We absolutely do profit from t he status quo, both as Rhaenyra but even more so as House Targaryen. For all the internal divisions in the House we should not forget that factor either, that it isn't just Targaryen vs Targaryen, it is also Targaryen vs everyone else, the King versus the Lords, which is always, always a never ending political tug-of-war. For one thing, we are fully exempt from the Church's judgement. That is a privilege that we very much want to keep, and it is absolutely tied to our standing apart from the Andals. Second, nobody expects piety from a Targaryen, so that means we don't even really have to even only go through the motions if we don't feel like it.
I mean, our situation is primarily Targaryen vs Targaryen. Our enemies at home are worse and more dangerous than any we have in other houses. But also, in terms of the King versus the Lords - a natural ally in the power dynamic between kings and lords would be those beneath the lords. The alliance of high and low against the middle. In Westeros, it's those beneath the lords who tend to be more faithful, and the lords who tend to be less. We can dismiss them, but in the books it's Rhaenyra's failure to manage the opinion of the lower class that ultimately ends the dragons and forces her to flee the Dragonstone.
The fact that nobody expects piety from Targaryens is why I think being pious would be potentially powerful. Don't you think the church and faith would love to have a pious Targaryen? Would be some thrilled at the idea they'd be wary of alienating them, and willing to make some concessions? In the books, Baelor is perceived as more pious than the Faith and this lets him basically run roughshod over it. He picks whoever he likes as the next High Septon and the Faith eats it up.
The whole thing about blood superiority of certain lines - as you say, the Starks and Lannisters and everyone else manages just fine without being seen as culturally or racially distinct from their subjects, and they manage this for literally thousands of years. And they are above their own nobility. I'm pretty sure the Targs ideas about them being set apart from and above the rest of the nobility and this helping them rule is just them drinking their own kool-aid. Basically as soon as they lose dragons they're subject to the same political factors as any other noble house. And it doesn't take long for the wheels to come off.
Something every Targaryen king can do, but by the time of the novels the Faith is so thoroughly defanged that there is no point to it anymore. And that is a political plus. Ruling over the land without a competiting power base is a good thing. We have the church under our thumb - that is an enviable position of power we shouldn't just so give up! A hard fought for position, t oo! Maegor was a tyrant, yes, but his smashing of the organized Faith was a major boon to us as House Targaryens and Kings of Westeros. It took much blood to achieve that!
What we do not want is things like the Investiture Conflict or the thousand and one other conflicts between the Church and local state power that existed all throughout the middle ages. Basically, our kingship is in a better position than in historical Europe, and you just... want to throw it away, in a way. It is every King's dream to be able to just dictate to the Church.
The whole thing about blood superiority of certain lines - as you say, the Starks and Lannisters and everyone else manages just fine without being culturally or racially distinct from their subjects, and they manage this for literally thousands of years. And they are above their own nobility.
But there is a difference. The Starks may be the Lords Paramount of the North and may have ruled the North for literally thousands of years yadda yadda - but they are still just nobles above the Boltons and Manderlys and Umbers etc, and not truly a class of their own. It's just nobility at different hierarchical levels. Whereas with the Targaryens - well, Rhaenyra says in canon HotD that Targaryens are closer to gods than to other people. There is an attitude that Targaryens are not just the highest nobles but are indeed, as I have said, as separate and superior to nobles as the nobles in turn are to commoners. And having such a standing, such a mystique, not only being hierarchically superior, but our own superior category, that is absolutely an enviable position as well.
But what is more, it still is all bloodlines. Both Lannisters and their commoners may be Andals, but they are still very different bloodlines. In fact, since nobility intermarries across kingdoms, but doesn't marry with commoners, nobility will be "genetically" much closer to 'foreign' nobility than to their own people, so in that sense nobility is in fact distinct to commoners. Completely separate bloodlines. And the notion that some bloodlines are just inherently superior is still just commonly accepted social perception.
Given that, I absolutely do not see why this should be worse when one bloodline is Valyrian/foreign. It still is exactly the same as t he nobility's bloodline suprematism. Exact same deal.
I'm pretty sure the Targs ideas about them being set apart from and above the rest of the nobility and this helping them rule is just them drinking their own kool-aid. Basically as soon as they lose dragons they're subject to the same political factors as any other noble house. And it doesn't take long for the wheels to come off.
I mean sure - legitimacy cannot paper over lakc of substantial power. But legitimacy can help in you not having to wield that power constantly. I do think you are absolutely underestimating the power of legitimacy, and I have already named examples of persisting loyalism and idealism in ASOIAF. As Varys said - "Power lies where people believe it to lie". And that is no myth - power genuinely lies where people believe it to lie.
Whereas with the Targaryens - well, Rhaenyra says in canon HotD that Targaryens are closer to gods than to other people. There is an attitude that Targaryens are not just the highest nobles but are indeed, as I have said, as separate and superior to nobles as the nobles in turn are to commoners. And having such a standing, such a mystique, not only being hierarchically superior, but our own superior category, that is absolutely an enviable position as well.
I think part of the core disagreement here is whether the whole "Targaryens are closer to gods than to other people" is something everyone believes (and a core part of their legitimacy), or if it's just something Targaryens go around saying to other Targaryens and everyone kind of puts up with it because after all they have dragons and are at least ordinary royalty besides.
I think there's a fanon perception that Targaryens have this special mystique and are their own superior category. But the characters in canon we see thinking this way are pretty much all Targaryens. Most of this is stuff Viserys (Daenerys' brother) says and the whole point of Viserys is he's wrong.
Your argument boils down to the idea that presenting the illusion of being in a special category is politically useful. But if we think we're a special category and no one else does, then the only person we're deluding is ourselves. I don't think we're the only ones fooled, but I do think the Targaryens fooled themselves into believing they were special to a much greater extent than they did everyone else.
In canon even after a bruising and horrifying civil war it still took, what, a century and a half for the end of the Targaryans, and even to the last they had plenty of supporters.
It kinda just... doesn't matter? We will live, and die, in the Springtime or at worst Late Summer of the Targaryans, barring us REALLY fucking things up.
That's a point, but also in book canon at least the dragons were killed by a mob of disgruntled faithful upset at the whole civil war thing, and we were forced to flee to dragonstone by that same uprising, where we died.
I think part of the core disagreement here is whether the whole "Targaryens are closer to gods than to other people" is something everyone believes (and a core part of their legitimacy), or if it's just something Targaryens go around saying to other Targaryens and everyone kind of puts up with it because after all they have dragons and are at least ordinary royalty besides.
I think there's a fanon perception that Targaryens have this special mystique and are their own superior category. But the characters in canon we see thinking this way are pretty much all Targaryens. Most of this is stuff Viserys (Daenerys' brother) says and the whole point of Viserys is he's wrong.
Your argument boils down to the idea that presenting the illusion of being in a special category is politically useful. But if we think we're a special category and no one else does, then the only person we're deluding is ourselves. I don't think we're the only ones fooled, but I do think the Targaryens fooled themselves into believing they were special to a much greater extent than they did everyone else.
Well, for what it's worth, I think "closer to the gods than to men", that extent, absolutely is kool-aid.
However, we kinda know that holding the Targaryens to be special has to be at least somewhat widespread, because Targaryen exceptionalism is a thing. Also, for all you condemn Targaryen incest, marital eligibility is a major historic marker defining classes - something like nobles marrying rich commoner heiresses was really more of a British exception and would not have been possible on the mainland, where the classes where indeed defined pretty much by who could marry whom in a standesgemäße (according to estate) marriage. So that absolutely sets us apart as well. The marriage to Johanna was the first time a Targaryen king married someone entirely without Targaryen/Velaryon blood, whereas before that absolutely was a requirement, which did make us our own class by that marker, as there was (nearly) no intermarriage with nobility.
But still, that is why I spoke about "mystique" - as something intangible, rather than well defined classes. But it still is a status and reputation and standing we have, and I think is worth protetcing. And I absolutely do think it is political necessity to keep the Faith defanged. There is a reason everyone gossiped about how stupid Cersei is when she re-empowered the faith. You may call it her comeuppance, but it was a stupid move, and we shouldn't do stupid moves. And I also do think that becoming pious simply means the Faith having a lever on us.
That's a point, but also in book canon at least the dragons were killed by a mob of disgruntled faithful upset at the whole civil war thing, and we were forced to flee to dragonstone by that same mob, where we died.
Though in practical terms, that is just the population of the capital. Same as how during the French revolution, the Parisian mob drove matters for large lengths of time, but the common folk outside of Paris didn't matter at all and maybe even were directly suppressed by the Paris-led revolution. I.e., you cannot generalize from a capital uprising to the smallfolk in general, which in Westeros as well will be over 90% rural - more even, given the oft-discussed lack of smaller cities in the setting.
Basically, we need to keep Flea Bottom pacified, but some hamlets in the Riverlands, that is another matter.
I agree that the Targaryens aren't the only ones drinking the kool-aid. But IMO it's a question of whether we benefit more from the illusion of superiority that others have or suffer more from the self-delusion. Do the Targaryen's think they're more special, or does everyone else? And I think at least the "closer to gods then men" thing indicates that we are on the wrong end of it.
Even aside from moral objections to incest, it's just bad politics. It prevents us from forming useful and necessary alliances with Lords Paramount and other powerful nobles, and that just isn't worth trying to maintain a categorical separation. And the repeated intermarriages between Targaryen and Velayron have arguably been detrimental in the long run - they've essentially elevated the Velayrons to our super special category, complete with their own dragons. The bit about no Targ king marrying a non Targaryen/Velayron isn't true, btw - Maegor is an exception, but I'm willing to grant that he might be the exception that proves the rule. I definitely agree that marriage distinction is a big part of maintaining a separate class and category. Part of why I don't think that's the right move is that the incest isn't worth it. Even if we marry Laenor, it's not politically wise to marry our kids to their cousins and keep everything in the Targaryen-Velayron house.
Going to mystique: This vote has closed, so it's in the past, but as an example: which is more mysterious and mystical? Killing someone, and going and talking with the rest of the nobility about how it feels, or disappearing into a Sept without speaking a word? Religion has a mysticism of it's own. I'm not against presenting ourself as special - we will need to. But I think that's something that being pious could help with rather than hinder. I'd point to the example of Louis IX. Granted, things would be trickier for us because unlike Louis IX we're not a traditional ruler. But on the other hand, we do have the benefit that the entirety of the Fot7 is within our borders. We are clearly unusually strong and talented. Why not present ourselves as blessed by the gods?
I'm not advocating for restoring the Faith Militant or anything. I'm not even advocating for any concrete change to status quo. But as you've said, there's a power dynamic to watch between us and the lords as well as between us and our family members. Introducing (or reintroducing) other political forces to compete with the lords would be beneficial from that perspective. Becoming more devout would give the faith a lever over us, sure. But I think it's one that goes both ways. As you've mentioned, the church in ASOIAF is basically in the dirt. If we're they're friend, they cannot afford to alienate us. Cersei was foolish because she traded away so much that they were able to flip the negotiating table.
Discounting the smallfolk in the Riverlands specifically is a bit of a bad example because that was the core of the Sparrows. That's where they started.
Fundamentally, you're not going to be convincing because this is ASOIAF. There are settings--though precious few--with interesting religious worldbuilding that treat earnestly the problems of faith and consider as real, organic, and fascinating the religious politics and differences of their world.
And then there's whatever the fuck the Faith of the Seven is (an afterthought).
"Relax, girl, you are among friends," Jeyne assured her as she pointedly put an arm around Jessamyn's waist, causing the other woman to giggle in response.
Ahh, so Jeyne did have a lady of her own. And now that you thought about it the two did seem rather close at the wedding.
@Teen Spirit, Does Jeyne's relationship with Jessamyn mean that Jeyne would have turned us down at the Queen's Wedding or would it have led to potential threesomes?
@Teen Spirit, Does Jeyne's relationship with Jessamyn mean that Jeyne would have turned us down at the Queen's Wedding or would it have led to potential threesomes?
"I think I should talk to others. People who know what I'm experiencing right now," you said after some consideration. Ser Raylon nodded solemnly.
"Lady Jeyne, if you would be so kind, could you lead me to some of your loyal knights?" he requested of your cousin. "If there are any older knights here, that would be ideal."
"I know a number were gathered here for the trial and I doubt many have left," Jeyne replied thoughtfully. "I could easily arrange to have them speak with Rhaenyra in the Morning Hall."
"I need to speak with them first, my lady," Raylon said with practiced politeness. "I would be neglecting my duties if I allowed so many trained warriors so close to my charge without at least some vetting."
Jeyne arched an eyebrow in annoyance. "Are you-" she froze, remembering she was speaking to one of the Kingsguard. "Of course, let me escort you to them, Ser."
The two left, leaving you and Alicent alone, her hands atop yours.
"Thank you," you said, your voice numb as you were barely able to bring yourself to look at her. "I am very glad to have you here right now."
You were scared. You couldn't quite put it to words yet, but you were scared. How would the realm react to your actions? How would the court? Pr your father? You had long ago force him to accept that you would wield the blade and not merely look on as others fought in your name. But that had so far amounted to hours spent in the training yard and practice duels. Until now. Now, a man was dead at your hands. What would they say about that? That you had taken 'playing' at knighthood too far?
Alicent was your one assurance things might fine. Raylon was your sworn shield and it was Jeyne's claim and honor you had been defending. Their support came easily. That Alicent supported you, without any hesitation, gave you a great measure of comfort when you needed it so dearly. If she understood, others would too.
The two of you stayed there, saying almost nothing more, until Gwayne knocked at the door, offering to escort you to the Morning Hall.
Your eyes focused on the floor in front of you as the two of you made your way through the Eyrie. You weren't ready to see what strangers thought of you now.
"I don't know how highly you hold my opinion, Princess," Gwayne said calmly as the two of you walked, "but I must say I think your behavior right now speaks well of your character."
The confusion his words gave you lifted you out of the borderline fugue you had found yourself slipping into.
"What do you mean?" you questioned. All you were doing was staring at your feet, what was there to approve in that?
"Ser Arnold was an oath-breaking cur," Gwayne almost spat the words. "I know many men who would have killed him without one moment of regret. Most would forget he was even a man, but you haven't. And that is to be commended."
"I've never killed anyone before," you said. "I knew eventually the odds were that I may have to, but I never thought..." you trailed off, the remaining words dying in your throat as the image of Ser Arnold's lifeless head threatened to burn itself into your mind.
"And it is only because of Ser Arnold you had to experience that so soon," Gwayne's words were sympathetic but the venom towards Arnold was still unmistakable. "A man who has broken so many oaths and sullied his knighthood so completely should know what the gods have in store for him when he leaves his fate in their hands."
Your stared at the man curiously. You were not used to seeing such a pretty boyish face so twisted with disgust. "Did you know Ser Arnold? Your disdain seems rather personal in nature."
"No, I had not even seen this man until today," Alicent's brother admitted, "but what I saw did not surprise me. When this man launched his second rebellion, he violated every oath he had swore to Lady Jeyne. When he walked into the hall, he did not seek any sort of redemption for this, but instead spat on the oaths he swore to his king and as a knight!"
"Ser Arnold did seem all too eager to insult everyone in front of him," you remarked.
You found yourself wondering what his plan was. Even if you had somehow held yourself and sent another against him and he won, he had insulted you and disrespected your father's authority by denying that you had right to act as his proxy. Even the most kindhearted king could not and would not tolerate such a rejection of his authority.
"What would it say if we allowed a man like that to rule the Vale?" Gwayne asked rhetorically. "If we allowed anyone to break their oaths and claim any throne they saw fit?"
"There is a reason your father made everyone swear an oath to acknowledge you as heir. Why I entrusted you with my sister's protection," he went on. "Oaths are what keeps everything together. Without them, we would be little better than wildlings or animals."
"You see quite passionate about this," you observed.
"It's more that I realized why my father finds-" Gwayne hesitated, a look of worry suddenly appearing across his face. "... finds men like this so upsetting."
You knew he was referring to Daemon. It didn't take a genius to realize that. You could see the similarities between Arnold and your uncle, and how they seemed to think the rules simply did not apply to them. Though Arnold had proven far more of a fool than your uncle ever had.
"Yes," you nodded. "Such men have proven to be quite the frustration."
Would that mean you would have to kill your uncle in time? The thought felt like ice growing inside your chest. That was far worse than simple murder. It would be kinslaying. Few crimes were more vile than that. Whatever you thought of Daemon, you did not wish to see him dead by your hands.
The two of you arrived at the Morning Hall. Usually this was where Jeyne and her court broke their fast after waking and remained largely empty for the rest of the day, but now there was a dozen men sitting around it's various tables. Some looking barely older than you, while others were men of grey hair and scarred skin. Ser Raylon was by the door, an expectant look on his face.
"Good Sers," he turned towards the knights, "my young ward has just killed her first man, the traitor Arnold Arryn. I was hoping we could provide her some sage advice for this momentous occasion."
First Man.
You flinched as though Raylon's words had physically struck you. Thankfully, no one noticed. You weren't a fool. The path you had chosen had always been destined to be filled with violence and death. Both your father and Ser Westerling had made that very clear as well when you demanded to be given proper training. It was not that you had not expected this, nor that you did not prepare for it.
So why did the smell of blood on your hands make you want to wretch?
To your surprise, the knights began to approach you. Ser Raylon kept a watchful eye, but said nothing as they did. The first was an older man with short grey hair that was combed backwards and with a small beard on his chin that still had some hint of his original brown hair.
"Princess, I am Ser Marwyn Hunter and I must say I am beyond honored to speak with you," the Hunter knight said as he got to one knee. "Your dragon ensured my sons would not have to die fighting the traitor and his foolish war. Your sword ensured my grandsons will never worry he or his line may try for the third time. I owe you a debt I can never repay."
"I..I," you stuttered, left flat footed by the praise. "I thank you, Ser."
After the reactions Arnold had gotten from the crowd, you had thought much of the room against you, and even among those who did not support him, you weren't expecting praise.
"Aye," a younger knight spoke up. "I don't fault Lady Jeyne for keeping that bastard hostage, but I'll sleep better at night knowing all I have to worry about is the hill tribes and not some fool with delusions of lordship."
"And you should be proud, Princess," Ser Marwyn said. "For a first kill, that was as clean as they come, the traitor probably never even realized he was dead."
"What was your first kill like?" The question came from your lips before the thought had even formed in your head.
You were embarrassed by your own shame over Arnold's death, the tales always made it seem so easy and yet you had all frozen after his death.
"Messy," the Hunter Knight said, the smile leaving his face- "I was a young squire on my way to attend my cousin's wedding when we were attacked by Stone Crows. Some giant of a man charged at me. Ran him through with a spear I found lying nearby."
He went quiet for a moment, starring at something only he could see. "They never tell you how they all shit themselves as they die. Pardon me princess. That slipped out," he added hastily.
"It's no trouble," you assured him.
"The smell rarely makes it into the stories," Gwayne agreed. "They always make things sound so clean and simple, they rarely are."
You looked at the Hightower knight, waiting for him to go on.
"Ah yes, I suppose I should share my own," Gwayne said. "Brigands on the road to your father's tourney. I caught one of them with an arrow straight to their lungs. I thought it would be over in moments, but the man kept trying to get up. I watched him pull himself to his knees as blood poured from his lips, only to collapse back to the ground and try all over again. Didn't sleep for a three nights after that, every time I closed my eyes I could hear the man's gurgling."
You were horrified to know that you had gotten off easy compared to even Gwayne, and yet you felt strangely comforted as well. He seemed rather confident and sure himself. To know his first kill gave him troubles, you realized you weren't alone on this.
Steffon Redfort, Jessamyn's brother, a broad shouldered giant of a younger man with dark red hair, spoke of how his first fight with the mountain clan's ended with him doing something similar to what happened to Ser Arnold, only his sword got stuck. Steffon's face had this boyish innocence to it, but even he seemed to fill with dread as he spoke of his horrific experience.
You heard many tales while you talked. Some of them were almost more horrific through words alone then what you had experienced yourself. None were pleasant to hear. These men had done and suffered horrific things. Though it brought you a measure of comfort to know you weren't alone.
The men would not admit weakness. None confessed to crying or anything like that after their first kills, but you could tell there was pain. Moments of hesitation as they spoke. Far off looks. A flash of anguish across their face. These were brave men who had likely killed hundreds in their lives, but they had pain in their hearts. The same pain you now felt.
You weren't alone and you weren't weak. Your doubt, your regrets, your fears; they were all things any aspiring knight experienced when they took someone's life.
Which only left you with one question.
"So, why do you keep doing it?" you asked. "What kept you going after your first kill?"
It was Ser Redfort who spoke first.
"Honor, your grace," Steffon replied. "If I gave up I would be dishonoring my family and the oaths I swore."
'Did it really all boil down to oaths?' you found yourself wondering.
"I mean no offense to those hailing from the quieter realms, but being a knight of the Vale isn't the same as it is in the other kingdoms," Ser Marwyn declared boldly. "A knight in the Westerlands is expected to protect his liege and fight in tourneys, that's all well and good. But here, a knighthood means the smallfolk look to us when the mountain clans attack, regardless of any oaths we may or may not have sworn to them."
You nodded in understanding. The Vale, along with the North, were one of the few places in the Seven Kingdoms that experienced violence regularly besides the occasional bandit or Dornish raid. Knights had more to do than just fight in tourneys here.
"It's why Ser Arnold had to die," Ser Marywn added.
"Because he broke his oaths?" you asked.
"Because he dishonored the very idea of knighthood!" Marywn spat "He spoke to his liege and a princess like he was some drunken sailor. He spat on his oaths and even the gods themselves without regret or even hesitation. He was a thug who had regretfully been anointed. If he had won, the smallfolk would come to see us all as little more than pretentious brigands in steel, and what then? What happens then? Nothing good, that's for sure."
"'High as honor.' That's the Arryn house words," Ser Redfort stated. "How could a man who's honor was kissing the worms be fit to lead such a family? He would lead House Arryn to ruin and the Vale with it."
Several knight muttered in agreement.
You knew not every knight held to their honor like Marywn and Steffon did. Your uncle was a knight after all, but you saw the sense in their words. People believed in stories about the knights and people trusted them because of those stories. If all acted like Arnold had, who would they trust to protect them?
You talked with the knights a while longer before you made your goodbyes and left for your quarters along with your sworn shield. You weren't comfortable, doubts still ate you when you had a moment to think, but you no longer felt like you were drowning at least.
"You never mentioned you first kill," you observed as you and Raylon walked through the Eyrie.
"It was nothing I thought would help," Ser Tarly said quietly. "It was an accident in a squire's tourney. Fool charged at me like I was a Dornish raider come to kill his family, wildly flailing his sword. Before I realized what was happening, my morning star had crumbled the back of his helmet. He did not rise again."
"Ooh," you muttered. "That's regrettable."
"Yes," he nodded. "It was."
"Are you doing better, princess?" Ser Raylon shifted topics.
"I'm beginning to, at least," you confessed. At the very least you now knew what you were going through wasn't anything out of the ordinary. Every knight had gone through this.
"Good," he nodded, his expression remaining serious. "Because I must be blunt, there will be more men like Arnold Arryn. Men who will never see the warrior you become and insist on treating you like some common lady, undeserving of their respect. And not all will be as foolish as he was. You must harden your heart to them."
"What do you mean?" you asked as you starred at him with uncertainty.
"Don't weep for the stupid, you'll be crying all day," Ser Raylon quoted. "My father told me that once. You are the lawful heir, but there will always be some who are too stupid to accept that. If you hesitate or show weakness, others will think their claims have merit. The next Arnold you kill? Do not let your regrets burden you so, because they will exploit that."
"Are you saying I shouldn't have regrets about killing Ser Arnold?" your sworn shield's bluntness caught you by surprise.
"Regret that he gave you no other choice," he declared. "His death was his fault alone. Do not let his folly burden you."
You didn't know what else to say. You knew he was right on some level, that you would also have people who opposed you because you were your father's daughter and not his son. And you knew people would say any tears or hints of weakness were a sign that you were a weak-willed woman, unfit to rule. But was it so wise to treat even your enemies with such a ruthless and cold heart?
That night as you laid in bed, your forced Ser Arnold from your thoughts, refusing to allow yourself to lose sleep over his death. Instead your mind began to wander to the conversations you had afterwards. Gwayne's focus on the importance of oaths, the Knights of the Vale and their talk of honor, and Ser Raylon urging you to steel your heart against your enemies. All seemed good advice, but one would end up staying with you as you went to sleep.
-7 Stress
Relationship with Ser Raylon Tarly Improved
Relationship with Ser Gwayne Hightower Improved New Status: Hesistant Ally
Who's Words Stick With You the Most?
[] Gwayne's
Before Lords and Kings, there were Oaths. Without oaths, the only way to enforce any order would be through the constant clash of steel and spilling of blood. Words were more than just wind. They are your bond and sacred vow. If you give someone your word, people need to believe you will honor it to the best of your ability. If they can't believe you will keep your word, what right do you have to lead anyone?
[] The Vale Knights'
Without honor, a knight is little more than a bandit in armor. A King without honor is a tyrant wearing a crown. Without honor, the smallfolk and your bannermen alike have little reason to trust you. And without trust, how could anyone expect to rule?
[] Your Sworn Shield's
You are a warrior. To attain and hold your throne one day you must act as a warrior or your enemies will walk all over you. Arnold was the first of many, and you doubt they would all be so foolish. You need a strong heart for what was to come.
After a night of less than restful sleep, the trials resumed. The various rebel lords where gathered before you and Lady Jeyne. Ser Arnold's execution had sapped the confidence from all of them and even those you saw agreeing with Ser Arnold were not holding themselves so proudly today. Some looked on the verge of throwing themselves at your mercy and the court itself was far quieter than it had been yesterday. A number of eyes were starring at you since the moment you walked in.
You were more yourself then you were yesterday. Even a restless night helped begin to clear your head, though you still found yourself starring at the spot where Ser Arnold's head had landed. The blood was already gone, but the memory would remain.
"My court," Lady Jeyne declared in authoritative voice. "The Gods have rendered their judgement on my traitorous kin, but many of his fellow conspirators yet remain. I have called you back here today to witness their trial."
You had studied all of them before, spoken to their friends, rivals, and even family. Ser Jon Coldwater had rallied banners to Ser Arnold's cause. Ser Gellan Borrell of Sweetsister had ferried sellswords from Essos to the Vale. Errick Templeton had taken hostage the families of several of Jeyne's sworn knights in an effort to force them to Arnold's side.
"The accused will receive a fair trial, for it will not be me to pass judgement," your cousin repeated her words from yesterday. "Once more, on behalf of King Viserys Targaryen, his daughter and heiress Rhaenyra Targaryen shall pass judgement in the Iron Throne's name, as her father has given her leave and authority to do as such. Her voice holds the weight of the king's, you would all do well to remember that."
The frustration in her voice was subtle, but clear to you. Her cousin had made a mockery of the court before and denied your authority. It seemed Jeyne wanted to make very sure that father did not get the impression that anyone in her court agreed with this or that she would tolerate such outbursts.
You looked at the gathered men. Even the defiant among them lacked the courage or stupidity to pull what Arnold had pulled. There would be no trials by combat today.
Even before any of them spoke, you knew they were all guilty. They were all simply too involved in Arnold's conspiracy for their to be any doubt, any questions you asked now just for the benefit of the onlookers. All of them men before you were guilty of treason against their rightful liege lord. You could sentence all of them to be thrown out the moon door and you knew your father and the Small Council would consider it just. After Arnold's behavior yesterday, you very much doubted your cousin cared what you did to these men either or that anyone would dare to object.
Regardless of how you ruled, you knew this would be the end of Arnold's ambitions and your involvement in Vale affairs for the time being. Arnold was dead, his conspirators were now awaiting your judgement, and Arnold's son, Eldric, was a child. And just this morning Rhea Royce had promised she would speak to her father in Gulltown and arrange for Eldric to either be brought to Jeyne or taken to one of her loyal vassals. Your earlier actions had ensured Arnold did not get the chance to engulf the Vale in a civil war, and your actions yesterday ensured he would never be able to try again. If nothing else, you were sure much of the Vale would be grateful to you for the lives you saved.
The only person's judgement you would have to face for what you did next was your own. You could simply throw them all out the Moon Door, but you suspected many would throw themselves at a chance to take the Black if given the chance. You could force all of them to the wall if you wanted to, after all you had the King's authority here. Or you could just leave them all to mercy of Lady Jeyne and her sky cells.
What is Your Judgement?
[] Throw the conspirators out the Moon Door.
[] Allow those who repent to be sent to the Wall, execute the rest.
[] Send all of them to the Wall
[] Have the traitors remain in the Sky Cells as Lady Jeyne's hostages
[] Write-in (Subject to QM Approval) QM's Note: Just to be clear, I'm not ignoring the fact that the Knights of the Vale basically want to genocide the mountain clans but, once again, we are dealing with highly biased people expressing their highly biased views on various subjects. Not important to this update but the concern hit me as I was writing so I just wanted to make sure everyone remembered that a character's word is not word of god.
He's right. Not everyone who will oppose us will make it so easy and clean as Arnold did. We are facing a long uphill battle against entrenched misogyny and likely our own kin, be it half-siblings or uncles. We will have to be ready for the hardships ahead.
[X] Allow those who repent to be sent to the Wall, execute the rest.
The claim is dead as a door nail with the trial by combat passing divine judgement that Arnold had no rights to the Eyrie and the Vale. Keeping them as hostages is thus more likely to cause resentment in the long term than it fixes anything. The pick between Wall and Moon Door is the most appropriate sentence for the treason they committed.
Personally really torn between this and Raylons, I think Raylons is smarter but I want the singers to LOVE Rhaeyra and being the Knight of Knights and Honorablewill help with that
[X] Allow those who repent to be sent to the Wall, execute the rest.
Shows us as willing to show mercy but enforces rules, i dont really see any reason not to
"Because he dishonored the very idea of knighthood!" Marywn spat "He spoke to his liege and a princess like he was some drunken sailor. He spat on his oaths and even the gods themselves without regret or even hesitation. He was a thug who had regretfully been anointed. If he had won, the smallfolk would come to see us all as little more than pretentious brigands in steel, and what then? What happens then? Nothing good, that's for sure."
Regarding advice, both Gwayne's and the Vale Knights' work. But it would clash horribly with our previous idealism if we now chose a might makes right attitude, and to be honest, I wouldn't like that, either. Among the two others, I guess Gwayne's is more pragmatical, because in a feudal society, the entire governmental structure is literally based on oaths.
As for the judgement, we have proven our toughness. Nobody will call us weak now for a merciful judgement - but it is good t o show that we are able to show mercy as well. At the same time, we must also show that repentance is good and gets you ahead, so we can't use the same sentence on everyone. Thus:
[X] Gwayne's [X] Allow those who repent to be sent to the Wall, execute the rest.
