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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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BoredMan said:
He becomes a fucking Denarian in the books.

Also people do realize that working with criminals like this will cause problems with the government later on right?
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All the better reason to bring him under our benevolent wing sooner rather than later.

As for working with criminals, well, if we can work with the government we can work with the mob. There is depressingly little difference, except I find it easier to assume competence on the part of Marcone than I do the vast, overwhelming majority of politicians and government officials in the setting.
 
[X] Refuse, you do not have the time to deal with him yet, but you have better offers of friendship than the crime boss of Chicago

Yeah, after some thinking, and a lot of arguments heard, it's much better to empower SI, and maybe organize some black ops teams. Fairly sure we don't need Marcone. We shouldn't be making him a priority, but helping him... What for?
 
Goldfish said:
All the better reason to bring him under our benevolent wing sooner rather than later.

As for working with criminals, well, if we can work with the government we can work with the mob. There is depressingly little difference, except I find it easier to assume competence on the part of Marcone than I do the vast, overwhelming majority of politicians and government officials in the setting.
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Maybe, things can certainly be butterflied away but it should be kept in mind that willfully becoming a Denarian requires a mentality that likely won't be going anywhere.

There's a huge difference. The government has massively more resources to make an issue of themselves with and we are invested in our political position with them because it effects our dealings with the Library of Congress and Masquerade handling later on.

Earth-Destroyer said:
and crime disappears in a year.
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Not how humans work.
 
[X] Get down to the brass tacks, what's he asking for? Money? Weapons? Information? See how far his ambition goes and how far sense restrains him
-[X][Stunt]"Fame, power, wealth? What is it that you desire? I have it all in one piece."
-[X]Any deal includes empowering him with Inner Darkness Unchained.

I don't think that I am going to agree with any deal with him that doesn't include using Inner Darkness Unchained. Because quite frankly a gang lord is too small time to work with. He can work under us.
 
Goldfish said:
All the better reason to bring him under our benevolent wing sooner rather than later.
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Or, you know, we could stomp the criminal using a fallacious argument to appear more desirable to keep around than he really is?

*There will always be crimes as long as there are laws* is lacking so much nuance it hurts, and is the exact same kind of arguments the worst of the worst criminals use to stay in power (that and money, of course).

You want to stop crimes? Work on making a better society and crime enforcement, don't put the fox in charge of the hen instead.

[x] Refuse, you do not have the time to deal with him yet, but you have better offers of friendship than the crime boss of Chicago
 
[X] fictionfan
[X] Get down to the brass tacks, what's he asking for? Money? Weapons? Information? See how far his ambition goes and how far sense restrains him

Molly: "You'll take this powerup, and you'll like it. Because I said so."
 
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Nyarky said:
Or, you know, we could stomp the criminal using a fallacious argument to appear more desirable to keep around than he really is?

*There will always be crimes as long as there are laws* is lacking so much nuance it hurts, and is the exact same kind of arguments the worst of the worst criminals use to stay in power (that and money, of course).

You want to stop crimes? Work on making a better society and crime enforcement, don't put the fox in charge of the hen instead.
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Pretty much this and Yog is correct if we want to play a greater roll in managing this sort of thing in Chicago we could do so by starting with SI which exist to handle the supernatural bits of Chicago.

We don't need mafia bosses for anything. We have way too many resources at our disposal to need to work with criminals long term.

[x] Refuse, you do not have the time to deal with him yet, but you have better offers of friendship than the crime boss of Chicago
 
[X] Refuse, you do not have the time to deal with him yet, but you have better offers of friendship than the crime boss of Chicago

DragonParadox said:
"He made a reasonably compelling argument: Firstly that there will always be criminals as long as there are laws and there's money to be made in breaking them, secondly that criminals are always going to be a weak point for infiltration by supernatural bad actors 'psycopaths and useful idiots' is how he put it, which you have to admit..."

"Has a certain charm to it yeah," you allow.

"So the way he sees it someone has to keep order."
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This dumbass argument is always utter crap.

What he proposes are stronger, more organized, and more deeply entrenched criminals with better resources. Twelve different criminals operating on their own are collectively capable of less than a dozenth of what those twelve people properly working together are capable of. There are forces other than us that they would have to defend themselves from, the same forces that those individuals would face against, and their survival would depend on undermining and corrupting those forces.

Not to mention that it's stupid on its face to say that we just need rules applied to a group of people who as a group have the sole defining trait of breaking the rules applied to them. They're criminals, and we aren't talking about resistance against an unjust government or something. This is mob shit.
 
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Yog said:
The only reason to deal with Marcone is to prevent him from dealing with others. Which is an important reason - him picking up a coin is bad for us, since he has embedded and long established organization in the city.
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This is true but I don't like the sort of actions this mentality encourages. It's basically saying that we need to do a Necessary Evil to stop a greater evil but this is a fallacy. The Coin Marcone picks up is currently being used by someone else, he should know Molly is on the side of the Angels, or at least have a good guess, and lives in his city. If he becomes a Denarian or starts making deals with them, we can assume with how smart he's supposed to be that he can guess what that's going to mean for him.

Still the fact that in canon he was attacked by them then becomes one later doesn't say good things about his headspace. If we are concerned about him making deals with evil powers maybe we should lay out some things to him instead of helping him run his criminal empire.
 
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BoredMan said:
This is true but I don't like the sort of actions this mentality encourages. It's basically saying that we need to do a Necessary Evil to stop a greater evil but this is a fallacy. The Coin Marcone picks up is currently being used by someone else, he should know Molly is on the side of the Angels, or at least have a good guess, and lives in his city. If he becomes a Denarian or starts making deals with them, we can assume with how smart he's supposed to be that he can guess what that's going to mean for him.

Still the fact that in canon he was attacked by them then becomes one later doesn't say good things about his headspace. If we are concerned about him making deals with evil powers maybe we should lay out some things to him instead of helping him run his criminal empire.
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We could in principle make him a counter-offer? IDU or some other boost in exchange for going legit or at least dismantling certain parts of his operations / stopping certain kinds of crimes within a reasonable timeframe? He is an efficient manager and leader of people who is very familiar with and embedded in the local political landscape and society. It's just that he's a criminal and in general an evil person.
 
[X] Refuse, you do not have the time to deal with him yet, but you have better offers of friendship than the crime boss of Chicago

He is irrelevant. Why would we ever give him the time of day.

Like if we want crime to be sechre we drop a dozen amethyist hand operatives to control it for us.
 
Yog said:
We could in principle make him a counter-offer? IDU or some other boost in exchange for going legit or at least dismantling certain parts of his operations / stopping certain kinds of crimes within a reasonable timeframe? He is an efficient manager and leader of people who is very familiar with and embedded in the local political landscape and society. It's just that he's a criminal and in general an evil person.
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I mean, this still harms us politically with the Gov and by extension the Library. He has resources sure but nothing that we actually need. We've worked with evil people before but that was always during extenuating circumstances and there already is a unit in Chicago that deals with the supernatural so we have a pre-existing avenue to pursue.

In Marcone's interlude he compared Molly to Superman. Like he used that term specifically. Is Marcone really going to elevate himself to Supervillain status when he knows he lives in Metropolis? And we've been described as the "Slayer Queen" during the Alpha's interlude so we have a much bloodier reputation than Superman.

Earth-Destroyer said:
It very much is when Exalted are doing things. A few legendary speeches, and suddenly their mass numbers of criminals turning state. Across the entire nation, if not the world.
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Not how humans work. DP already told us that there is a limit to good rolls. As long as Free Will is a thing crime will always exist.
 
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Earth-Destroyer said:
It very much is when Exalted are doing things. A few legendary speeches, and suddenly their mass numbers of criminals turning state. Across the entire nation, if not the world.
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Yeah, it's worth bearing in mind that "agreeing to work with Molly" means "agreeing to regularly let a social-focused Exalt talk to you". Persuading Marcone to generally behave as a decent person who moves away from doing anything objectionable is actually in the scope of Molly's abilities. Free Will, yeah, Molly can't just change him, but she's very persuasive.

Main reason to consider taking the offer would be to do that. It could be less painful for everyone (including innocent civilians) to just reform Marcone.
 
BoredMan said:
I mean, this still harms us politically with the Gov and by extension the Library. He has resources sure but nothing that we actually need. We've worked with evil people before but that was always during extenuating circumstances and there already is a unit in Chicago that deals with the supernatural so we have a pre-existing avenue to pursue.

In Marcone's interlude he compared Molly to Superman. Like he used that term specifically. Is Marcone really going to elevate himself to Supervillain status when he knows he lives in Metropolis? And we've been described as the "Slayer Queen" during the Alpha's interlude so we have a much bloodier reputation than Superman.
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If we apply steady pressure and he sees the writing kn the wall? Absolutely, he'll become a supervising of sorts. He may try to get a coin, engage In soil trade with Yama Kings, go for some other path to empowerment. He did that in canon, and his resources and knowledge open up avenues of doing this that most people don't have.

I agree that we have no reason to help Marcone, hut I worry that, if left alone, Marcone will find ways to become a problem for us. Because Odin is clearly invested in him for some reason.

I am tempted to ask two things via the crown:
What is Marcone's Fate as known to Odin
What is Marcone's motivation

The argument about the government is both a strong one, and not. Being a criminal under mortal law is so commonplace in supernatural world so as to be inconsequential. All Jade Dog ghouls are criminals. Molly is, without a doubt, a criminal (well, no, because sovereign immunity, but if not, she would be). Harry, as a Warden commander, is a leader of a vigilante murder cult. Marcone is different because he is a mundane criminal first, and supernatural actor second. His crimes are not consequence of masquerade making it impossible for the law to handle his actions properly. They are just crimes. How big of a difference that'll be, politically, is a question. In Las Vegas Library / Feds had no issues with subverting criminal elements, but St. Giles society being almost a terrorist organization is a problem.

I think if Marcone was subverted and the criminal side of his organization swiftly and efficiently dismantled, while he maintained his functions as supernatural law enforcement, we wouldn't face much backlash. Well, maybe from Odin who I think won't appreciate us taking his champion (or whatever it is Marcone is to him at this point).

Suffice to say, I am conflicted about this vote, and it is making me think a lot.
 
Yog said:
If we apply steady pressure and he sees the writing kn the wall? Absolutely, he'll become a supervising of sorts. He may try to get a coin, engage In soil trade with Yama Kings, go for some other path to empowerment. He did that in canon, and his resources and knowledge open up avenues of doing this that most people don't have.
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I don't see it. In canon someone who he compared to Superman but with an even bloodier reputation did not exist in Chicago (Harry doesn't even remotely count) and in story she is against Denarians. In gaining that power he would put a target on his back to someone who he has no actual answer for. Too much risk too little gain. Not sure why we'd apply steady pressure on him instead of just dealing with him one way or the other. Would certainly save us time.

The Odin bit is good to bring up. Maybe we should use the Crown to ask what value he sees in him. Marcone is definitely a badass normal, well before he because a damn Denarian, and in canon there wasn't any other power really holding the reigns on Chicago (Dresden only puts out and causes fires while keeping certain people out due to his reputation) so it could just be that Odin saw that sort of potential in someone who lives in such a plot critical place which holds DemonReach among other things. In some ways Odin is very much a the ends justify the means type character and his power projection with mortals is limited as a god so it would just be easier for him to have someone as competent as Marcone in his pocket.

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Hmm.. So are those of you who are voting to go further with this actually going to put your money where your mouth is and insist on "reforming" Marcone when it comes time to vote for AP actions for April? Cause this isn't something that can be left on the back burner. It's one of those things that will get worse in the background if you don't keep up with it.
 
It occurs to me that this is a perfect opportunity to test our new shiny toy!

[X] Plan streetwise Hercules
-[X] Use Awakened Eye of the Dragon in Last Station to boost your streetwise knowledge
--[X] Invite Harry, your circlemates, and Jade Dogs so they can also benefit from this
-[X] Use the Crown on Marcone's casefile or a news article about him to learn his motivation
-[X] Using all your boosts design and make a counter-proposal to Marcone to the effect of:
--[X] You have no reason to support a criminal when you can instead help the government instead. If, however, he is aiming to move his organization in a legitimate direction, providing valuable help to society, inlcuding in the form of supernatural law enforcement that cannot be handled even by supernaturally aware elements of the government, you are happy to provide incentive, rewards, and help in doing so, both for him personally, up to and including personal immortality in the long term, and for his organization

Molly is big on redemption due to her personal history. She has taken in killers and monsters, and as long as they move in the right direction, she was and is happy to help them (see Jade Dogs). We just need to apply the same to Marcone. He is, objectively, no worse than the White Court guy we took in and are using as a seneschal. The only difference is that he wants to remain a criminal while working with us. We should make a counter proposal instead.

And this way it also slides neatly into teaching Harry and co AEoD later.
 
BoredMan said:
I don't see it. In canon someone who he compared to Superman but with an even bloodier reputation did not exist in Chicago (Harry doesn't even remotely count) and in story she is against Denarians. In gaining that power he would put a target on his back to someone who he has no actual answer for. Too much risk too little gain. Not sure why we'd apply steady pressure on him instead of just dealing with him one way or the other. Would certainly save us time.

The Odin bit is good to bring up. Maybe we should use the Crown to ask what value he sees in him. Marcone is definitely a badass normal, well before he because a damn Denarian, and in canon there wasn't any other power really holding the reigns on Chicago (Dresden only puts out and causes fires while keeping certain people out due to his reputation) so it could just be that Odin saw that sort of potential in someone who lives in such a plot critical place which holds DemonReach among other things. In some ways Odin is very much a the ends justify the means type character and his power projection with mortals is limited as a god so it would just be easier for him to have someone as competent as Marcone in his pocket.
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We are applying steadily increasing pressure on him by simply existing in Chicago. As long as Molly has an apartment in the city his attempts at getting recognized as a freeholding lord under the accords will be laughed at, because everyone, or at least Mab and Titania recognize that he exists only as long as we allow it. Jade Dogs are a gang, in a way, that is claiming Chicago Underground and is steadily expanding. Porter's whole "appear in a subway to take someone fleeing" trick he got from his new body has probably already busted some of Marcone's operations like extortion, or trafficking. Empowering SI, and getting them in contact with, and backing of the Library of Congress is putting pressure on Marcone.

Odin thing is probably important. One thing to remember is that Odin is ancient. Many modern morals would be foreign to him, such as issues with at least some form of slavery, weapon trafficking, summary judgement, etc. And by the standards of ancient kings? Marcone is not that bad, I think.
 
This plan isn't bad as it makes clear our intent isn't to support criminal activities when we have other options. @Yog this vote is well put enough that I think you should present something like it later on if 'brass tacks" ends up winning. Of course in that case we wouldn't have boosted our streetwise knowledge before talking to Marcone about this stuff so it's just an inferior vote all around.

[X] Plan streetwise Hercules
[X] Refuse, you do not have the time to deal with him yet, but you have better offers of friendship than the crime boss of Chicago
 
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