Is he ashamed of almost choosing Kor over Fan? Or of initially believing that his Chaos-induced dreams were true?
Yes. HD nearly chose Kor and would have let the tribe die as per his vision. You tipped it in your favor and he has since formed binds with the tribe. So he is ashamed at what he almost did, especially after seeing what could have happened.
 
Well then. Leverage the fact that he did not, that "small sacrifice for infinite good [at some undefined point in time that is perpetually very far away]" is a painful fallacy that even very smart people fall prey to, and that even his other self still ultimately thinks it pursues some form of good, even if they are lost and misguided and should use their brainpower to self-examine instead of self-justify.
 
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[X] None of us are the people we almost were Lorgar, a person is the sum of the decisions they made, not of the temptations they faced or they paths they might have walked. To claim otherwise would be to heap blame for sins uncounted upon every single mortal soul simply because they have considered them. I know you Lorgar, you would not do that to others, so why then do you do it to yourself? Be kind to yourself my son.
 
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[X] None of us are the people we almost were Lorgar, a person is the sum of the decisions they made, not of the temptations they faced or they paths they might have walked. To claim otherwise would be to heap blame for sins uncounted upon every single mortal soul simply because they have considered them. I know you Lorgar, you would not do that to others, so why then do you do it to yourself? Be kind to yourself my son.

so why they do you do it to yourself?
Replace they to then
 
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[X] None of us are the people we almost were Lorgar, a person is the sum of the decisions they made, not of the temptations they faced or they paths they might have walked. To claim otherwise would be to heap blame for sins uncounted upon every single mortal soul simply because they have considered them. I know you Lorgar, you would not do that to others, so why then do you do it to yourself? Be kind to yourself my son.
 
[X] None of us are the people we almost were Lorgar, a person is the sum of the decisions they made, not of the temptations they faced or they paths they might have walked. To claim otherwise would be to heap blame for sins uncounted upon every single mortal soul simply because they have considered them. I know you Lorgar, you would not do that to others, so why then do you do it to yourself? Be kind to yourself my son.
 
[X] None of us are the people we almost were Lorgar, a person is the sum of the decisions they made, not of the temptations they faced or they paths they might have walked. To claim otherwise would be to heap blame for sins uncounted upon every single mortal soul simply because they have considered them. I know you Lorgar, you would not do that to others, so why then do you do it to yourself? Be kind to yourself my son.
 
[X] None of us are the people we almost were Lorgar, a person is the sum of the decisions they made, not of the temptations they faced or the paths they might have walked. To claim otherwise would be to heap blame for sins uncounted upon every single mortal soul simply because they have considered them. I know you Lorgar, you would not do that to others, so why then do you do it to yourself? Be kind to yourself my son.
 
[] Undertake the Vision Quest: You will accompany Lorgar with one another on the vision quest, facing the dangers of the umbral plains to help him gain control over his powers.
"It was then that I realized I had to choose," Lorgar whispered, "between the unconditional love of a father and my desire for the truth." Lorgar admitted. "I nearly let the tribe die for I saw it in my dreams and accepted it as truth. I am no different from my future self." Lorgar said as he openly weeped in shame and regret.

No one spoke once again, unsure of what to say. No one but the older Lorgar.

"......Fan Morgal. It is you." Daemon Lorgar murmured in quiet realization.
its funny how this vision quest is basically lorgar seeking the truth of himself with Fan
almost like you can choose both options of family and self-enlightenment, . . . wait

also when Lorgar said he believed the visions were the truth, i want to bring up how he should look at what we're doing right now;
a family made of Fan, Lorgar and a future vision/version of his step-brother seeking his self-truth, this enlightenment and if thats the case, then the dreams of 2 paths never existed, and we already are making a 3rd with no known ending ordained by fate.


[X] Plan: Our Own (the 3rd) Unpaved, Unexplored Road + cheesing the vison to play telephone
-[X] None of us are the people we almost were Lorgar, a person is the sum of the decisions they made, not of the temptations they faced or they paths they might have walked. To claim otherwise would be to heap blame for sins uncounted upon every single mortal soul simply because they have considered them. I know you Lorgar, you would not do that to others, so why then do you do it to yourself? Be kind to yourself my son.
-[X] tell me what are we doing? *points to self* a Father, *points to (our) lorgar* a Son, *point to corax* and a future vision of a stepson and brother undergoing a quest to find the sons self-truth, his enlightenment; greedy in choosing both family and truth
-[X] fate? choices? crossroads? we already walked off the twin paved roads and went down a 3rd path, one made of our own choices just because my son was a bit adventurous. a quest with no known end ordained by fate and one what is decided by his own actions.
-[X] to a primarch, anything difficult doesn't exist and the impossible is just a challenge *looks at (chaos) lorgar* that's the difference between you two, my son was greedy and adventurous, wanting family and truth so made his own path, what does it say about the type of person you are, as a primarch, to just accept a limitation as 2 paths? 3, 4, 10? maybe there's a limit to the number but just 2?
-[X] enought about my son *turns to corax* your name is corax, correct? and you are a future vision of a step-son i have? hmm . . . it is lorgars vision quest but i think we can use this to our beifit; keep it short ,a sentence or two, is there anything you want me to tell your past self if we meet?
-[X] keep in mind that were walking down a new road, some tragedies and failures may not come to fruition, and new ones may appear; you can pass down a message of future troubles at the risk of it not aiding your past self, or you can tell of a skill or talent you learned that i can pass on, a tool your past self can use.
 
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[X] None of us are the people we almost were Lorgar, a person is the sum of the decisions they made, not of the temptations they faced or they paths they might have walked. To claim otherwise would be to heap blame for sins uncounted upon every single mortal soul simply because they have considered them. I know you Lorgar, you would not do that to others, so why then do you do it to yourself? Be kind to yourself my son.
 
[X] None of us are the people we almost were Lorgar, a person is the sum of the decisions they made, not of the temptations they faced or they paths they might have walked. To claim otherwise would be to heap blame for sins uncounted upon every single mortal soul simply because they have considered them. I know you Lorgar, you would not do that to others, so why then do you do it to yourself? Be kind to yourself my son.
 
[X] Plan: Our Own (the 3rd) Unpaved, Unexplored Road + cheesing the vison to play telephone
-[X] None of us are the people we almost were Lorgar, a person is the sum of the decisions they made, not of the temptations they faced or they paths they might have walked. To claim otherwise would be to heap blame for sins uncounted upon every single mortal soul simply because they have considered them. I know you Lorgar, you would not do that to others, so why then do you do it to yourself? Be kind to yourself my son.
-[X] tell me what are we doing? *points to self* a Father, *points to (our) lorgar* a Son, *point to corax* and a future vision of a stepson and brother undergoing a quest to find the sons self-truth, his enlightenment; greedy in choosing both family and truth
-[X] fate? choices? crossroads? we already walked off the twin paved roads and went down a 3rd path, one made of our own choices just because my son was a bit adventurous. a quest with no known end ordained by fate and one what is decided by his own actions.
-[X] to a primarch, anything difficult doesn't exist and the impossible is just a challenge *looks at (chaos) lorgar* that's the difference between you two, my son was greedy and adventurous, wanting family and truth so made his own path, what does it say about the type of person you are, as a primarch, to just accept a limitation as 2 paths? 3, 4, 10? maybe there's a limit to the number but just 2?
-[X] enought about my son *turns to corax* your name is corax, correct? and you are a future vision of a step-son i have? hmm . . . it is lorgars vision quest but i think we can use this to our beifit; keep it short ,a sentence or two, is there anything you want me to tell your past self if we meet?
-[X] keep in mind that were walking down a new road, some tragedies and failures may not come to fruition, and new ones may appear; you can pass down a message of future troubles at the risk of it not aiding your past self, or you can tell of a skill or talent you learned that i can pass on, a tool your past self can use.

I think you are right, the choice of knowledge or family was also bullshit, but pointing that out to Lorgar will not help. This is about his shame opening him up to doubt so pointing out that he was also blind in that moment (another reason for doubt) will not help.
 
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[X] None of us are the people we almost were Lorgar, a person is the sum of the decisions they made, not of the temptations they faced or they paths they might have walked. To claim otherwise would be to heap blame for sins uncounted upon every single mortal soul simply because they have considered them. I know you Lorgar, you would not do that to others, so why then do you do it to yourself? Be kind to yourself my son.
 
[X] None of us are the people we almost were Lorgar, a person is the sum of the decisions they made, not of the temptations they faced or they paths they might have walked. To claim otherwise would be to heap blame for sins uncounted upon every single mortal soul simply because they have considered them. I know you Lorgar, you would not do that to others, so why then do you do it to yourself? Be kind to yourself my son.


Don't you dare talk to me or my son you fake future son.
 
I think the issue is that Lorgar recognises he was tempted and fears that it means that he is in some way flawed. Just pointing out that he didn't make the wrong choice then is insufficient I think. He needs more reassurance and something more future looking.

[X] Yes, you were tempted, but you passed the test and are now stronger as a result. You now know yourself, you know that your curiosity and ambition can be weaknesses as well as a strengths, so in future you will be able to guard yourself and recognise when you are in danger of falling into that temptation. This was but the first of many trials you will face, and not all will have such obvious answers as this, but I have faith you will learn from them as you have here, and they will each strengthen you in turn, whether you make the right choice in the moment or not.


Looking at how the Vision Quest is going, I wonder if there's anything we can do to help future shamans succeed at the challenge.

Generally, for Primordials, the answer for a problem is 'make a demon to do it', and that may be the case here. Either temporary demonic spirit guides or permanent merger with a demon might help.

Less scalable, the Destiny Background might help, and we can probably grant it. More exclusive options are things like True Faith, which we know most people can't get,

And, while it feels like it shouldn't, as the Vision Quest seems to be a combination of mental and social challenges, giving people the Mega-Mental and Meta-Social mutations, peak human Awareness, Socialise; and Presence, and the related Ability Aptitude merits might work.

There are some Mage merits that may apply but may be too niche, like Astral Vigor, which makes you safer when astral projecting, which I assume a Vision Quest is. Depending on quite what the nature of the entities usually encountered by non-Primarchs on a vision quest are, something like Celestial Affinity which gives you a strong intuition of how to interact with conceptual entities might also help.

A merit like the Code of Honour, which gives bonuses to Willpower roles to uphold your personal code, might also help in dealing with trails of character. Lorgar can probably design a very appropriate code for our people, and I can see him being able to effectively grant people who he teaches directly the merit.

There's also the every important Common Sense merit, which I think Fan should grant to every child in the tribe as a matter of principal and kindness to their parents, but on a more serious note could be very valuable in case a child develops psyker abilities.

If we do create demons as spirit guides, we could do worse than giving them something like the full version of the Drahma's Voice merit:

Article:
Whether you're a child, a drunk or a monk, you speak with more wisdom than you possess. Perhaps you are a reincarnated sage, or you simply have an intuitive connection with the Absolute that expresses itself in your voice and actions.

In game terms, your character is a Mentor for Akashic mages (and, at the Storyteller's discretion, others who might understand her words,) despite the fact that she isn't particularly wise herself. The four-point version of this merit turns your character into a one-dot Mentor - you may add more dots at a cost of one point per dot. For six points, your character serves as a three-dot Mentor to other people, even if she lacks the usual knowledge to teach in such fashion. She can't benefit from this herself. She doesn't know why the other Sidai light up with sudden understanding when she tells them a joke or a bar story!


It might also be worth granting this merit to some of the tribe's elders right now.
 
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I think the issue is that Lorgar recognises he was tempted and fears that it means that he is in some way flawed. Just pointing out that he didn't make the wrong choice then is insufficient I think. He needs more reassurance and something more future looking.

[X] Yes, you were tempted, but you passed the test and are now stronger as a result. You now know yourself, you know that your curiosity and ambition can be weaknesses as well as a strengths, so in future you will be able to guard yourself and recognise when you are in danger of falling into that temptation. This was but the first of many trials you will face, and not all will have such obvious answers as this, but I have faith you will learn from them as you have here, and they will each strengthen you in turn, whether you make the right choice in the moment or not.

The point of my vote was to remind him that he did choose right, but also to point out that he is no more flawed than everyone else in that regard. I do not think tests passed actually do make him stronger since there is no getting rid of his Urge. Better I think to encourage kindness towards himself and compassion to others than give him the impression that he can defeat temptation once and for all. That is a trial everyone faces every day and which they will continue to face

Looking at how the Vision Quest is going, I wonder if there's anything we can do to help future shamans succeed at the challenge.

Generally, for Primordials, the answer for a problem is 'make a demon to do it', and that may be the case here. Either temporary demonic spirit guides or permanent merger with a demon might help.

Less scalable, the Destiny Background might help, and we can probably grant it. More exclusive options are things like True Faith, which we know most people can't get,

And, while it feels like it shouldn't, as the Vision Quest seems to be a combination of mental and social challenges, giving people the Mega-Mental and Meta-Social mutations, peak human Awareness, Socialise; and Presence, and the related Ability Aptitude merits might work.

There are some Mage merits that may apply but may be too niche, like Astral Vigor, which makes you safer when astral projecting, which I assume a Vision Quest is. Depending on quite what the nature of the entities usually encountered by non-Primarchs on a vision quest are, something like Celestial Affinity which gives you a strong intuition of how to interact with conceptual entities might also help.

A merit like the Code of Honour, which gives bonuses to Willpower roles to uphold your personal code, might also help in dealing with trails of character. Lorgar can probably design a very appropriate code for our people, and I can see him being able to effectively grant people who he teaches directly the merit.

There's also the every important Common Sense merit, which I think Fan should grant to every child in the tribe as a matter of principal and kindness the the parents, but on a more serious note could be very valuable in case a child develops psyker abilities.

If we do create, demons as spirit guides, giving them something like the full version of the Drahma's Voice merit:

Article:
Whether you're a child, a drunk or a monk, you speak with more wisdom than you possess. Perhaps you are a reincarnated sage, or you simply have an intuitive connection with the Absolute that expresses itself in your voice and actions.

In game terms, your character is a Mentor for Akashic mages (and, at the Storyteller's discretion, others who might understand her words,) despite the fact that she isn't particularly wise herself. The four-point version of this merit turns your character into a one-dot Mentor - you may add more dots at a cost of one point per dot. For six points, your character serves as a three-dot Mentor to other people, even if she lacks the usual knowledge to teach in such fashion. She can't benefit from this herself. She doesn't know why the other Sidai light up with sudden understanding when she tells them a joke or a bar story!


It might also be worth granting this merit to some of the tribe's elders right now.

I like the idea of demon guides. It feels like something we can bind to a temple complex or monastery once we conquer the Scar.
 
I think you are right, the choice of knowledge or family was also bullshit, but pointing that out to Lorgar will not help. This is about his shame opening him up to doubt so pointing out that he was also blind in that moment (another reason for doubt) will not help.
I personally interpreted it as affirming lorgars choice of picking a 3rd path, playing on this human archetype of the rebel aspect

Plus I wanted to shit talk chaos lorgar and ask if Corax wants to send a message via playing telephone to his past self.

I can understand your point of having to clear his doubt, but I already copy pasted the clearing doubts aspects as the first part of my plan
 
I personally interpreted it as affirming lorgars choice of picking a 3rd path, playing on this human archetype of the rebel aspect

Plus I wanted to shit talk chaos lorgar and ask if Corax wants to send a message via playing telephone to his past self.

I can understand your point of having to clear his doubt, but I already copy pasted the clearing doubts aspects as the first part of my plan

I get that and I do not mind the vote, it's just I do not think it is worth complicating this.
 
What with Daemon Prince Lorgar speaking of the enlightenment offered by Chaos at least a few times now, one would hope that, in one of the subsequent trials, Lorgar will be able to debate about actual enlightenment, considering his own awakened Essence and Enlightenment Aspect.
 
What with Daemon Prince Lorgar speaking of the enlightenment offered by Chaos at least a few times now, one would hope that, in one of the subsequent trials, Lorgar will be able to debate about actual enlightenment, considering his own awakened Essence and Enlightenment Aspect.
Awakened Essence =/= Actual Enlightenment.

Enlightenment is deeply personal and not a cut and copy solution for many people. For all you know, Daemon Lorgar could have genuinely found Enlightenment in Chaos.
 
Awakened Essence =/= Actual Enlightenment.

Enlightenment is deeply personal and not a cut and copy solution for many people. For all you know, Daemon Lorgar could have genuinely found Enlightenment in Chaos.
When you can counter someone's talk about enlightenment with a meme

You found enlightenment by listening to 4 tumors on reality

I found enlightenment via self discovery and belief in my potential to beat the shit out of those 4 tumors

We are not the same
 
Hm, the idea that Chaos can lead to genuine enlightenment seems... dubious.

Well, then, it will be up to Lorgar and his counterpart to debate the subject and observe whose thesis is disproven.

It really is a pity that Lorgar has not mastered one of the Four Arguments of Virtue Styles. It would have been rather appropriate for these trials. The Art of Meditative Discussion Style would have been especially suitable.

Well, there are always future debates to be had. The Art of Meditative Discussion Style and the Art of Victorious Concession Style would be very good for Lorgar. Whether Loyalist or Traitor, too many of the Primarchs are lacking in Compassion and Temperance.
 
Hm, the idea that Chaos can lead to genuine enlightenment seems... dubious.

Well, then, it will be up to Lorgar and his counterpart to debate the subject and observe whose thesis is disproven.

It really is a pity that Lorgar has not mastered one of the Four Arguments of Virtue Styles. It would have been rather appropriate for these trials. The Art of Meditative Discussion Style would have been especially suitable.

Well, there are always future debates to be had. The Art of Meditative Discussion Style and the Art of Victorious Concession Style would be very good for Lorgar. Whether Loyalist or Traitor, too many of the Primarchs are lacking in Compassion and Temperance.

Enlightenment does not have a simple definition, but if we take it to mean an understanding or insight of one's place in the universe I would say Chaos Lorgar does fit the bill. He got there by mutilating his soul to fit the shape of the universe that Chaos wants to make rather than by actually understanding the way he would have fit into things whole and hale, but in the end and from his own perspective the result is identical. It is not like he is even capable to missing the things he tore out of his soul.
 
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And if we are talking about Essence-based Enlightenment... It has a strict mechanical definition that is all about balancing warp'y stuff with reality stuff.

Actual Demonic Primarch Lorgar prolly couldn't achieve it because of what he is. They are hard-locked into the other progression track.
 
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