Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
[X] Ask him to stay home
-[X] This is, despite everything, a stealth mission - an insertion and a grab amidst an ongoing catastrophe. Michael is a swordsman, an epitome of a paladin. He is not suited for covert infiltration.
-[X] You would take his advice at the planning stage, of course
-[X] And someone needs to guard the homebase, as is.
I'll return to this vote for now (yeah, I am undecisive). The reason is internal consistency. We didn't involve Dresden to keep the mission a stealth one.
-[X] This is, despite everything, a stealth mission - an insertion and a grab amidst an ongoing catastrophe. Michael is a swordsman, an epitome of a paladin. He is not suited for covert infiltration.
-[X] You would take his advice at the planning stage, of course
-[X] And someone needs to guard the homebase, as is.
I'll return to this vote for now (yeah, I am undecisive). The reason is internal consistency. We didn't involve Dresden to keep the mission a stealth one.
- Location
- Canada
Well, seeing as Molly is operating under the Malfean method of stealth, namely deploying strategic weaponry ahead of her arrival, I think she has a good chance of going unnoticed considering the Hell-wide riots, rebellions, and general chaos that Mikaboshi will be busy dealing with.
- Location
- Brazil
No it is not.
Things cant get worse for the individual souls. However, things can get worse for Other People. The fall of a Yama King has consequences beyond just their Hell and its inmates.
Mikaboshi canonically has more inmates in the Wicked City than Emma-O and Kakuri. That makes him one of, if not the, most powerful Yama Kings currently around; he isnt personally the fightiest(that would be Tou Mu) but he is the leading candidate for Demon Emperor, especially since the QM has house-ruled out the Wandering Overlord.
If he falls, and most or all of that power goes to another Yama King, that Yama King will definitely become far and away the most powerful. Which translates to power he can consolidate by rolling other Yama Kings, and additional influence and resources to project into the Real World.
Take a look back at what happened when the dormant Infernal shard fell into Emma-O's hands after the fall of Lanka, and the jump in power enabled him to promptly begin a military campaign to expand his reach that only ended when he ran into Winter's armies like a punch in the face.
When we choose to overthrow a Yama King, any one of them, we need to have a plan to manage the aftermath.
We dont just do it and walk away.
====
And yes, I chose the human examples deliberately.
ISIS gestated and made its bones in the power vacuum that was a result of the fall of Saddam Hussein and the mismanaged US occupation, which devastated two countries, then triggered refugee movements that have destabilized European politics for decades by empowering native extremists.
You can draw a through line from the Syrian refugee crisis that ISIS worsened to the rightwing upsurge that led to Brexit.
And that selfsame organization is currently plaguing Afghanistan, Libya, Algeria, and portions of West and Central Africa, with tentacles as far as Bangladesh and Indonesia.
Like a tumor, its metastasized across three continents.
And thats just one consequence that I can point at from the badly managed fall of a dictator of a medium-size ME nation.
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We didnt involve Dresden because he both lacks gear, having trashed his coat in Vegas, and protection against most of the potential threats.
Michael actually does have both gear and protection if he's Carrying.
And critically, he has a sense for people and things that Harry doesnt have without opening his Sight, which is contraindicated in a Hell. At least, if you want to remain sane.
Fairly good actually.
See Death Masks, where at the beginning all three Knights get into a swordfight with Ursiel!Rasmussen in an alley outside a TV studio without being noticed.
Or when they break into Saluriel!Cassius's hotel room and beat him up, without being noticed.
Or near the end of the book, when Sanya and Michael and Harry snuck into O'Hare International successfully in the middle of an ongoing federal and local police dragnet, find Shiro's dying body at the chapel, kill a Denarian minion with a sword, and snuck out again without being caught.
Or Small Favor, which was when Sanya and Michael and Harry went to Demonreach on a rescue mission for the Archive.
Michael has shown an impressive ability to stay on task when necessary.
And the Swords are quite capable of keeping themselves, and their holders, unnoticed, when they choose to. I remember both Deirdre and Nicodemus completely missing the presence of Fidelacchius on Harry's back.
BoredMan
Salutations thou who beds thy own mother
It's definitely something to keep in mind considering how many people are there. Though given that the Wicked City isn't on earth, the human examples aren't exactly a one to one comparison.
Not a 1:1 comparison, true.
But think of things this way: If you are a captive soul, innocent or not, or an akuma, and an Outsider or one of the....entities behind the Black Court in this AU made you an offer, of escape, of power, maybe even to overthrow your current overlord, would you take it? Would you feel you owed the rest of the world anything?
The desperate make for fertile recruiting grounds, especially in the absence of hope, and turmoil often allows nascent organizations to keep a low profile.
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
[X] Accept Michael
-[X] With Amoracchius, the Sword of Love is sure to come in handy in the depths of hell
--[X] That being said, we need to address the elephant in the room that is not being able to bring the Swords into the FFCF. We should bring that up now as a potential issue.
--[X] Ask Michael about that first of all, whether he can think of any ways to address that, and if that is not fruitful… We can vote on what to do next, but my next best idea is to… maybe use SCCP (the translator/Primordial speech one) and see whether Amorrachius is able/willing to weigh in?
-[X] If we cannot find any workable solution to that problem, then we will go without Amorrachius. The inability to prepare in or, more importantly, retreat to the FFCF without leaving the Sword behind is entirely too risky given where we will be going.
Yeah we should really at some point figure out whether there is a way to allow, even on a provisional basis, the Swords to enter the FFCF, but if that would have to be now... That said, I want to have the Sword of Love available if at all possible. We will probably need all the help we can get, but being unable to retreat/withdraw into the FFCF without leaving it behind is just a dealbreaker for me.
-[X] With Amoracchius, the Sword of Love is sure to come in handy in the depths of hell
--[X] That being said, we need to address the elephant in the room that is not being able to bring the Swords into the FFCF. We should bring that up now as a potential issue.
--[X] Ask Michael about that first of all, whether he can think of any ways to address that, and if that is not fruitful… We can vote on what to do next, but my next best idea is to… maybe use SCCP (the translator/Primordial speech one) and see whether Amorrachius is able/willing to weigh in?
-[X] If we cannot find any workable solution to that problem, then we will go without Amorrachius. The inability to prepare in or, more importantly, retreat to the FFCF without leaving the Sword behind is entirely too risky given where we will be going.
Yeah we should really at some point figure out whether there is a way to allow, even on a provisional basis, the Swords to enter the FFCF, but if that would have to be now... That said, I want to have the Sword of Love available if at all possible. We will probably need all the help we can get, but being unable to retreat/withdraw into the FFCF without leaving it behind is just a dealbreaker for me.
[X] Ask him to stay home
-[X] This is, despite everything, a stealth mission - an insertion and a grab amidst an ongoing catastrophe. Michael is a swordsman, an epitome of a paladin. He is not suited for covert infiltration.
-[X] You would take his advice at the planning stage, of course
-[X] And someone needs to guard the homebase, as is.
-[X] This is, despite everything, a stealth mission - an insertion and a grab amidst an ongoing catastrophe. Michael is a swordsman, an epitome of a paladin. He is not suited for covert infiltration.
-[X] You would take his advice at the planning stage, of course
-[X] And someone needs to guard the homebase, as is.
BoredMan
Salutations thou who beds thy own mother
Hope is the one thing they will have
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Then why does no one, but me include it in the reasoning?
[X] Ask him to stay home
-[X] This is, despite everything, a stealth mission - an insertion and a grab amidst an ongoing catastrophe. Michael is a swordsman, an epitome of a paladin. He is not suited for covert infiltration.
-[X] You would take his advice at the planning stage, of course
-[X] And someone needs to guard the homebase, as is.
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BoredMan
Salutations thou who beds thy own mother
I don't want to make him sound like a liability tbh. He doesn't have a shaping defense so I'd rather not bring him there at all even if he can roll to counterspell.
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Are shaping defenses even that common? Perfect ones certainly aren't common, and if they were entirely defenseless against such threats we would presumably see the Denarians using them a whole lot more.
My understanding was that Micheal couldn't go into our hell with the sword because it was a hell, and doing that carried some sort of risk to us and to the sword.
Considering DP's ruling about hell being a place without god by definition and how angels are backed I'm concerned about it being hazardous to the swords in the sense that home office can't do as much of anything for them in that sort of place without breaking whatever agreement allows the hells to exist in the first place.
As happened with Murphy, mortals are allowed to make choices that are negative to the swords. Being allowed isn't the same as being a good idea.
BoredMan
Salutations thou who beds thy own mother
Never said they were. They can try for a counterspell if need be. My point was that Molly and Lydia have a guaranteed defense and Micheal doesn't.
I thought it was because the Hell is located in Molly's soul.
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No that's why it'd hurt us to try holding a coin instead of letting it go, discounting the actual Devil breaking us like a KitKat bar. Presumably there's also consequences to the Swords coming in for us, but this is the specific explanation we were given:
So when an Angel, the hands and will of god, takes a south bound train does it stop being an Angel or does the hell stop being a hell? Either an Angel is present without the will of god despite being part of him or the fundamental property of a hell no longer applies to where they are standing.
My assumption is neither, at first; they're both chunky entities with a lot of inertia going for them. However, they are pressing in direct opposition to each other by definition and something has to give. That should do unpleasant things to both parties.
This is an actually reasonable consideration, and one thats reasonable to bring up.
On the other hand, with both Lydia and Nergui available, we have two alternative methods of egress from the Wicked City.
Which is in part why they are coming with, instead of Molly doing a solo run.
Butters wielding Fidelacchius perfect defense'd an attack by Ethniu using Gugnir.
Murphy wielding Fidelacchius shaping defense'd the AoE shaping paralysis attack of the Lords of Outer Night at Chitchen Itza
Im confident about the ability of a Knight wielding a Sword to ignore shaping attacks.
My understanding is that Michael couldnt go into our Hell with the Sword because it was the Hell of an Infernal Exalt, formed in part of a living mortal soul and protected by some of the miscellaneous bullshit of an Exalt, and the Sword couldnt go into it without in some way toeing the line of compromising our free will.
Yomi Wan is not encompassed by the soul of a mortal.
Its an independent thing, or a bunch of independent things stapled together, and even the entities who become Yama Kings are essentially plugging into an independent battery/generator.
I dont think Hells are hazardous to Swords, or can be.
Thats the sort of thing that would be made clear up front, instead of this no real support or objection status. Certainly Amoracchius had no trouble travelling to the afterlife ruled by Hades in Skin Game, and coming back out.
BoredMan
Salutations thou who beds thy own mother
I meant without a Sword... I don't want to lock out the FFC as an escape route as my previous post would indicate.
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Yeah, except that there was never anything said about it being locked because of the mortal soul thing. We just assumed that because it makes a certain level of sense.
Instead when this came up we got point blank the post I quoted. Which is why I think you're flipping cause and effect here.
Pushing into a hell seems highly likely to proc a clash between the nature of the hell and the nature of the Angel. In most cases that's environment damage, but Molly is the environment in the FCF so it's relevant. The strain of this may not be one way.
It will have to wait for confirmation by the QM, of course.
But I remember the QM saying that it was not an absolute prohibition.
I cant really go trawling through to check right now, but I think that was mentioned at some point.
I dont think so.
The Fallen and their Coins had no trouble getting into or out of the Greek afterlife in Skin Game, and neither did Amoracchius. The Spear of Destiny, the Holy Grail, the real Shroud of Turin and a bunch of other high-end Christian artifacts were stored in Hades' vault, and are apparently stored there when shit isnt about to hit the fan in the setting, without compromise.
Michael and Amoracchius had to run down Siriothrax to kill him, presumably in his own den in the NeverNever, and Great Dragons used to be basically cosmological constants.
These are all significantly bigger players in the Dresdenverse setting than Yomi Wan individually or collectively; Hecate of the Greek Pantheon is more or less explicitly implied to be the patron and empowerment of both the Fae Courts.
Yomi Wan doesnt really get special rules by comparison IMO.
Remember that its part of the core function of a Sword to level the playing field.
Against Fallen Angels, against wannabe gods, against vampires and Titans and Great Dragons.
Yomi Wan cannot fuck with that. Any more than it can break an Exaltation.