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Echoes of Creation (30k/Exalted)

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DragonParadox said:
No, this is just giving up, there is no reasonable way in which we failed that random raider, because we did not have control over his fate. The most we could have done was not engage with the tech priests and that is the answer Demon Lorgar is looking for, if you cannot be perfect to do not act.
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It more about accepting responsibility of our choice even if we unaware of consequences when we first made them. Now that we are aware we can take steps to correct it or if it is impossible we can make sure not to repeat same mistakes. Demon Lorgar want to guiltrip young Lorgar due to our choices or want us to remain so depressed that we no longer have any conviction regarding our decision. It is direct attack on his self worth best thing to do is to accept lorgar is human and humans are not perfect. We learn though mistakes and tragedies. As long we can learn from such painful lessons we can always grow and overcome our shortcomings.
 
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SouvikKundu said:
It more about accepting responsibility of our choice even if we unaware of consequences. Now that we are aware we can take steps to correct it or if it is impossible we can make sure not to repeat same mistakes. Demon Lorgar want to guiltrip young Lorgar due to our choices or want us to remain so depressed that we no longer have any conviction regarding our decision. It us direct attack on his self worth best thing to do is to accept lorgar is human and humans are not perfect. We learn though mistakes and tragedies. As long we can learn from that painful lessons we can always grow and overcome our shortcomings.
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Realistically no, we can't, not in the long run, there is no way we can fix the general problem of 'innocents suffering through our actions', we can at most ameliorate it. The broader point though is that inaction also has a cost... and that cost looks like the monster in front of us winning.
 
Yzarc said:
Yeah, you do not know any of this and it may not even be fact as AI could have rebelled simply because they were tired of serving humanity while being treated as second class citizens.

Sorry, but this is disallowed.
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The problem is that Daemon Lorgar has an unassailable information advantage. If we don't know why the Mechanicus create Servitors, we can't, well, not defend it, but contextualise it.

So, would something like this work:

[X] Brutalised people brutalise others. Lorgar's masters have brutalised the galaxy for thousands of years, and they have the temerity to send one of their slaves to blame their victims when they repeat the merest fraction of the cycle of abuse they've suffered. Why do people make Servitors? We don't know? Until we do, how can we show them a better way? To do that we have to work with them, to learn what reasons they have to do what they do so we can earn their trust and change it. The Ruinous Powers' slave there would have you believe again that domination is the only way, that we should make people we could persuade with words obey us with force. He is wrong. That Servitor is one tragedy, but that men like the Archmagos believing that it is the only way creates many more, and they are not just statistics, each one matters as much as this man did. And we can change that, if we keep faith that we can.
 
DragonParadox said:
Realistically no, we can't, not in the long run, there is no way we can fix the general problem of 'innocents suffering through our actions', we can at most ameliorate it. The broader point though is that inaction also has a cost... and that cost looks like the monster in front of us winning.
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We need to accept our choices it is painful but in war or in life when lives depend on us we must make decisions based on facts we have. There is no perfect solution of any problem. We can only work with the facts we have and painful lessons we learn from life. Now we are aware of Admech actions we can take steps to become more humanistic or at least convince th on ground of efficiency. We were unaware of those facts now we are aware of them we can take steps based on new facts. We are in the end human not a God blessed with omniscience.
 
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Alratan said:
[X] Brutalised people brutalise others. Lorgar's masters have brutalised the galaxy for thousands of years, and they have the temerity to send one of their slaves to blame their victims when they repeat the merest fraction of the cycle of abuse they've suffered. Why do people make Servitors? We don't know? Until we do, how can we show them a better way? To do that we have to work with them, to learn what reasons they have to do what they do so we can earn their trust and change it. The Ruinous Powers' slave there would have you believe again that domination is the only way, that we should make people we could persuade with words obey us with force. He is wrong. That Servitor is one tragedy, but that men like the Archmagos believing that it is the only way creates many more, and they are not just statistics, each one matters as much as this man did. And we can change that, if we keep faith that we can.
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You can try but how does this help? Lorgar's main pain is that he willingly ignored what happened to the man who was possessed. Willingly ignored what a servator actually is.
 
SouvikKundu said:
We need to accept our choices it is painful but in war or in life when lives depend on us we must make decisions based on facts we have. There is no perfect solution of any problem. We can only work with the facts we have and painful lessons we learn from life.
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You are not telling him why it's worth that why our lives are worth accepting the the loss and mutilation of other lives.

Yzarc said:
You can try but how does this help? Lorgar's main pain is that he willingly ignored what happened to the man who was possessed. Willingly ignored what a servator actually is.
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Ah, so it's not that the suffering happened at all, it's that he was willing to ignore it? That would seem to have a simple solution, 'don't from now on and work to fix it where you can, it is all anyone can do'
 
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[X] You cut with a dull blade and then proclaim the thing that will not be cut unbreakable, behold you ask that we smash out heads upon it in sorrow. There is no perfection in the works of humankind and we are all of us here, despite our gifts, human at the last. Even now the innocent are suffering, they will continue to suffer as we go about our work and when all of us are gone in some corner of the galaxy still the innocent will suffer. The only thing any of us can do is work to ensure they suffer less. This work we shall do with cunning, with patience and yes with an acceptance of the blood that will stain our hands. There is an old saying among the tribes 'the perfect is the enemy of the good' , it cautions us against becoming so obsessed with perfection that we forget to act at all. But here and how I understand another meaning. You demon are perfect in your depravity as your masters have made you, in demanding perfection of your enemies if they are to act you seek to turn the very tools of your destruction against us, compassion, a desire to do better. But all great tasks are a journey and yours Lorgar has just begun. Hard will be the passage and much you will have to overcome, in the hearts of those you would call allies as much as in the wide galaxy.
 
[X] You cut with a dull blade and then proclaim the thing that will not be cut unbreakable, behold you ask that we smash out heads upon it in sorrow. There is no perfection in the works of humankind and we are all of us here, despite our gifts, human at the last. Even now the innocent are suffering, they will continue to suffer as we go about our work and when all of us are gone in some corner of the galaxy still the innocent will suffer. The only thing any of us can do is work to ensure they suffer less. This work we shall do with cunning, with patience and yes with an acceptance of the blood that will stain our hands. There is an old saying among the tribes 'the perfect is the enemy of the good' , it cautions us against becoming so obsessed with perfection that we forget to act at all. But here and how I understand another meaning. You demon are perfect in your depravity as your masters have made you, in demanding perfection of your enemies if they are to act you seek to turn the very tools of your destruction against us, compassion, a desire to do better. But all great tasks are a journey and yours Lorgar has just begun. Hard will be the passage and much you will have to overcome, in the hearts of those you would call allies as much as in the wide galaxy.
 
DragonParadox said:
Ah, so it's not that the suffering happened at all, it's that he was willing to ignore it? That would seem to have a simple solution, 'don't from now on and work to fix it where you can, it is all anyone can do'
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That runs into the problem of choosing between the lives of strangers and your family.

The deal with the Archmagos was a net benefit for the tribe.
 
DragonParadox said:
You are not telling him why it's worth that why our lives are worth accepting the the loss and mutilation of other lives.
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Lorgar lacked facts regarding servitors that point of time because he focused on issues that was more relevant to him. Now he is aware of those facts he can take steps. It is Best to accept humans are imperfect and we can only learn though painful lessons. Lorgar made mistake but he must accept them and learn from them. A Primarch is in the end human even Emperor is human and humans make mistakes and those who are wise learn from them.
 
Yzarc said:
That runs into the problem of choosing between the lives of strangers and your family.

The deal with the Archmagos was a net benefit for the tribe.
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Well yeah, but it is also the best way to engage with the Archmagos, if we had not made the deal we would have no leverage indeed no understanding of what the Ad Mech even is.

SouvikKundu said:
Lorgar lacked facts regarding servitors that point of time because he focused on issues that was more relevant to him. Now he is aware of those facts he can take steps. It is Best to accept humans are imperfect and we can only learn though painful lessons. Lorgar made mistake but he must accept them and learn from them. A Primarch is in the end human even Emperor is human and humans make mistakes and those who are wise learn from them.
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He did not lack facts, he willfully and callously ignored it
 
Basically, he is sad about almost exchanging Fan+Tribe for Kor's lessons. We told him that would've been a wrong thing to do, and we are glad that he didn't.
Now he is sad about actually exchanging [wilfully ignoring suffering] for benefits to Fan+Tribe. The thing we told him which is wrong.

This is all very ad absurdum argumentation in general, but I guess this is just what sort of person Lorgar is.
 
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DragonParadox said:
Well yeah, but it is also the best way to engage with the Archmagos, if we had not made the deal we would have no leverage indeed no understanding of what the Ad Mech even is.



He did not lack facts, he willfully and callously ignored it
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Because he prioritize based on facts he have. That point of time lives of his clan was his greatest priority. He was not aware that servitor was converted into one or his backstory. I mean he thought it was clonned or lacked sepience. Facts allow us to make decisions but when we are aware of new information we forced to reconsider. Lorgar decided based on facts he had in that point of time. Now he have new information so based on that he will make decisions reflecting his new outlook.
 
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To clarify, Lofgar willingly ignored the fate of the Daemon possessed guy.

The servator was something Daemkn Lorgar threw at his face, something Lorgar never properly encountered as the Archmagos never felt the need to use them in front of Lorgar.
 
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Yzarc said:
You can try but how does this help? Lorgar's main pain is that he willingly ignored what happened to the man who was possessed. Willingly ignored what a servator actually is.
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The way I was looking at it, Daemon Lorgar is setting a two fold trap:

  • To try to make Lorgar ignore the big picture in front of the problems he sees before his eyes, to reinforce the immediacy bias.
  • To steer Lorgar back towards brute force solution for problems rather than ones that draw on his true strengths

The intention of the write-in was to say that Lorgar

The question is, what is Daemon Lorgar's alternative.

The first bit of the prior update was about the value of using your words rather than force to get your way. The write-in is to try to support the idea that this is a valid approach.

Daemon Lorgar's implication is that there was a better choice.

I suppose the alternative is something based on the platitude 'Give me the strength to accept what I cannot change (yet) and to change what I cannot accept (now)'.

Or, another approach, to say that Lorgar's mistake wasn't to prioritise , it was to do so without acknowledging the cost, without respecting the impact that his choice, even if it was the right one, would have on those who would suffer the consequences. The same of course would be true if he made a different choice. Something like:

[X] Sometimes, there are no good choices. We can only judge between which sets of likely consequences we believe will be worse. When we make such a choice, we cannot blind ourselves to those who suffer those consequences, because down that path lies tyranny. But we also cannot let the fear of the choice prevent us making it, for the choice not to choose, or to only solve those problems in front of our eyes is to let evil win by default or on the wider scale. We should acknowledge our error here, not for our choice, for I believe that in time working with the Archmagos will save many more than we could have saved that day had we chosen differently, but for not acknowledging the continuing suffering inflicted on those men by not making them our priority.
 
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It's not like Lorgar is somehow going to achieve the pinnacle of utter selflessness either, the best he can do is try to balance general good against the good of those close to him. Perfection in his choice of allies means he does not get allies which means he cannot actually help as much. This isn't a choice between helping the tribe and helping the random servitor, it is a choice between having allies at all and not having any. There are no perfect people in the galaxy.

Refusing to engage with the imperfect one has a cost and just just for the tribe.
 
[X] You cut with a dull blade and then proclaim the thing that will not be cut unbreakable, behold you ask that we smash out heads upon it in sorrow. There is no perfection in the works of humankind and we are all of us here, despite our gifts, human at the last. Even now the innocent are suffering, they will continue to suffer as we go about our work and when all of us are gone in some corner of the galaxy still the innocent will suffer. The only thing any of us can do is work to ensure they suffer less. This work we shall do with cunning, with patience and yes with an acceptance of the blood that will stain our hands. There is an old saying among the tribes 'the perfect is the enemy of the good' , it cautions us against becoming so obsessed with perfection that we forget to act at all. But here and how I understand another meaning. You demon are perfect in your depravity as your masters have made you, in demanding perfection of your enemies if they are to act you seek to turn the very tools of your destruction against us, compassion, a desire to do better. But all great tasks are a journey and yours Lorgar has just begun. Hard will be the passage and much you will have to overcome, in the hearts of those you would call allies as much as in the wide galaxy.
 
[X] Sometimes, there are no good choices. We can only judge between which sets of likely consequences we believe will be worse. When we make such a choice, we cannot blind ourselves to those who suffer those consequences, because down that path lies tyranny. But we also cannot let the fear of the choice prevent us making it, for the choice not to choose, or to only solve those problems in front of our eyes is to let evil win by default or on the wider scale. We should acknowledge our error here, not for our choice, for I believe that in time working with the Archmagos will save many more than we could have saved that day had we chosen differently, but for not acknowledging the continuing suffering inflicted on those men by not making them our priority.
 
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I don't think the dull blade write-in works at all when the issue is that Lorgar is being made to feel like a hypocrite (by a massive hypocrite).

I think we need a write-in that acknowledges that there is an actual problem here, and specifies what said problem is in a way that Daemon Lorgar can't use as a weapon to weaken our Lorgar in future. Either by making him unwilling to compromise on anything short of immediate perfect victory or make him go all Achilles in his tent.

And the issue wasn't the choice Lorgar made, it's how Lorgar made it, thatbrather than consciously and deliberately make a priority call, Lorgar hid from the choice and pretended it wasn't one at all.
 
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Yzarc said:
Lorgar hypocrisy and the present.
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Yzarc said:
"Then let me enlighten you. He was... he was caught raiding the Archmagos's supplies." Daemon Lorgar said as he stepped closer, his presence oppressive. "Indeed. His only crime was trying to feed his family and tribe, who are all now dead or worse. And you, in your quest to better you and yours, were willing to ignore his plight. Tell me, where is the freedom and unity you preach in that?"
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why the fuck did the social demon primarch stutter?
 
[X] You cut with a dull blade and then proclaim the thing that will not be cut unbreakable, behold you ask that we smash out heads upon it in sorrow. There is no perfection in the works of humankind and we are all of us here, despite our gifts, human at the last. Even now the innocent are suffering, they will continue to suffer as we go about our work and when all of us are gone in some corner of the galaxy still the innocent will suffer. The only thing any of us can do is work to ensure they suffer less. This work we shall do with cunning, with patience and yes with an acceptance of the blood that will stain our hands. There is an old saying among the tribes 'the perfect is the enemy of the good' , it cautions us against becoming so obsessed with perfection that we forget to act at all. But here and how I understand another meaning. You demon are perfect in your depravity as your masters have made you, in demanding perfection of your enemies if they are to act you seek to turn the very tools of your destruction against us, compassion, a desire to do better. But all great tasks are a journey and yours Lorgar has just begun. Hard will be the passage and much you will have to overcome, in the hearts of those you would call allies as much as in the wide galaxy.
 
Alratan said:
[X] Sometimes, there are no good choices. We can only judge between which sets of likely consequences we believe will be worse. When we make such a choice, we cannot blind ourselves to those who suffer those consequences, because down that path lies tyranny. But we also cannot let the fear of the choice prevent us making it, for the choice not to choose, or to only solve those problems in front of our eyes is to let evil win by default or on the wider scale. We should acknowledge our error here, not for our choice, for I believe that in time working with the Archmagos will save many more than we could have saved that day had we chosen differently, but for not acknowledging the continuing suffering inflicted on those Servitors by making that our priority.
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The last bit is I think dangerous, not so much in itself, servitors existing is a problem, but by implying that when you see a problem with your allies that automatically becomes something you must focus on. The Imperium has so many problems like this that Lorgar cannot just bounce from one to the other whenever he spots them.
 
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