Furthermore Otto just has the advantage on us in terms of influencing any half brothers we'll have, as he will always be offering a greater inheritance, the throne, then what we'll be teaching them they'll get. Selfish interest alone would be a motivation for them to listen to him over us.

Note that's not to say I think we shouldn't try to bond with our half siblings, we definitely should. I'm just saying that it might be a bit much to take as a given that we'll be a bigger influence on their upbringing then their grandfather, and potentially their mother, when our plan also involves our attention being divided across such time consumming and projects as touring all of Westeros, conquering the Stepstones, visiting the free cities, becoming a knight etc,etc which we could have otherwise spent on our half siblings, particularly since we'll also be teaching them that they are to get a much smaller piece of the pie then what Otto will teach them that they deserve.
 
I'm not sure. The scene with the two of them was a bit unclear. Alicent seemed rather bothered by a sweaty Rhaenyra being close to her. Seemed as if she doesn't like us very much, what with how quickly she wanted to get away.
This is a bit, right?
 
Thing is it will probably be easier to have good relations with our half siblings if their grandfather isn't someone who has them endlessly taught that we'll kill them once we take the throne like we know Otto will. Otto is probably going to have a time advantage on us in terms of how much of his day he can spend on influencing his grandchildren, either via himself or via proxies like Alicent, particularly if we're going to be spending our time on projects like a continent wide tour and conquering the Stepstones rather then on being with our half siblings.

Furthermore Otto just has the advantage on us in terms of influencing any half brothers we'll have, as he will always be offering a greater inheritance, the throne, then what we'll be teaching them they'll get. Selfish interest alone would be a motivation for them to listen to him over us.

Didn't Otto move to Oldtown after he was removed as Hand? If not, I think that once Viserys kicks him off the Council we should make that exact point. If Otto was pushing for us to be replaced as heir, then best not have him be around them pouring poison into their ears. Send him back to Oldtown.

I guess I feel that the Blacks woes were just as much a part of Rhaenyra's mistakes as Otto's cleverness. I think we can overcome Otto as a foe. I don't think we can overcome Vhagar and Meleys and Caraxes, so keeping the Velaryons close is more important in my view.

Note that's not to say I think we shouldn't try to bond with our half siblings, we definitely should. I'm just saying that it might be a bit much to take as a given that we'll be a bigger influence on their upbringing then their grandfather, and potentially their mother, when our plan also involves our attention being divided across such time consumming and projects as touring all of Westeros, conquering the Stepstones, visiting the free cities, becoming a knight etc,etc which we could have otherwise spent on our half siblings, particularly since we'll also be teaching them that they are to get a much smaller piece of the pie then what Otto will teach them that they deserve.

Well, that's why I put the tour and visiting Essos all in the next three years or so. During that time the siblings will be too young to talk to, I think our main action with them then is to insist on putting a dragon egg in their cradle as a birth gift (a traditional sibling action towards younger Targ siblings, Viserys will love it). After our trips we buckle down and focus on Kings Landing, where I feel we will have much more influence over any siblings than Otto. Dragons, we can talk to them about dragons. Otto can't beat that, and it's something Alicent can't really help them with either.
We invite them to go flying, teach them High Valyrian, how to tame a dragon, and if they can't bond one in the Pit we invite them to Dragonstone and arrange them to bond a young dragon there. (Keep them away from the big three). If Alicent or Otto sabotages our relationship we complain to Viserys, ask to have Aegon/Helaena/Aemond as our ward, etc.
 
Didn't otto only get kicked out as hand because he was proven to be spying on Rhaenyra with the daemon scandal? I doubt we're gonna get a situation quite like that.
 
[X] Plan Don't Do Everything Alone
[X] "Do as you see fit, father. Just please do not marry Alicent Hightower. I beg of you."
 
[X] "I've found an alternative, Victaria Tyrell would prove almost as strong a match as Laena."
 
.... After all, how sure are you all that Alicent will return Rhaenyra's feelings at all? No, because if you want to risk this route there is the possibility of rejection, you know that right? I didn't see any indication of this in HOTD other than them being good friends before everything went sour, and Viserys will want to know why Rhaenyra doesn't want him to marry Alicent, just the argument of "because she's my friend" will only make him raise his eyebrow in doubt.
So even beyond what's been said. If this quest pursues Alicent and fails, it's not the end of the quest. I have multiple romance options planned out. So the chance of rejection or failure should not really matter
 
[X] Plan Don't Do Everything Alone
[X] "I've found an alternative, Victaria Tyrell would prove almost as strong a match as Laena."
 
So do we want to invite Laena to be our Lady in Waiting?

I think we ought to just propose a royal progress by the heir (us). This is a normal thing for Targs to do, Viserys didn't, but Jaehearys used to do it all the time. We then invite Laena and Laenor to join us on this royal progress.

Now this has several consequences. First of all, it sends a signal that the Targaryens and Velaryons are united. We may know behind the scenes that this is not true, but to those not paying attention it will seem like we are. Obviously this benefits us and Viserys. It also arguably benefits Corlys and the Velaryons. They don't want to create an image of division in the broader public, he just wants to express his displeasure before the court and put pressure on Viserys to untie their houses.

Now that isn't enough to make Corlys accept this, as he'd probably accept some division if it put pressure on Viserys. However, consider the implication of us inviting his children on the royal progress? The implication is that Laena and Laenor are royals. Corlys is totally going to want to send that message to everyone.

Furthermore, Laena is going to have the biggest dragon, while Laenor is going to be the only male. Corlys is going to think that they will out shine us. I feel pretty confident that we can overcome that. We get our fighting skills back in shape, and show off our abilities. Maybe we hunt some bandits, kill some Dornish raiders or Ironborn raiders. We discuss issues of stewardship and show understanding of the issues that the various lords have concerns about. We treat it as an information gathering tour as well as showing off.

It's also our chance to get to know Laenor. Maybe we can't form a love match with him, but it might allow us to make friends and possibly come to an arrangement. Corlys will be thinking about this as another opportunity to get his blood on the throne. He knows we were willing to recognize a marriage alliance with his family as valuable.

It allows us to make friends with Laena, and possibly she will find a match other than Daemon. Corlys is less likely to accept this, so we don't openly mention it, and we should keep an eye on Laena to keep her out of trouble. Laena is going to want to join us in flying all across the continent.

Now that's what I think we propose. Corlys is going to probably come back with a request that Rhaenys joins us. I think we accept it, letting him feel that he won a concession from us. I think we try to make an alliance with Rhaenys. She understands our position better than anyone else. She also appreciated that we moved to delay Laena's marriage a few more years. I think there is a potential that we can come to an understanding with her. Though she will want us to marry Laenor. Hopefully however, getting to know them both before such a marriage (if it happens) means we can openly discuss things with Rhaenys if Laenor refuses our bed.

I also think that this is a wise move regardless of who our father marries or how the vote pans out.
 
Here's where things stand, probably close it sometime later tomorrow, maybe earlier if no changes
Adhoc vote count started by Teen Spirit on Aug 15, 2024 at 1:36 AM, finished with 191 posts and 56 votes.

  • [X] "I've found an alternative, Victaria Tyrell would prove almost as strong a match as Laena."
    [X] Plan Don't Do Everything Alone
    -[X] Tell him that you tried to help him as much as you could and what was said between Otto, Corlys and yourself, including noting that Corlys cast doubt on the value of House Targaryens word.
    -[X] Lay out that you quietly looked for other possible matches for him to avoid the Sea Snakes offer without instead having half the realm try to force their daughters on him.
    -[X] Lastly close that you have fears that Otto might try to present Alicent as an alternative, though you can't name where that dread comes from.
    -[X] You did all this out of a desire for him to be happy and the house strong, hoping that there will be no more fighting about succession and that he would have time to grieve and heal.
    [X] "The Princess of Dorne has a sister. If you marry her, we will gain a powerful ally against the Triarchy."
    [X] "Do as you see fit, father. Just please do not marry Alicent Hightower. I beg of you."
    [X] "The Lord Commander has a cousin, Johanna, she seems a much more suitable match for you."
    [X] Plan: Be Our Father's Support
    -[X] List the three matches we have as alternatives to Laena: Victaria Tyrell, Deria Martell, and Johanna Westerling. Discuss the relative benefits of each. If some levity is needed, jokingly offer to fly to Volantis and see if you can find some of his wayward cousins to bring back. Mostly however, focus on being a support for your father, so that he knows he is not alone in this decision, and that you will fight for him if need be.
    [X] "It's too soon to think of such things, father. Wait a few months more, please."
    [X] [Romantic] "Forgot about the needs of the Realm. Do what your heart desires."
    [X] Plan: The Spicy Option
    -[X] A Dornish match would be beneficial for several reasons. One, the heirs would be very incapable of acting as usurpers. Like it or not, the ruling of having a daughter as heir is tenouous, and an ambitious family could use Viserys' son as a rallying point. Two, Viserys would go down in the history books as the King who both conquered the Step-Stones and the one who began to bring the last Kingdom into Westeros. It would also silence those who may see this as Cotlys Velaryon's war. And three...more personally... the wisdom of the Dornish and their female rulers might be availed to his struggling daughter.
    -[X] If the marriage is paid in blood on the Stepstones, fighting with the rest of Westeros, it will silence at least some of the dissatisfied whispers. And if unrest grows too much then I can be the one who brings stability with marriage next time. You don't deserve to be the only one suffering father.
    -[X] PLEASE, don't marry Alicent. She's my best friend. And I know you and Otto are friends, but you know how ambitious he is. He can be almost as bad as Corlys. If his grandson had the chance to sit on the throne over me it might get...messy.
 
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