[x] Accept Michael
-[x] With Amoracchius, the Sword of Love is sure to come in handy in the depths of hell
—[x] (write in) "If we are to dive the depths of Yomi Wan together, 'Oh father mine, I think it may be time to see you fitted with a proper panoply, don't you think?
If people think this is dumb I'll get rid of it but… well it's here.
That stops her in her tracks for a moment, but then she rallies, leaning a little forward. "They're not like you, they weren't taken." She doesn't finish the sentence, she doesn't have to: They ended up in that place because of how they lived their lives
Well, primarily this is about getting someone out who was taken, that fey-guy Joe.
All damage dealt to Mikaboshi's hell is primarily distraction, secondarily deterrence/punishment for his acts against the USA and only in third order about actually helping the dammed in the mid- to long-term.
[X] Ask him to stay home
-[X] This is, despite everything, a stealth mission - an insertion and a grab amidst an ongoing catastrophe. Michael is a swordsman, an epitome of a paladin. He is not suited for covert infiltration.
-[X] You would take his advice at the planning stage, of course
-[X] And someone needs to guard the homebase, as is.
Is it really worth not being able to escape to the Five Courts? Your voting to cut off an entire escape route, as we can't take the Sword into the FFC, just to bring in more manpower for a stealth mission. The more people we bring the more likely stealth is to fail.
[X] Ask him to stay home
-[X] This is, despite everything, a stealth mission - an insertion and a grab amidst an ongoing catastrophe. Michael is a swordsman, an epitome of a paladin. He is not suited for covert infiltration.
-[X] You would take his advice at the planning stage, of course
-[X] And someone needs to guard the homebase, as is.
I can see where having Michael along would be useful.
We dont have a dedicated counterspeller, and divine magic/prayer has a facility for dispelling Incarna-class effects without even a roll; see when Michael broke Mab's amnesia effect on Dresden in Small Favor.
That might be useful for getting Joe Magarac out.
Im also going to note that Michael is a Knight of the Cross.
He doesnt need to carry the Sword to remain a conduit of divine power; when he went to Bianca's Ball, he just wore armor and carried knives, but he was burning Red Court vampires who touched him, and tossing them around.
So I'm not totally opposed to Michael insisting on coming per se. Even Sword-less, he's useful.
I dont know if Amoracchius needs to be there though.
This isnt our Hell, so the Swords can walk in and out without issue. And the Swords provide a lot of the protection against exotic shit, like you'd find in a Hell.
Yes it would.
Think of the aftermath of overthrowing Saddam Hussein in Iraq, or Muammar Gaddhafi. Both bad people, but both a source of stability in the places where they ruled.
You dont just shank a Yama King without a plan for managing consequences, and right now we dont have one.
Im also going to note that Michael is a Knight of the Cross.
He doesnt need to carry the Sword to remain a conduit of divine power; when he went to Bianca's Ball, he just wore armor and carried knives, but he was burning Red Court vampires who touched him, and tossing them around.
[X] Ask him to stay home
-[X] This is, despite everything, a stealth mission - an insertion and a grab amidst an ongoing catastrophe. Michael is a swordsman, an epitome of a paladin. He is not suited for covert infiltration.
-[X] You would take his advice at the planning stage, of course
-[X] And someone needs to guard the homebase, as is.
Can True Faith act as a Shaping Defense? I'm just not seeing it. We'll be bringing a baseline human into the heart of enemy territory without his great equalizer.
Can True Faith act as a Shaping Defense? I'm just not seeing it. We'll be bringing a baseline human into the heart of enemy territory without his great equalizer.
True Faith can act as counter-spelling, but not as shaping defense. It is not even just a matter of power, Shaping Defense developed in Exalted because they were made to kill the creators of the universe, so they needed an absolute ability to protect their own continued ability. That is to say most beings do not have it.
The swords have a purpose, and it isn't strictly to support whatever we're going at the time. Moreover, this operation has already exploded in scope to the far edges of our reach. We don't have infinite ability to handle consequences or even a good idea of what they could be.
Remember that Uriel warned about taking a Sword to our hell, and it wasn't purely for our benefit. Hell is a state of being and even if Micheal is allowed to crusade there choosing to do so when he hasn't been called to clearly has some sort of implications we're not aware of.
To be entirely fair?
The Swords do a lot of stuff. The first time we saw Michael in the series was him and Harry rushing to a hospital to stop a mad ghost. And its implied that they have regularly worked together previously in the Chicago area.
If the White God doesnt want the Swords there, they'll say.
That they are silent suggests this is entirely in the realm of mortal decisionmaking. Which may be good or bad
Just to start.
We've got concerns crossing 3 dimensions, 2 different secret world wars, and the masquerade.
Even if everything went perfectly do we have the bandwidth to handle the Wicked City right now?
Can True Faith act as a Shaping Defense? I'm just not seeing it. We'll be bringing a baseline human into the heart of enemy territory without his great equalizer.
Yes? True Faith can and does anything necessary in that moment.
From counterspelling to healing to reality manipulation. You dont think Charity broke the doors in Arctis Tor with just a mundane warhammer and ordinary strength, do you?
Yes? True Faith can and does anything necessary in that moment.
From counterspelling to healing to reality manipulation. You dont think Charity broke the doors in Arctis Tor with just a mundane warhammer and ordinary strength, do you?
True Faith can counter-spell, which is an attempt to match external power with faith, a bastion of the soul. Shaping Defense is a very specific absolute effect developed to to kill beings with source-code access to reality since they were the ones who made it. From the outside the effects of someone countering a spell with True Faith before it can catch hold may seem similar but behind the curtain what is happening is quite different.
True Faith can counter-spell, which is an attempt to match external power with faith, a bastion of the soul. Shaping Defense is a very specific absolute effect developed to to kill beings with source-code access to reality since they were the ones who made it. From the outside the effects of someone countering a spell with True Faith before it can catch hold may seem similar but behind the curtain what is happening is quite different.
Counterpoint:
Shiro and the Barabbas Curse, which is definitely a perfect shaping attack which Shiro stopped by taking Dresden's place.
I dont know if thats how faith magic works for Knights.The power isnt coming from them, mostly, as far as I can tell; they dont appear to run short of it. But we dont see Knights without their Swords often, so its hard to tell whats pure faith magic and where the Sword is putting a finger on the scales.
Counterpoint:
Shiro and the Barabbas Curse, which is definitely a perfect shaping attack which Shiro stopped by taking Dresden's place.
I dont know if thats how faith magic works for Knights.The power isnt coming from them, mostly, as far as I can tell; they dont appear to run short of it. But we dont see Knights without their Swords often, so its hard to tell whats pure faith magic and where the Sword is putting a finger on the scales.
That is very impressive, but not a Shaping Defense because those to not bargain with the things they stop, none of this 'sacrifice' they just spell out NO in bold letters over the face of the universe and the offending magic just has to take it. Also they do not apply to other people, the bearer does not use them to alter external magic. If Molly had been in Shiro's place EIPP would not have allowed her to do what he did.
That is very impressive, but not a Shaping Defense because those to not bargain with the things they stop, none of this 'sacrifice' they just spell out NO in bold letters over the face of the universe and the offending magic just has to take it. Also they do not apply to other people, the bearer does not use them to alter external magic. If Molly had been in Shiro's place EIPP would not have allowed her to do what he did.
Shaping defenses usually have a cost; in Exalted 2E thats usually motes and willpower, but it wouldnt be unprecedented for it to cost other things under different systems.
Also, yes, they can apply to other people and objects within a given range.
For example, this is the DB Shaping Defense in Ex2E
Since the Usurpation, the Fair Folk and the other creatures of
the Wyld have been the most persistent adversaries of the Dragon-
Blooded. As the avatars of stability, it has fallen to the Earth Aspects
to develop the means to counter the corrosive effects of Wyld ener-
gies. For the remainder of the scene after invoking this Charm, the
Dragon-Blood can ignore Shaping effects, such as the mutational
effects of the Wyld or the glamour sorcery of the Fair Folk. Both
the Dragon-Blood's person and gear are protected and cannot be
changed by such Wyld effects. The Charm does not protect against
any Shaping effects brought to bear by Celestial Exalted, however,
including Sidereal astrology. This effect can be extended to any
number of other people by touching them and paying the full cost
of the Charm for each of them.
Yes, you can activate it for other people, individually. Solars, IIRC, can do the same thing as a Leader effect, which is why their mortal armies didnt simply melt in some of the environments they fought wars in.
The Alchemical version, if IIRC, enforces a zone of NOPE around the Exalt, and so on.
ExWoD Infernal shaping defense doesnt work that way, but thats largely due to the thematic thrust of the Infernal charmset.
The way Shiro handled the Barabbas Curse is very much like how some ExWoD Dark Ages Infernal charms work, only inverted. Specifically, Sovereign of the Wicked City.
Sovereign of The Wicked City (•••••)
Injury is of little matter; the Infernal is soon once more the very image of health, foisting off her injuries on others.
System: Whenever the character is the subject of any supernatural power that seeks to transform, infect, taint, transport, or control her body or spirit, she may reflexively spend 1 Essence or 1 Willpower and roll Willpower against difficulty 7. Success undoes the hostile magic before it can finish affecting the Infernal, protecting her completely, and immunizes her against repeated attempts to exert the same sort of influence for the rest of the scene. Moreover, it throws off that hostile magic, causing it to afflict some random stranger within 20 yards, subject to the same limitations as Armor of Lords. If no suitable sacrifice exists, add 1 Essence to this Charm's cost.
Alternately, the Infernal can spend 1 Essence to radically accelerate her healing for 24 hours. So long as she takes no strenuous activity, the Infernal heals all bashing damage or one level of lethal damage per 15 minutes of rest. An hour of rest mends one level of aggravated damage. Every mortal within a mile of the Infernal while she recuperates in this fashion grows sickly and afflicted by random aches and pains; in a few cases, old wounds may even reopen
Faith magic is pretty free form, and appears to scale to need.
So how that works IC is very much up to your interpretation and the needs of your story.
Shaping defenses usually have a cost; in Exalted 2E thats usually motes and willpower, but it wouldnt be unprecedented for it to cost other things under different systems.
Also, yes, they can apply to other people and objects within a given range.
For example, this is the DB Shaping Defense in Ex2E
Yes, you can activate it for other people, individually. Solars, IIRC, can do the same thing as a Leader effect, which is why their mortal armies didnt simply melt in some of the environments they fought wars in.
The Alchemical version, if IIRC, enforces a zone of NOPE around the Exalt, and so on.
ExWoD Infernal shaping defense doesnt work that way, but thats largely due to the thematic thrust of the Infernal charmset.
The way Shiro handled the Barabbas Curse is very much like how some ExWoD Dark Ages Infernal charms work, only inverted. Specifically, Sovereign of the Wicked City.
Sovereign of The Wicked City (•••••)
Injury is of little matter; the Infernal is soon once more the very image of health, foisting off her injuries on others.
System: Whenever the character is the subject of any supernatural power that seeks to transform, infect, taint, transport, or control her body or spirit, she may reflexively spend 1 Essence or 1 Willpower and roll Willpower against difficulty 7. Success undoes the hostile magic before it can finish affecting the Infernal, protecting her completely, and immunizes her against repeated attempts to exert the same sort of influence for the rest of the scene. Moreover, it throws off that hostile magic, causing it to afflict some random stranger within 20 yards, subject to the same limitations as Armor of Lords. If no suitable sacrifice exists, add 1 Essence to this Charm's cost.
Alternately, the Infernal can spend 1 Essence to radically accelerate her healing for 24 hours. So long as she takes no strenuous activity, the Infernal heals all bashing damage or one level of lethal damage per 15 minutes of rest. An hour of rest mends one level of aggravated damage. Every mortal within a mile of the Infernal while she recuperates in this fashion grows sickly and afflicted by random aches and pains; in a few cases, old wounds may even reopen
Faith magic is pretty free form, and appears to scale to need.
So how that works IC is very much up to your interpretation and the needs of your story.
I forgot about the DA charm, that said I think there is a qualitative difference between sacrificing one's life to end a curse and 'sacrificing' a mote of Essence. One is an ultimate act of faith and the other is the God Engine in the Exalts soul working as intended.
[x] Accept Michael
-[x] With Amoracchius, the Sword of Love is sure to come in handy in the depths of hell
All other things aside if there are any moral dilemmas imposed by this trip Michael will be a good barometer as to how to act, if only to reassure Molly that she did the best she could. I REALLY think leaving him behind is an awful idea, psychologically speaking. There will be a lot of nastiness in this trip and trying to compartmentalize things from her parents is a terrible idea. They aren't children.
I forgot about the DA charm, that said I think there is a qualitative difference between sacrificing one's life to end a curse and 'sacrificing' a mote of Essence. One is an ultimate act of faith and the other is the God Engine in the Exalts soul working as intended.
VOTE
[X] Accept Michael
-[X] With Amoracchius, the Sword of Love is sure to come in handy in the depths of hell
[X] Ask a couple Hand agents to babysit the Carpenter household in his absence
[X] STUNT: You exhale, a deep breath that turns into a shaky laugh. "Thats.....not a decision I feel currently qualified to weigh in on, Dad. But Im always happy to have you." Then a thought occurs to you."But if you arent here, then I need to make some calls." You turn to Charity "Mom, I hope you dont mind some human house guests?"
RATIONALE
We accepted Michael's help the last time that there was Yama King business; Emma-O sent a greater akuma to Chicago, murdered a couple people, and kidnapped our minions. We accepted Michael's help in retrieving our minions and Tuzi's boyfriend J. I think we can accept his help in retrieving Joe Magarac.
Like someone said earlier, this appears to be an issue within the purview of mortal free will.
[X] Ask him to stay home
-[X] This is, despite everything, a stealth mission - an insertion and a grab amidst an ongoing catastrophe. Michael is a swordsman, an epitome of a paladin. He is not suited for covert infiltration.
-[X] You would take his advice at the planning stage, of course
-[X] And someone needs to guard the homebase, as is.
[X] Ask him to stay home
-[X] This is, despite everything, a stealth mission - an insertion and a grab amidst an ongoing catastrophe. Michael is a swordsman, an epitome of a paladin. He is not suited for covert infiltration.
-[X] You would take his advice at the planning stage, of course
-[X] And someone needs to guard the homebase, as is.
-[X] Also you would like to be able to escape to your world without leaving the Sword behind.
Yes it would.
Think of the aftermath of overthrowing Saddam Hussein in Iraq, or Muammar Gaddhafi. Both bad people, but both a source of stability in the places where they ruled.
You dont just shank a Yama King without a plan for managing consequences, and right now we dont have one.
No. On this issue, f*ck that. This is hell we are talking about. It's the worst possible state of existence. Molly specifically calls this line of reasoning BS in the last update:
You had been expecting Mom do go off at some point during the subsequent conversation, what you had not been expecting is being quizzed by dad about the nature of the hope plague and what it's going to do to people, if rebellion is just going to make their existence even more miserable.
"Hell is... varied, it creates the illusion that some fates are worse than others, but it is still hell, it can't get worse. Oblivion would be better than what's happening to those poor souls, how they are being used and made to use themselves. It's... hard to describe and the world's a better place for not doing it."
This is the direct IC refutation of your "but think of the consequences" line of reasoning.
[X] Accept Michael
-[X] With Amoracchius, the Sword of Love is sure to come in handy in the depths of hell
[X] Ask a couple Hand agents to babysit the Carpenter household in his absence
[X] Accept Michael
-[X] With Amoracchius, the Sword of Love is sure to come in handy in the depths of hell
[X] Ask a couple Hand agents to babysit the Carpenter household in his absence
[X] STUNT: You exhale, a deep breath that turns into a shaky laugh. "Thats.....not a decision I feel currently qualified to weigh in on, Dad. But Im always happy to have you." Then a thought occurs to you. "But if you arent here, then I need to make some calls." You turn to Charity "Mom, I hope you dont mind some human house guests?"
