, both Beesbury and the Manderlys can wait til then, and we can spar with the Bolton and enter the tourney.
On the other hand, if feasting combines two speech actions again, we can take that, both Beesbury and the Manderlys can wait til then, and we can spar with the Bolton and enter the tourney.
On the one hand, yes; on the other, Manderly might not make so brazen a move as Rhaenyra fears if he's being watched by all his retainers and hers. And Beesbury's conversation isn't about anything confidential.
[X] Plan The Time Has Come
-[X] [Conversation] Speak with Desmond and Medrick Manderly
-[X] [Action] Enter a Tourney as a Mystery Knight
-[X] [Action] Train
--[X] [Duel] Rogar Bolton
Time for the tourney. Otherwise I'm taking the unique opportunities we got here.
Looking at the training option again, it notes that "it could prove risky if you decided to don the armor of a mystery knight as well." And since I'd quite like to enter the Great Northern Tourney, training can go by the wayside. That leaves three of my preferred options available:
[X] Plan: Tourneys, Coins, and Merlings
-[X] [Conversation] Speak with Desmond and Medrick Manderly
-[X] [Conversation] Speak with Lord Beesbury
-[X] [Action] Enter a Tourney as a Mystery Knight
I'll also toss an approval vote to this plan, since we can talk to the Manderly, and one other character, during the feast (and indeed talking with the Manderly during the feast might be preferable to doing so in private for the reasons stated above):
[X]Tourneys and Coins
-[X] [Action] Enter a Tourney as a Mystery Knight
-[X] [Action] Feast
-[X] [Conversation] Speak with Lord Beesbury
Looking at the training option again, it notes that "it could prove risky if you decided to don the armor of a mystery knight as well." And since I'd quite like to enter the Great Northern Tourney, training can go by the wayside. That leaves three of my preferred options available:
[x] Plan: Tourneys, Coins, and Merlings
-[x] [Conversation] Speak with Desmond and Medrick Manderly
-[x] [Conversation] Speak with Lord Beesbury
-[x] [Action] Enter a Tourney as a Mystery Knight
I'll also toss an approval vote to this plan, since we can talk to the Manderly, and one other character, during the feast (and indeed talking with the Manderly during the feast might be preferable to doing so in private for the reasons stated above):
[x]Tourneys and Coins
-[X] [Action] Enter a Tourney as a Mystery Knight
-[X] [Action] Feast
-[X] [Conversation] Speak with Lord Beesbury