Remove ads

Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Reader mode
Yog said:
I don't like hypocrisy. We just used an excellency to convince him of something.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I think there is an important difference between openly saying what you want and mean from the start, and just making as good a case for it as possible. Supernatural charisma or no, that's just convincing.

Vs. preplanning the whole flow of the conversation from the start and using other topics to prepare the emotional stage for what you actually want to talk about. That's hiding your agenda, that's manipulation.
 
[X] It was the right thing to do, Harry wants to see his daughter and he wants her to be safe, he was just getting in his own way
 
[X] It's less about it being morally wrong, it's about how this approach to communication with somebody close to you will not lead to a good relationship. Tiffany is being as stupidly self-sacrificial as Harry, by being willing to be caught and seen as a manipulator by Dresden, as long as it's for his sake.
 
[X] It's less about it being morally wrong, it's about how this approach to communication with somebody close to you will not lead to a good relationship. Tiffany is being as stupidly self-sacrificial as Harry, by being willing to be caught and seen as a manipulator by Dresden, as long as it's for his sake.
 
[x] It was the right thing to do, Harry wants to see his daughter and he wants her to be safe, he was just getting in his own way

this was basically the manipulation equivalent of grabbing someone by the shoulders and telling them not to be a dumb ass? Like… friends do this when their friends are being stupid all the time
 
[X] It was the right thing to do, Harry wants to see his daughter and he wants her to be safe, he was just getting in his own way

I'm honestly not sure I would even seriously classify this as something that serious. We just did it. No, I don't think it's worth condemning. Although Harry needs help with his self-image issues.
 
Last edited:
[X] It was the right thing to do, Harry wants to see his daughter and he wants her to be safe, he was just getting in his own way

[X] It's less about it being morally wrong, it's about how this approach to communication with somebody close to you will not lead to a good relationship. Tiffany is being as stupidly self-sacrificial as Harry, by being willing to be caught and seen as a manipulator by Dresden, as long as it's for his sake.
 
[X] It's less about it being morally wrong, it's about how this approach to communication with somebody close to you will not lead to a good relationship. Tiffany is being as stupidly self-sacrificial as Harry, by being willing to be caught and seen as a manipulator by Dresden, as long as it's for his sake.
 
Iron Roby said:
I think there is an important difference between openly saying what you want and mean from the start, and just making as good a case for it as possible. Supernatural charisma or no, that's just convincing.

Vs. preplanning the whole flow of the conversation from the start and using other topics to prepare the emotional stage for what you actually want to talk about. That's hiding your agenda, that's manipulation.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Did she though?

She knew Dresden was upset by the situation and confirmed the details with her social powers. Not that she needed them much since she's good at this stuff in a mundane way. Then she called him on his real motivation and proposed an alternative to get him what he really wanted.

She was being strategic, but didn't lie or misrepresent anything about what was happening. The only information that was hidden from Harry was that she used her social lore to enhance her ability to read him.

It's still manipulative, but the line the distinction I'm drawing here is between seeking clarity and causing confusion. She didn't twist his emotions around to muddle his thinking, she helped him directly face his feelings by saying them aloud.

Her approach wouldn't have worked if what she was saying wasn't true. I think that matters when evaluating what she did.
 
I'm sorry, but Molly would be a terrible hypocrite if she said that. She just used Excellency. Not for perception, but for persuasion. It's like wearing lead gloves to a boxing match. We're cheaters here. What Tiffany did is nothing in comparison.
 
I'm glad that the vote to help our depressed? friend won.

Ivar said:
I'm honestly not sure I would even seriously classify this as something that serious. We just did it. No, I don't think it's worth condemning. Although Harry needs help with his self-image issues.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Thank you. This is something friends do for each other. Help them when they are in need of it.

[X] It was the right thing to do, Harry wants to see his daughter and he wants her to be safe, he was just getting in his own way
 
[X] It was the right thing to do, Harry wants to see his daughter and he wants her to be safe, he was just getting in his own way

All communication is manipulation, without exception and regardless of intent, and manipulation does not truly mean deceit. We paint the picture of our world for others to see, rather than their own solipsist perception of it, and they make of it what they will. It is wrong to paint an incorrect picture of the world, that way lies propaganda and social gaslighting, or to utterly crush their worldview without good cause... but it is not wrong to give them a true picture from a different angle.

Harry should simply have open eyes in regard to that. That there is this sort of interplay every time he speaks to another intelligent being or, often, with any society or organized body. He should build his own vision of the world strong enough, well-supported and consistent enough, to act as a breakwater against other visions.

Not to manipulate is a sketchy line in the sand that leads to decision paralysis.
 
[X] It was wrong of her to manipulate him, even with good intentions

[X] It's less about it being morally wrong, it's about how this approach to communication with somebody close to you will not lead to a good relationship. Tiffany is being as stupidly self-sacrificial as Harry, by being willing to be caught and seen as a manipulator by Dresden, as long as it's for his sake.
 
[X] It's less about it being morally wrong, it's about how this approach to communication with somebody close to you will not lead to a good relationship. Tiffany is being as stupidly self-sacrificial as Harry, by being willing to be caught and seen as a manipulator by Dresden, as long as it's for his sake.
 
For people voting on the write in, what exactly should she have been more up front about? She was pretty direct about everything other than how she was reading him and the fact that she had this discussion while Molly was around as an alternative.

However, the topic of this conversation was Harry's future and specific assistance he wanted from her. If not now then when would it be appropriate to bring up the motives informing his actions and alternatives to his current approach?

If this was wrong what does a correct conversation look like?

Just because she rolled the manipulation stat doesn't mean what she was doing was automatically morally dubious. It's basically the social version of dexterity as far as I understand the system.
 
[x] It was the right thing to do, Harry wants to see his daughter and he wants her to be safe, he was just getting in his own way
 
BronzeTongue said:
If this was wrong what does a correct conversation look like?

Just because she rolled the manipulation stat doesn't mean what she was doing was automatically morally dubious. It's basically the social version of dexterity as far as I understand the system.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It's debatable and wouldn't be much of an issue if they weren't in an intimate relationship.

The main problem from my point of view is that Harry was having a moment of weakness where he was indeed contemplating a bad decision, and rather than just make the argument on the decision he'd suggested, Tiffany used it to pressure him to reveal his daughter to Molly and get Molly's help with locating her. That's probably a good plan, and something he definitely might have overcomplicated and agonized over on his own, but she pretty well pushed the decision on him rather than giving him any time to contemplate alternatives.

Again, that's not a big problem for just friends or allies, but if you have a partner who more or less makes decisions for you like that using rather cheap manipulation and emotional vulnerability... It does not end well when said manipulation fails or gets too obvious. Partners are supposed to be honest with each other and act as partners, not have one running the show because the other can't be trusted to make their own decisions.

If Molly had not been present it would not have been as much of an issue in my mind. And it's not the end of the world, but it signals that Tiffany isn't really prioritizing her relationship with Harry, instead just favoring helping him even it ruins things between them.
 
Last edited:
Ivar said:
I'm sorry, but Molly would be a terrible hypocrite if she said that. She just used Excellency. Not for perception, but for persuasion. It's like wearing lead gloves to a boxing match. We're cheaters here. What Tiffany did is nothing in comparison.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Modus_Tollens said:
All communication is manipulation, without exception and regardless of intent, and manipulation does not truly mean deceit. We paint the picture of our world for others to see, rather than their own solipsist perception of it, and they make of it what they will. It is wrong to paint an incorrect picture of the world, that way lies propaganda and social gaslighting, or to utterly crush their worldview without good cause... but it is not wrong to give them a true picture from a different angle.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Modus_Tollens said:
Not to manipulate is a sketchy line in the sand that leads to decision paralysis.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
BronzeTongue said:
For people voting on the write in, what exactly should she have been more up front about? She was pretty direct about everything other than how she was reading him and the fact that she had this discussion while Molly was around as an alternative.

However, the topic of this conversation was Harry's future and specific assistance he wanted from her. If not now then when would it be appropriate to bring up the motives informing his actions and alternatives to his current approach?

If this was wrong what does a correct conversation look like?

Just because she rolled the manipulation stat doesn't mean what she was doing was automatically morally dubious. It's basically the social version of dexterity as far as I understand the system.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yes exactly. The write in is basically saying that Tiffany shouldn't use the tools she has on hand to help her boyfriend out when he's in need of it. If I had the ability to read any of my friends with supernatural clarity and I see that they're going through something and need to take to someone but are supernaturally stubborn themselves about reaching out when they need it I'm going to use that ability to give them help.

It's just like @boo600 said. Harry didn't really learn to start taking care of himself till Ghost Story.

drake_azathoth said:
That's probably a good plan, and something he definitely might have overcomplicated and agonized over on his own, but she pretty well pushed the decision on him rather than giving him any time to contemplate alternatives.

Again, that's not a problem for just friends or allies, but if you have a partner who more or less makes decisions for you like that using rather cheap manipulation and emotional vulnerability often
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I mean the alternative for Dresden was to keep it to himself and put his daughter at more risk. She used a supernatural ability to read him better then tried to help him out with what he's likely been thinking about for the past two days after he himself brought it up allowing him to give voice to an issue and get help from one is his friends who can help him protect his daughter.
 
Last edited:
drake_azathoth said:
It's debatable and wouldn't be much of an issue if they weren't in an intimate relationship.

The main problem from my point of view is that Harry was having a moment of weakness where he was indeed contemplating a bad decision, and rather than just make the argument on the decision he'd suggested, Tiffany used it to pressure him to reveal his daughter to Molly and get Molly's help with locating her. That's probably a good plan, and something he definitely might have overcomplicated and agonized over on his own, but she pretty well pushed the decision on him rather than giving him any time to contemplate alternatives.

Again, that's not a problem for just friends or allies, but if you have a partner who more or less makes decisions for you like that using rather cheap manipulation and emotional vulnerability often... It does not tend end well when said manipulation fails or gets too obvious.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That isn't what she did though, not exactly.

His daughter's situation and the help Molly could provide were the central topics of that discussion. Talking about why he really wants major spiritual surgery with the person he wants to perform it seems perfectly appropriate.

He initiated that entire encounter and Tiffany effectively navigated the social context of the issue to get to the root of it.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Anaja on Nov 8, 2024 at 12:25 PM, finished with 30 posts and 21 votes.
Click to expand...
 
BronzeTongue said:
That isn't what she did though, not exactly.

His daughter's situation and the help Molly could provide were the central topics of that discussion. Talking about why he really wants major spiritual surgery with the person he wants to perform it seems perfectly appropriate.

He initiated that entire encounter and Tiffany effectively navigated the social context of the issue to get to the root of it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
You're absolutely right that Harry's concern over his daughter was what prompted him to consider the book so strongly.

However, revealing his daughter to a Yama Queen, friend or not, was still a pretty big thing and to my mind there's no question Tiffany pushed him into it by making reference to Susan and her secrets in the moment. Sure, Harry trusts Molly pretty well at this point, but unless I'm wrong he sure as heck hasn't revealed his daughter to much of anyone else at this point and he didn't ask Molly to help prior to Tiffany prompting him to do so.

Was that a major problem? Certainly not from our point of view. And yes, ultimately to his benefit. But that's a big part of why it's a manipulation roll, and it's the kind of 'I can decide what secrets you're just being silly about' reasoning that can end poorly in a romantic relationship.
 
Last edited:
drake_azathoth said:
You're absolutely right that Harry's concern over his daughter was what prompted him to consider the book so strongly.

However, revealing his daughter to a Yama Queen, friend or not, was still a pretty big thing and to my mind there's no question Tiffany pushed him into it by making reference to Susan and her secrets in the moment. Sure, Harry trusts Molly pretty well at this point, but unless I'm wrong he sure as heck hasn't revealed her to much of anyone else at this point and he didn't ask Molly to help prior to Tiffany prompting him to do so.

Was that a major problem? Certainly not from our point of view. But that's a big part of why it's a manipulation roll, and it's the kind of 'I can decide what secrets you're just being silly about' reasoning that can end poorly in a romantic relationship.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Molly is a close friend to him, they don't interact on a wizard-Yama Queen level like that.

Harry started a significant conversation predicated on a hugely important factor he wasn't disclosing. He didn't have to share it, but if you're going to question someone's motives for major surgery the new patient appointment is not an inappropriate time to do it.

He was asking for help with his daughter, but didn't want to admit that he wanted this to make himself 'safe'. What she essentially did was make it harder for him to keep lying to himself.
 
drake_azathoth said:
But that's a big part of why it's a manipulation roll, and it's the kind of 'I can decide what secrets you're just being silly about' reasoning that can end poorly in a romantic relationship.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
How about the sort of secrets that put his daughter at significantly more risk when he could just tell a trusted confidant and friend to get the help he and his daughter need? Everyone makes these sort of judgment calls. If it didn't put his daughter at more risk by not saying anything it'd be different.
 
Last edited:
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top