The point of my vote was to remind him that he did choose right, but also to point out that he is no more flawed than everyone else in that regard. I do not think tests passed actually do make him stronger since there is no getting rid of his Urge. Better I think to encourage kindness towards himself and compassion to others than give him the impression that he can defeat temptation once and for all. That is a trial everyone faces every day and which they will continue to face

That's why I explicitly make the point that he'll face trials in future, and might even fail them, but pass or fail, he'll still learn from them to do better in subsequent ones.

I like the idea of demon guides. It feels like something we can bind to a temple complex or monastery once we conquer the Scar.

We don't even need to conquer the Wound. With our difficulty reducers we can Shape regular reality. Once we've edited the land once at high DC it appears to count as a daemon world for future Shaping.

In fact, we should do that ASAP. Turn the oasis into a natural fortress on a fertile plateau with mirror smooth vertical sides with native deposits of valuable elements. Then we can shape it into a city and shape inhabitants. We may even be able to shape them to be the kind of people who lived on Colchis just before the destruction of the world. Shape them with a narrative that they were thrown forward in time when the warptech devices that made the wound went off.
 
[X] None of us are the people we almost were Lorgar, a person is the sum of the decisions they made, not of the temptations they faced or they paths they might have walked. To claim otherwise would be to heap blame for sins uncounted upon every single mortal soul simply because they have considered them. I know you Lorgar, you would not do that to others, so why then do you do it to yourself? Be kind to yourself my son.
 
Just following up on my suggestion before of granting a bunch of people in our tribe the Voice of Dharma merit, making them unconsciously inspire insight in others. This would fit with their being multiple personal forms of enlightenment.

We could grant it to a cross section of people. The insights granted by watching a child at play might be quite different from those inspired by seeing their parents nurturing them, or an artisan crafting and different again to the wisdom that can be gleaned from an elder telling stories of their life.

With this merit, all these different things would help teach the Way.

This could be particularly valuable for Lorgar, as I think his Mythos would be particularly enriched by having a cross-section of otherwise regular humanity as nigh-supernaturally effective Mentors.

It's also likely to benefit the tribe as a whole. Fan himself is a Mentor 3, so having a bunch of other people who are even roughly as effective at 'teaching' as him would be pretty amazing.

If/when we get some demons and enlightened mortals this merit would probably be very useful for them to keep the ball rolling on things like teaching martial arts.
 
Votes closed.
Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on May 27, 2024 at 10:26 AM, finished with 30 posts and 13 votes.

  • [X] None of us are the people we almost were Lorgar, a person is the sum of the decisions they made, not of the temptations they faced or they paths they might have walked. To claim otherwise would be to heap blame for sins uncounted upon every single mortal soul simply because they have considered them. I know you Lorgar, you would not do that to others, so why then do you do it to yourself? Be kind to yourself my son.
    [X] None of us are the people we almost were Lorgar, a person is the sum of the decisions they made, not of the temptations they faced or the paths they might have walked. To claim otherwise would be to heap blame for sins uncounted upon every single mortal soul simply because they have considered them. I know you Lorgar, you would not do that to others, so why then do you do it to yourself? Be kind to yourself my son.
    [X] Plan: Our Own (the 3rd) Unpaved, Unexplored Road + cheesing the vison to play telephone
    -[X] None of us are the people we almost were Lorgar, a person is the sum of the decisions they made, not of the temptations they faced or they paths they might have walked. To claim otherwise would be to heap blame for sins uncounted upon every single mortal soul simply because they have considered them. I know you Lorgar, you would not do that to others, so why then do you do it to yourself? Be kind to yourself my son.
    -[X] tell me what are we doing? *points to self* a Father, *points to (our) lorgar* a Son, *point to corax* and a future vision of a stepson and brother undergoing a quest to find the sons self-truth, his enlightenment; greedy in choosing both family and truth
    -[X] fate? choices? crossroads? we already walked off the twin paved roads and went down a 3rd path, one made of our own choices just because my son was a bit adventurous. a quest with no known end ordained by fate and one what is decided by his own actions.
    -[X] to a primarch, anything difficult doesn't exist and the impossible is just a challenge *looks at (chaos) lorgar* that's the difference between you two, my son was greedy and adventurous, wanting family and truth so made his own path, what does it say about the type of person you are, as a primarch, to just accept a limitation as 2 paths? 3, 4, 10? maybe there's a limit to the number but just 2?
    -[X] enought about my son *turns to corax* your name is corax, correct? and you are a future vision of a step-son i have? hmm . . . it is lorgars vision quest but i think we can use this to our beifit; keep it short ,a sentence or two, is there anything you want me to tell your past self if we meet?
    -[X] keep in mind that were walking down a new road, some tragedies and failures may not come to fruition, and new ones may appear; you can pass down a message of future troubles at the risk of it not aiding your past self, or you can tell of a skill or talent you learned that i can pass on, a tool your past self can use.
    [X] Yes, you were tempted, but you passed the test and are now stronger as a result. You now know yourself, you know that your curiosity and ambition can be weaknesses as well as a strengths, so in future you will be able to guard yourself and recognise when you are in danger of falling into that temptation. This was but the first of many trials you will face, and not all will have such obvious answers as this, but I have faith you will learn from them as you have here, and they will each strengthen you in turn, whether you make the right choice in the moment or not.
 
Turn 4: The Second Test
Colchis - 831.M30

You approached, sensing the weight of the moment, the invisible battle being waged within Lorgar's heart.

"None of us are the people we almost were, Son," you began, your voice gentle yet firm. "A person is the sum of the decisions they made, not of the temptations they faced or the paths they might have walked. To claim otherwise would be to heap blame for sins uncounted upon every single mortal soul simply because they have considered them."

Lorgar's eyes met yours, filled with a mix of pain and confusion. He was a young man caught between the innocence of his youth and the dark allure of his potential future. You could feel the presence of the older Daemon Lorgar looming beside you, his influence a dark whisper in the back of the younger Lorgar's mind.

Corax stepped besides you, his voice a calm, steadying force. "Listen to him, young one. He speaks the truth. We all face temptations and dark paths. What matters is the choices we make, the roads we decide to walk."

You knelt beside the younger Lorgar, placing a reassuring hand on his shoulder. "I know you, Lorgar. You would not do that to others, so why then do you do it to yourself? Be kind to yourself, my son."

The young Primarch's eyes softened, but the conflict within him was still palpable. "But how can I forget the darkness I've seen, the temptations I've faced? How can I ever truly be free of them?"

From the shadows, the voice of the older Daemon Lorgar echoed out. "You cannot escape your nature, young one. Embrace it, and you will find your truth. Reject it, and you will be forever weak, forever tormented by what could have been."

Corax's eyes narrowed, his gaze piercing through the darkness towards the source of the malevolent voice. "Ignore him, young one. He is a specter of what you could become, not what you must be. You have the strength to forge your own path, to be better than the darkness that tempts you."

"I am naught but a testament to your weakness," Daemon Lorgar said sadly. "My faith blinded me. I worshiped a false god. Look where it led me."

"Enough," you said, your voice like a blade. "We are not here to tear each other apart."

"But we are," Daemon Lorgar said sadly before turning back to the younger Lorgar. "Young one we were always the weakest of us brothers. Your will Legion crumbled, your beliefs will be shattered, the Emperor will forsake you."

"You will be the weakest, Lorgar," Daemon Lorgar said with his eyes closed, his voice a venomous whisper filled with self hate. "The runt of the litter, overshadowed by your brothers. Angron with his brute strength, Magnus with his unmatched sorcery, Horus with his peerless charisma. And you? You will always seek, always yearning, never truly finding your place. Never belonging"

The younger Lorgar's face tightened with pain and frustration. "I... I know. I always felt it. The desire to belong, for equals…...."

Before Daemon Lorgar could respond, Corax interjected. "Lorgar, don't listen to him. He twists the truth to suit his own ends."

The younger Lorgar looked up at Corax, desperation in his eyes. "But what if he's right, Corax? What if compared to our brothers, I'm... I'm nothing."

Corax shook his head, his voice steady. "That's where you're wrong, Lorgar. Power isn't just about physical strength or raw might. True power comes from within, from understanding yourself and your purpose."

Daemon Lorgar sneered, his voice dripping with scorn. "Spare him your platitudes, Corax. We all know the truth."

Corax ignored the taunt, focusing on the younger Lorgar. "You have a gift, Lorgar. A gift for inspiring others, for bringing people together. You see the potential in faith, in belief. That is a power few understand, and even fewer can wield."

Lorgar's eyes widened slightly, a flicker of hope igniting within him. "But... how is that power? How can that compare to the might of our brothers?"

You step forward, injecting yourself into the conversation, meet Lorgar's gaze directly. "Because it touches something deeper. It reaches into the hearts and minds of people, binds them together, gives them purpose. You have the power to unite, to inspire. That is not a weakness, Lorgar. That is strength of the highest order."

Daemon Lorgar's eyes blazed with anger. "You speak of unity and inspiration, but what has it brought Lorgar? Rejection, failure and alienation from the very people who took him in."

"Do not think I have forgotten you, Fan Morgal." Daemon Primarch spits out as he approaches you. "I remember all too well the fearful glances and whispers that followed me while I lived with your tribe. I remember how you feared my presence as I played with your children, how your wife never trusted me with the children. How the tribe saw nothing but a frightening witch child that grew unnaturally fast. Did the tribe fight for me when I chose to leave? Did they protest? Did not one person ask for me to stay?"

You did not reply, could not reply. For you had noticed some of that with your own son. You had tried to shield him from such prosecution but……..

"Young one, the truth is that you need power to command respect, to enforce your will. Without power, nothing lasting can be built." Daemon Lorgar continued, addressing the younger Lorgar.

"Respect born of fear is fleeting. True respect, true power, comes from being a beacon of hope, a symbol of what people can achieve together. That is something you possess, Lorgar, in abundance." Corax countered.

The younger Lorgar's mind swirled with conflicting thoughts. The lure of power, the desire to prove himself, clashed with the hope and belief in a different kind of strength.

"You are not weak, nor are you the weakest, young one," Corax continued. "You are much more powerful than you realize. The ability to inspire faith, to bring hope, to unite, that is a power that can change worlds."

Daemon Lorgar's expression twisted with frustration. "Do you think hope and faith will protect him from the horrors of the galaxy? Will it shield him and his from those who seek to destroy you?"

Corax's voice was unwavering. "Hope and faith have moved mountains, toppled empires. They are not shields, but they are the foundations upon which true strength is built. Young one, you have the potential to be that foundation, to be a light in the darkness."

The younger Lorgar looked between the two, the dark allure of Daemon Lorgar's promises warring with the profound truth in Corax's words. Slowly, he stood, drawing strength from Corax's presence.

"I... I want to be that light," Lorgar said, his voice trembling but resolute. "I don't want to be driven by fear and power for its own sake. I want to inspire, to unite, to bring hope."

Daemon Lorgar's eyes burned with pity. "You are making a mistake, Lorgar. You will regret this path. All that you build will be torn down and lost."

But the younger Lorgar shook his head. "No. I will forge my own path. I will be more than just another warrior. I will be a beacon of hope."

Lorgar's fists clenched and forced himself to ask the question that had been burning in the back of his mind.

"But I have a question," he said, looking at the Daemon Primarch. "You claim that the Emperor betrayed you…….Why? Why did the Emperor forsake you?"

Corax placed a hand on Lorgar's shoulder answering before the Daemon Primarch had the chance. "Because he feared my brother's devotion," he said. "He saw the danger in blind faith. But he also saw his potential."

Daemon Lorgar circled them, his eyes gleaming. "Potential for what? Destruction? Chaos?"

"No," Corax said firmly. "For growth. For change. Lorgar, young one, neither of you are weak. Both of your faith is a strength, but it needs balance."

Lorgar looked at Corax, hope flickering in his eyes. "Balance?"

"Yes," Corax affirmed. "The Emperor wanted you to find your own path, to question, to doubt, and yet to remain steadfast. You were meant to be a beacon, not a fanatic."

"And what path did you find, Corax? The shadows?" Daemon Lorgar scoffed.

"I embraced the shadows," he said. "But I also learned to emerge from them. We all have darkness within us, but it need not consume us." Corax said, his gaze hard.

Lorgar felt a surge of determination.

"So, what now?" He asked.

You squeezed Lorgar's shoulder, drawing his attention back to you. "Now we move forward. You are not alone in this, Lorgar. We are here with you, to support you, to help you make the right choices. Look around you. See the people who believe in you, who see the good in you."

Lorgar's gaze shifted, taking in the faces of those around the campfire. Warriors, friends, and allies who had stood by him, who saw not the potential for darkness but the light within him. Slowly, a glimmer of hope began to replace the uncertainty in his eyes.

"You are right," he whispered, his voice gaining strength. "I cannot let the fear of what I might become dictate who I am. I must be the master of my own fate."

You stood, offering a hand to Lorgar. "We are with you, every step of the way. Remember that you are not alone, and that your decisions define you far more than your temptations ever could."

Lorgar took your hand, his grip firm, his eyes filled with renewed resolve. "Thank you. Both of you. I will not let the darkness claim me. I will walk my own path, guided by the light within me."

"Then are you ready for the second trial, young one? Are you ready to face what you are now?" Daemon Lorgar's voice echoed, filled with simpathy.

The younger Lorgar looked up, a mixture of determination and apprehension in his eyes. "I am ready."

Without another word, the world around them shifted. The campfire vanished, replaced by the cold, sterile interior of a Mechanicus lab. The smell of oil and metal filled the air, and the hum of machinery was constant. Lorgar recognized the place immediately, the first meeting with Archmagos Zabius Seroniaz.

In the center of the room stood the Archmagos, his mechanical form imposing and alien. Beside him was a man, bound and trembling. His eyes were wild with fear, and dark tendrils of possession wriggled beneath his skin.

"This is the second test, young one," Daemon Lorgar's voice whispered, seemingly from everywhere and nowhere. "The Archmagos brought this man to test if you were of the warp. But do you know why this man was chosen to be posessed?"

The younger Lorgar's brow furrowed but could give no answer.

"Then let me enlighten you. He was caught raiding the Archmagos's supplies." Daemon Lorgar said as he stepped closer, his presence oppressive. "Indeed. His only crime was trying to feed his family and tribe, who are all now dead or worse. And you, in your quest to better you and yours, were willing to ignore his plight. Tell me, where is the freedom and unity you preach in that?"

The memory of the man's terrified eyes, the desperation in his pleas that went unspoken, the unspoken screams as the daemon slowly ate his soul, it all came rushing back from the back of his mind where he had pushed it to.

The scene shifted again, this time to a dimly lit chamber filled with rows of Servitors, once-human machines now stripped of their individuality and will. Daemon Lorgar guided the younger Lorgar to one particular Servitor. Its flesh was a grotesque patchwork of metal and organic matter, and its eyes, though empty, seemed to scream silently.

"Look closer, and see what remains of the man's family," Daemon Lorgar commanded.

Lorgar stepped forward, peering into the hollow eyes of the Servitor. A wave of horror washed over him as he felt the faint, lingering consciousness within, the remnants of a mind, trapped and mutilated, screaming endlessly without a mouth to utter a sound.

"This is the fate of those you chose to ignore," Daemon Lorgar's voice filled with genuine pity. "Is this the freedom and hope you wish to bring? To turn a blind eye to injustice for the so-called 'Greater Good'?"

Lorgar recoiled, the weight of his actions crashing down upon him. He fell to his knees, shaking. "No... I never wanted this. I never wanted anyone to suffer for my choices."

The older Lorgar laughed long and hard, his laughter echoing through the chamber, a bitter, self hating laugh, "And yet, we allowed it. We chose to sacrifice the innocent for our own ambitions. Do you see now, the hypocrisy of our ideals?"

Tears streamed down the younger Lorgar's face as he looked up at the Daemon Prince.

CHOICE:
Yeah, remember my hints at how Lorgar will react to Servators? How he trusted you enough to not make a scene at the Archmagos meeting when the possessed person was brought in? All brought up as the truth includes the negative as much as the positives. All the comfortable lies you tell yourself? A vision quest strips all of that and shows you who you really are.

[] Write in Stunt + Plan: (Fan Morgal or Corax or both)
 
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I think we could lean on hierarchy of responsibilities for this; we have greater responsibility to our people than to some rando wanderer and his family. Immediately blowing up that round of negotiations would have resulted in how many our people dead?

If we get in a position of relative safety, we could do something about Mechanicus tendency to use servitors and stuff. Especially given how everyone is rapidly growing more capable.
 
Hmm.

@Yzarc. Was that Servitor actually truly innocent? Also, how do we know that Daemon Lorgar isn't spinning us a line of bullshit?
 
Hmm.

@Yzarc. Was that Servitor actually truly innocent? Also, how do we know that Daemon Lorgar isn't spinning us a line of bullshit?
You do not know but for the purpose of the quest? They were trying to survive and were raiding for supplies. They had the bad luck to t=attack the Mechanicus who turned the survivors into servators.

So innocence is relative and even if they were Hitler, being turned into a Servator is a horrific fate. Especially if, like Lorgar, you can see the screaming soul within.
 
Innocence is debatable, but "he did not choose to trade, to beg, or to serve, he chose to steal" is another argument that could be used, I suppose.

I don't really feel it, but like, It makes sense.
 
[X] You cut with a dull blade and then proclaim the thing that will not be cut unbreakable, behold you ask that we smash out heads upon it in sorrow. There is no perfection in the works of humankind and we are all of us here, despite our gifts, human at the last. Even now the innocent are suffering, they will continue to suffer as we go about our work and when all of us are gone in some corner of the galaxy still the innocent will suffer. The only thing any of us can do is work to ensure they suffer less. This work we shall do with cunning, with patience and yes with an acceptance of the blood that will stain our hands. There is an old saying among the tribes 'the perfect is the enemy of the good' , it cautions us against becoming so obsessed with perfection that we forget to act at all. But here and how I understand another meaning. You demon are perfect in your depravity as your masters have made you, in demanding perfection of your enemies if they are to act you seek to turn the very tools of your destruction against us, compassion, a desire to do better. But all great tasks are a journey and yours Lorgar has just begun. Hard will be the passage and much you will have to overcome, in the hearts of those you would call allies as much as in the wide galaxy.
 
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Some backwater nobodies dressed like hobos come up to a palace and ask the guards if they can serve the master of the place. What do you think would happen?
Depends entirely on the context, to put it mildly. The answers varies pretty dramatically. I get the implication in context of "wat mechanicus gonna do", tho.

Also, yeah, "Look, this child is suffering. It is all useless, lets make everyone everywhere super-suffer forever" is. Yeah. Maybe that is a good angle to attack.
 
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I'm terribly tempted by, although I know I shouldn't:

[] "There is no such thing, as innocence, only degrees of guilt."

[] "There is no greater good, only people doing the best they can with what they have in the situation they find themselves in. If we can't condemn the Servitor for banditry, can we condemn the Archmagos for punishing him as his culture permits.".

You do not know but for the purpose of the quest? They were trying to survive and were raiding for supplies. They had the bad luck to t=attack the Mechanicus who turned the survivors into servators.

So innocence is relative and even if they were Hitler, being turned into a Servator is a horrific fate. Especially if, like Lorgar, you can see the screaming soul within.

So, not actually innocent. 'Raiding', i.e. a military attack on people in the desert to steal their stuff so they and their children starve to death is a pretty serious offence. Nomads in very marginally habitats are generally very unforgiving about banditry, in a way people from societies with more of a surplus would find deeply horrific.

Beyond that, arguably, death is worse. At least as a Servitor you continue to exist as a coherent being that can only suffer once, while death means that you're torn into countless forever screaming fragments at the mercy of inhuman entities of infinite malice.

Coincidentally, the entities who make almost anything that can happen to someone in life a mercy compared to the afterlife are Daemon Lorgar's bosses, so....
 
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Hm, again, something for later, but Lorgar should remember this lesson. The Emperor, the Primarchs, the Imperium, the foundation for so much of it is built upon hypocrisy.

As for this situation, hm, as Chidi briefly summarized in The Good Place, there are the 3 main ethical theories of Western philosophy: virtue ethics, consequentialism, and deontology.

As expected, all 3 theories have flaws. However, one does not agree with virtue ethics due to being too subjective and the potential for circularity of arguments.

It may be an unpopular position, but one veers more towards deontology and consequentialism, even with their flaws.

In this case, perhaps argue via consequentialism. What would have been the consequences of refusing any dealings with the Archmagos or even initiating a bloody battle over what had been done to the Servitors?

Would the good that would have resulted from that choice been greater than the good that came from peaceful dealings with the Archmagos?
 
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Lorgar seems to lean very hard into deontology, tho. And the way he is, arguments that do not slot into his worldview are painful.

If I remember correctly what that "deontology vs consequentialism" is all about.
 
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I'm terribly tempted by, although I know I shouldn't:

[] "There is no such thing, as innocence, only degrees of guilt."

[] "There is no greater good, only people doing the best they can with what they have in the situation they find themselves in. If we can't condemn the Servitor for banditry, can we condemn the Archmagos for punishing him as his culture permits.".



So, not actually innocent. 'Raiding', i.e. a military attack on people in the desert to steal their stuff so they and their children starve to death is a pretty serious offence. Nomads in very marginally habitats are generally very unforgiving about banditry, in a way people from societies with more of a surplus would find deeply horrific.

Beyond that, arguably, death is worse. At least as a Servitor you continue to exist as a coherent being that can only suffer once, while death means that you're torn into countless forever screaming fragments at the mercy of inhuman entities of infinite malice.

Coincidentally, the people who make almost anything that can happen to someone in life a mercy compared to the afterlife are Daemon Lorgar's bosses, so....

I do not think arguing the specifics of this case is the way to go here. Demon Lorgar's point is 'look, your allies are doing horrible things, give up.' He can no doubt show an infinite barrage of imperials behaving horribly because you know the Imperium is horrible. The solution is 'convince them to do better' which requires engaging with them as we did with the tech priests.
 
[X] Plan Failure and Responsibility: Lorgar you must accept your choices. Acknowledge that you failed, draw your lessons from it, and use it to your advantage to make sure it never happens again. Our life is a journey, and we make mistakes, and it's how we learn from those mistakes and rebound from those mistakes that sets us on the path that we're meant to be on. Learning from failure is an essential element in any human endeavour. Mistakes should not be feared ... just learned from. In the end We are products of our past, but we don't have to be prisoners of it.
 
[X] Plan Failure and Responsibility: Lorgar you must accept your choices. Acknowledge that you failed, draw your lessons from it, and use it to your advantage to make sure it never happens again. Our life is a journey, and we make mistakes, and it's how we learn from those mistakes and rebound from those mistakes that sets us on the path that we're meant to be on. Learning from failure is an essential element in any human endeavour. Mistakes should not be feared ... just learned from. In the end We are products of our past, but we don't have to be prisoners of it.

No, this is just giving up, there is no reasonable way in which we failed that random raider, because we did not have control over his fate. The most we could have done was not engage with the tech priests and that is the answer Demon Lorgar is looking for, if you cannot be perfect to do not act.
 
Hmm, maybe:

[X] Brutalised people brutalise others. Lorgar's masters have brutalised the galaxy for thousands of years, and they have the temerity to send one of their slaves to blame their victims when they repeat the merest fraction of the cycle of abuse they've suffered. Why do people make Servitors? Because they're desperate, after Chaos denied mankind the aid of synthetic intelligences, and they're hurt, after suffering the loss of all else that Chaos stole from them, and they don't see a better way? We can show them a better way, and to do that we have to work with them, to earn their trust and change them. The Ruinous Powers' slave there would have you believe again that domination is the only way, that we should make people we could persuade with words obey us with force. He is wrong. The Servitor is one tragedy, but that men like the Archmagos believing that it is the only way creates many more, and they are not just statistics, each one matters as much as this man did. And we can change that, if we keep faith that we can.

Attack the premise here. Target his hypocrisy, and show how this does actually contribute to making the galaxy better.
 
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Hmm, maybe:

[] Brutalised people brutalise others. Lorgar's masters have brutalised the galaxy for thousands of years, and they have the temerity to send one of their slaves to blame their victims when they repeat the merest fraction of the cycle of abuse they've suffered. Why do people make Servitors? Because they're desperate, after Chaos denied mankind the aid of synthetic intelligences, and they're hurt, after suffering the loss of all else that Chaos stole from them, and they don't see a better way? We can show them a better way, and to do that we have to work with them, to earn their trust and change them. The Ruinous Powers' slave there would have you believe again that domination is the only way, that we should make people we could persuade with words obey us with force. He is wrong. The Servitor is one tragedy, but that men like the Archmagos believing that it is the only way creates many more, and they are not just statistics, each one matters as much as this man did. And we can change that, if we keep faith that we can.
Yeah, you do not know any of this and it may not even be fact as AI could have rebelled simply because they were tired of serving humanity while being treated as second class citizens.

Sorry, but this is disallowed.
 
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