Interesting.

Personally, I would have thought that it probably ties into the way Renne views Mariana as someone who was willing to get hurt if it meant getting Renne the help she needed. That Renne holds a measure of respect for her empathy and her willingness to try her best to ensure that hurting Pokemon in front of her are given the care they deserve, and that leaning into that aspect of herself as much as she can by asking Renne to play defensively and prevent everyone involved, including Vigoroth, from being hurt as much as possible is begrudgingly making Espurr grow a little more appreciative of her trainer here. Making it clear that trying to help Espurr wasn't a one-off thing, as much as can possibly be done here.

I dunno. Personally I thought there was a lot more to it than just 'doesn't want to be used as a weapon'. That Renne's status as an experimental Pokemon rescued by an empathetic girl is bleeding into her worldview a lot and she's holding sympathy towards a Pokemon that was clearly abused and experimented on and is now lashing out at the people in front of it.
It might be a place where mechanics and narrative clash, but whilst I think that this definitely is accurate in terms of how Renne empathises with others in her situation and her likely feelings towards Mariana, I do think the actual bond increase is distinctly more personal.

Like, we're not getting a bond increase from getting Roland to play support. Which again, might just be form the mechanics side, but it's the kind of thing that feels like it places the emphasis on how Mary relates with Renne rather than Mary's actions in a more general sense.

And I would also say that it's less 'Doesn't view Renne as a weapon'. Thats the baseline situation - not abusing her power for trainer battles, only getting help when we're actually in a situation that requires her abilities, something that she's willing to do if pushed.

I think part of it is the situation we're in - It would be perfectly understandable for us to make use of Renne to blow up Vigoroth with mind. She doesn't have any complaints about doing it either. But actually acknowledging what Renne wants to do in such a tense situation reinforces that this isn't something Mariana does because it's convenient, but instead because she genuinely see's Renne as a person whos opinions and desires she respects.
 
Something that's stuck with me for a while, actually, is… I read that one post that talked about Mariana being a fighter instead of a battler, and I agreed with all of it, but…

Mariana fights for survival because that's how life is in the highlands, yes. She fights to win. She fights to prove herself and get stronger. But she also fights to protect others. She was ready to jump right into fighting these poachers as soon as she realized what they were up to. She was ready to risk her life to help Renne. And when she left the highlands, she wasn't thinking about getting strong for her own glory, but so she can replace the aging guardian of the highlands in his self-appointed task of keeping the Ruin Stakes safe. She wants to be strong so she can protect others.

For Nemona, battling is an end in and of itself. Her dream job is being on the professional battling circuit forever, fighting in tournaments with her clever strategies that work so perfectly in the confines of the official rules. She can't imagine a life not battling, because that's what she lives for.

For Mariana, battling is a means to an end. She's not a battler, and in some way isn't even a fighter, she's a guardian. In a way, it actually perfectly compliments her other major character trait, "team mom," because like a good mother, Mariana is at her most dangerous when she's fighting for the sake of those she cares about or sees herself as responsible for.

Nemona lives for a good battle, Mariana fights so she and the people she cares about can live well. And that's the big difference between the two of us, and why we make good foils.
 
yeah thats definitely true. I tend to focus more on the winning side, but the reasons why thats what she leans into definitely comes from her empathetic side.
 
I actually think flinch spamming is not an issue cause we will only be flinch gaming half of the Roland's turns, and Vigoroth has two turns, so effectively we will only be flinch gaming like, a fourth of their turns, assuming we are built better and hit all of them. And also that Roland won't get BTFO'd at the start.
Plus, flinch gaming spam is fairly optimal for damage regardless, so we kinda want to take it either way.
 
Interesting.

Personally, I would have thought that it probably ties into the way Renne views Mariana as someone who was willing to get hurt if it meant getting Renne the help she needed. That Renne holds a measure of respect for her empathy and her willingness to try her best to ensure that hurting Pokemon in front of her are given the care they deserve, and that leaning into that aspect of herself as much as she can by asking Renne to play defensively and prevent everyone involved, including Vigoroth, from being hurt as much as possible is begrudgingly making Espurr grow a little more appreciative of her trainer here. Making it clear that trying to help Espurr wasn't a one-off thing, as much as can possibly be done here.

I dunno. Personally I thought there was a lot more to it than just 'doesn't want to be used as a weapon'. That Renne's status as an experimental Pokemon rescued by an empathetic girl is bleeding into her worldview a lot and she's holding sympathy towards a Pokemon that was clearly abused and experimented on and is now lashing out at the people in front of it.
I kinda read it, processed it as 'maybe dont fire the cat lazer' and then moved on but this is really interesting! I think the idea that Mary's empathetic view is a little infectious really interesting! it was an aspect i hadn't considered!
 
I read it as Renne just really not liking to attack other pokemon. Like, when we caught Ruby, they'd rather trick Roland into dealing with the mole instead of fighting herself. Heck, even back when we first met, severely injured and psychic power flailing wildly, Renne never hurt Roland; the only one in danger was Mary.
 
Okay so having some time to mull over things (and because I mainly think things through by being an inherently argumentative person who gets really stubborn about something and then thinks it through for a bunch of hours afterwards?), some thoughts.

I think I've been focusing on the fighter stuff for a number of reasons, but I think the biggest of them is that, well...

If I'm being perfectly honest, I always feel a bit uncomfortable around characters whose defining trait is their selflesness and kindness, because I see that as something where its very easy to slip into lacking self worth. This is debatably the case with several of Mariana's actions: The Ruin Stakes are something she sees as a duty, and whilst she wants to take care of them, she'd probably still do it if she didn't. Class Rep is a position that Mary never really wanted, but she also feels guilty about not doing a good job at it. Heck, we've already seen that you can attempt to kill her, and she'll just brush it off if she thinks you need help- though of course another person putting themselves in that position (theodora considering Lokix as a partner) is something she sees as incredibly reckless.

This isn't all bad. Empathy is core to Mariana's character and I wouldn't want her to lose it, and I think it does drive her and helps her connect even with individuals who have trust issues like Renne. But I think it's clear that her mentality could easily become something very self-destructive if she only acts for other people. However, there is one exception.

For better or worse, the Nemona Rivalry is something Mariana wants to do for herself. She wants to try to keep up with her, even when it would be incredibly reckless, like attempting a 2v3 of her very first gym. Roland explicitly notes that he sees this ambition of hers as something worth protecting, and that seeing it almost be smothered when Katie sent out Cutiefly was painful to see.

And we know that it's an ambition that is impossible to see to completion.

There's a bunch of other reasons I want to see Mariana develop into someone who focuses on dealing with situations like the current one - I want to get more involved with the plot, develop our own fighting style, surpass Nemona in a specific and relevant area, and have a reason to make our team strong enough to maybe get a champion rank in the meantime. But I think the reason I've mainly been beating on this drum constantly (besides adhd hyperfocus) is that without a personal ambition, Mariana feels... i dunno. Hollow somehow. Obviously we'd still control her actions, but I just feel that it would be a lot less satisfying personally.



urgh, I gotta stop letting my hyperfixations take hold and make me write word salads like these. I barely know why I'm throwing this out there. Stupidity i guess.
 
I see what you mean and honestly, I think it's interesting because "selfless to the point of self-harming behavior" is a recurring character archetype in Trails, and we do see examples of that here......in Elise, the Rean equivalent, not Mariana. Like that's Rean's whole thing from CS1 to the bad ending of CS4 and Elise is already mimicking it heartily as attested by her various battle injuries and painful blood oaths in this trip.

Mariana isn't that. She is someone who will fight, without holding back, to protect others, and she does have a metric ton of self-worth issues, but those manifest more in pushing herself too hard to attain her own goals, or goals she accepts from others but takes way too seriously, than the actual self-abnegation we see hints of from Elise. She's reckless, and she's empathetic, and she's what you might call recklessly empathetic when it comes to certain situations like Renne, but she's still got a strong sense of self and what she wants for herself. It's just that protecting people that matter is a big part of that, and she's a teenager with no realistic sense of her own limitations.
 
Yeah I'm just stupid.

I think i need to stop thinking about this stuff and let people smarter than me talk about things and accept my opinions are usually built on gutfeel and stupidity to an extreme. I spent 4-5 hours on that and it was all completely wrong and just for my own ego.
 
[X] Plan No Turns for Vigoroth
-[X] Roland (Veil of Shadows)
-[X] Roland (Death from Above)
-[X] Renne (Cat Got Your Tongue)
-[X] Renne (Feel No Evil)
-[X] Ruby (Seismic Strike)
-[X] Ruby (A Certain Terastal Railgun)
 
Yeah I'm just stupid.

I think i need to stop thinking about this stuff and let people smarter than me talk about things and accept my opinions are usually built on gutfeel and stupidity to an extreme. I spent 4-5 hours on that and it was all completely wrong and just for my own ego.
It's not wrong, though. It's a definite thing to be worried about and is part of the story. Discussing the possibilities of Mariana's character is really important to the full enjoyment of this quest, I think, and its worth talking about them from many angles.

Anyway,

[X] Plan: Witch, Dragon, and Mole Knight
-[X] Roland (Veil of Shadows)
-[X] Roland (Death from Above)
-[X] Renne (Cat Got Your Tongue)
-[X] Renne (Feel No Evil)
-[X] Ruby (Ironheart)
-[X] Ruby (A Certain Terastal Railgun)

I get to name this version of the plan.

I will potentially approval vote anything with double-support Renne and non-support Roland though. Which I guess by process of elimination is just No Turns for Vigoroth. EDIT: and Mechanically Optimal.
 
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[X] Plan No Turns for Vigoroth
-[X] Roland (Veil of Shadows)
-[X] Roland (Death from Above)
-[X] Renne (Cat Got Your Tongue)
-[X] Renne (Feel No Evil)
-[X] Ruby (Seismic Strike)
-[X] Ruby (A Certain Terastal Railgun)
 
[X] Running interference
- [X] Roland (Death from Above)
- [X] Roland (Speedy Support)
- [X] Renne (Cat Got Your Tongue)
- [X] Renne (Feel No Evil)
- [X] Ruby (Ironheart)
- [X] Ruby (A Certain Terastal Railgun)

I mean, I talked it up so much, I'm gonna vote for it. I'm very behind the running interference, moves Roland may gain, increasing our bond with Renne, and new special moves for Ruby, especially the RAILGUN BABY WOOOO YEAH-
 
It's not wrong, though. It's a definite thing to be worried about and is part of the story. Discussing the possibilities of Mariana's character is really important to the full enjoyment of this quest, I think, and its worth talking about them from many angles.
Maybe, but I really, REALLY need to find a way to make my attitude less garbage and respond to criticism as though it's not somehow a personal slight.



Which is annoying, because the non-spirally part of my brain is currently commenting on a bunch of potential temmates and roles we need to think about - we really got to see the necessity of a good Wall with the brief glimpse of the surge battle, for example. But that's also something I'm not sure I should touch on given how far away that is and that we've already established we probably don't WANT a full team of 6 until much much later.



Anyway.



[X] Plan No Turns for Vigoroth
-[X] Roland (Veil of Shadows)
-[X] Roland (Death from Above)
-[X] Renne (Cat Got Your Tongue)
-[X] Renne (Feel No Evil)
-[X] Ruby (Seismic Strike)
-[X] Ruby (A Certain Terastal Railgun)

I feel like the argument for improving Ruby's odds of landing Para is strong here. Though I do like Nerdoramas plan as well.
 
[X] Plan No Turns for Vigoroth
-[X] Roland (Veil of Shadows)
-[X] Roland (Death from Above)
-[X] Renne (Cat Got Your Tongue)
-[X] Renne (Feel No Evil)
-[X] Ruby (Seismic Strike)
-[X] Ruby (A Certain Terastal Railgun)
 
[X] Plan No Turns for Vigoroth
-[X] Roland (Veil of Shadows)
-[X] Roland (Death from Above)
-[X] Renne (Cat Got Your Tongue)
-[X] Renne (Feel No Evil)
-[X] Ruby (Seismic Strike)
-[X] Ruby (A Certain Terastal Railgun)
 
[X] Plan Mechanically Optimal
-[X] Roland (Veil of Shadows)
-[X] Roland (Death from Above)
-[X] Renne (Cat Got Your Tongue)
-[X] Renne (Feel No Evil)
-[X] Ruby (Ironheart)
-[X] Ruby (Seismic Strike)

If Ruby is in the backline doing wierd railgun stuff, she's not in the frontline distracting and tanking Vigoroth's hits, and Elise is more likely to be injured.
 
[X] Plan: Witch, Dragon, and Mole Knight
-[X] Roland (Veil of Shadows)
-[X] Roland (Death from Above)
-[X] Renne (Cat Got Your Tongue)
-[X] Renne (Feel No Evil)
-[X] Ruby (Ironheart)
-[X] Ruby (A Certain Terastal Railgun)
 
[X] Plan: Witch, Dragon, and Mole Knight
-[X] Roland (Veil of Shadows)
-[X] Roland (Death from Above)
-[X] Renne (Cat Got Your Tongue)
-[X] Renne (Feel No Evil)
-[X] Ruby (Ironheart)
-[X] Ruby (A Certain Terastal Railgun)
 
[X] Running interference
- [X] Roland (Death from Above)
- [X] Roland (Speedy Support)
- [X] Renne (Cat Got Your Tongue)
- [X] Renne (Feel No Evil)
- [X] Ruby (Ironheart)
- [X] Ruby (A Certain Terastal Railgun)
 
[X] Plan: Witch, Dragon, and Mole Knight
-[X] Roland (Veil of Shadows)
-[X] Roland (Death from Above)
-[X] Renne (Cat Got Your Tongue)
-[X] Renne (Feel No Evil)
-[X] Ruby (Ironheart)
-[X] Ruby (A Certain Terastal Railgun)
 
[X] Plan No Turns for Vigoroth
[X] Plan: Witch, Dragon, and Mole Knight
 
[X] Plan: Witch, Dragon, and Mole Knight
-[X] Roland (Veil of Shadows)
-[X] Roland (Death from Above)
-[X] Renne (Cat Got Your Tongue)
-[X] Renne (Feel No Evil)
-[X] Ruby (Ironheart)
-[X] Ruby (A Certain Terastal Railgun)

I'm honestly kinda fine with any plan I just liked the name of this one the most :p
 
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