Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

No it needs more than just a connection to Earth every Spirit realm has a connection to Earth it needs Prime energy from Earth not Souls like an afterlife but actual Prime links that's what separates Horizon Realms from Spirit realms. Voormas was also explicitly not spending every day for centuries in that place. He was an active member of the Traditions and the Euthanatos he very actively spent time on Earth in their Sanctums and in the Horizon realms modeled to look like Earth he didn't just live in that hell he had students too so he was very not just in a hell for hundreds of years. One more thing he very specifically wasn't drinking the hell juice until he was about to stop the wheel of karma almost like that's not good for him or anyone.
1)Its an explicit plot point that the Hell of Spiked Chains fell after kuejin cut off its access to tainted chi from tainted dragons nests on Earth back around the 14th century.
I am comfortable saying you are mistaken.

2)You are wrong about Voormas.
He spent years in Yomi Wan, taking shelter there after he fled the discovery of his corruption in 1996.


An Exalted can sell his soul, that is part of free will. But an Akuma can't Exalt, neither in WoD nor Exalted, as far as I know.
If you don't have free will anymore, you are out of luck.
Akuma cant Exalt.
However, Exalts can choose to become Akuma, thus becoming Exalted Akuma.
There's mechanics for it right there in the relevant chapter of ExWoD.



Okay first off we never debated non mortals can't be multiple things thats a whole different topic. I mean Odin is clearly more than even just fae mantle (and butcher has said one of his mantles is fae) vadderdung, and god. Also outsiders clearly break rules so its a weird example. We are saying mortals fucking mortals can add certain things and yes mortals can stack templates thats not really been debated but mortals are fucking mortals if they were called mortals in the books we should assume thats what they are. Becoming denarian does not make one not human, being white court does not make one not human, being a scion does not make one not human, but a scion, a white court, or a normie human can become denarian, and there are probably plenty of mantles out there which are designed for mortals to use. Also I mean the archive is clearly human so becoming denarians not a deal breaker. As for the bigfoots thats a good point though I would like to point out while butchers not said anyways what defines a mortal completely. Angels aren't mortals but they have souls and can be soul gazed (though your brain would fucking melt) Odin has a soul this is only known because wog that Odin has soulfire but who the fuck knows. Maybe humans aren't the first or only mortals on earth maybe the forest people are a type of mortals fuck if I know or doesn't explain all the rules. They probably have souls in a similar enough way for a soul gaze to work I imagine and freedom enough its possible to offer them the pact they do with humans.
1) Ivy is mortal, is also the current Archive, an entity that canonically wields power up there at the level of the junior Fae Queens. And the Denarians and their archangel backer obviously thought that was no impediment to becoming a Denarian.
And in ExWoD, you can be an Exalt AND an akuma. Simultaneously. So its not a non-mortal thing.

2)The literal goal of canon Infernals in ExWoD is to become Demon Emperor.
Lord of not just Yomi Wan, but all reality.
That would not be possible without the ability to assume said power.

Didn't we see literal nevernever type entrances into these places? Fuck can't we just ask the qm if these places have ectoplasm? Because I'm fairly sure they do.
We didnt see any.
WoD canon says they exist in the Far East, but we havent seen any so far.

Okay your assuming they still count as human though and your also assuming dresden files doesn't change the rules. Does Mab count as human? Do any of the fae who used to be human aside from them count as human? If yes there's no way they wouldn't of become denarians by now and I'm fairly sure we've heard that they can't be before. Why are you separating yama kings from fae when they have a similar experience? Heck if we're gonna pull on wod which I think plays less of a role in this quest than dresden files aren't there plenty of splats about kuei-jin saying their no longer human, about akuma saying their no longer human, about the dead no longer being human?
Mab is Fae.
Mab has a job to do, constraints doing that job and her entire existence is wrapped around that function.
She cant even lie.

Changelings who choose to be Fae appear to undergo a template change. They become Fae.
They explicitly retain a shard of humanity according to Butcher, but they arent fully human any longer.
(That may or may not apply to Winter Lady!Molly, by the way. Butcher hasnt expanded on this yet)


Yama Kings are not Fae. They can and do lie with impunity outside of specific legal circumstances. They can and do elevate themselves to power. They have the free will to ignore their supposed role in rehabilitating the worst of the worst and focus on personal aggrandizement and wars of conquest. To come and go on Earth.

They literally started their canon career by vandalizing reality, wholesale stealing other spirit realms in order to make their own. They murder other Yama Kings, lie, steal and cheat.
They are under no obligation to serve any useful purpose whatsoever.

Yama Kings are not Faerie Queens. These are not vaguely similar entities.
 
My dear fellow, I would suggest you go back and read some of the writeups for Kueijin elders again.

Whatever kuejin dharma is supposed to translate to, it doesnt track morality.
Old age and elevated dharma does not make kuejin nice fellows. Certainly not by mortal standards; the prescribed punishments for trespass in some kuejin courts would meet Yama King approval for how nasty they can get.

Even Nergui did not get this way without enough blood and death behind him in his centuries of life to impress a naagloshii.

Dharma is definitely moral in the broadest sense, of being a code of conduct that distinguishes vice from virtue and elevate the later over the former, but from what Molly knows of them (and keep in mind she has a demon's eye view of things) it seems very divergent to what she would consider morality. Rather than being about the greatest good for the greatest number Dharma seem concerned with harmony and stability within and without. Dharma is about climbing from the darkness of Yomi not to become human again but Wan Xian, the Ten Thousand Immortals, living gods of a world now past.
 
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Was Kattrin no longer human because she was a Valkyrie? Did Dresden stop being mortal when he became Winter Knight?
Is Molly not human anymore because she is soulbound to a primordial godkiller weapon and ruler of a Hell?
Is Lydia not human because she is an Exigent of Death, empowerment unknown
The answer to the first question is yes. The answer to the second is "knights are supposed to be spscial", the answer to the last two is "exalts are built different, praise the Great Maker"
*tilts head*
Why do you think thats how it works?
Here
As a note, the Yama Kings cannot just show up, they are bound to their realms. Mikaboshi is the Wicked City a way that is not shared by say the Fey. When he moves he has to do so by dragging the city of namelessness and alienation with him like a grey cloak. He basically needs someone to crack the Veil for him and it would have to be a rather large crack.
 
1)Its an explicit plot point that the Hell of Spiked Chains fell after kuejin cut off its access to tainted chi from tainted dragons nests on Earth back around the 14th century.
I am comfortable saying you are mistaken.

2)You are wrong about Voormas.
He spent years in Yomi Wan, taking shelter there after he fled the discovery of his corruption in 1996.



Akuma cant Exalt.
However, Exalts can choose to become Akuma, thus becoming Exalted Akuma.
There's mechanics for it right there in the relevant chapter of ExWoD.




1) Ivy is mortal, is also the current Archive, an entity that canonically wields power up there at the level of the junior Fae Queens. And the Denarians and their archangel backer obviously thought that was no impediment to becoming a Denarian.
And in ExWoD, you can be an Exalt AND an akuma. Simultaneously. So its not a non-mortal thing.

2)The literal goal of canon Infernals in ExWoD is to become Demon Emperor.
Lord of not just Yomi Wan, but all reality.
That would not be possible without the ability to assume said power.


We didnt see any.
WoD canon says they exist in the Far East, but we havent seen any so far.


Mab is Fae.
Mab has a job to do, constraints doing that job and her entire existence is wrapped around that function.
She cant even lie.

Changelings who choose to be Fae appear to undergo a template change. They become Fae.
They explicitly retain a shard of humanity according to Butcher, but they arent fully human any longer.
(That may or may not apply to Winter Lady!Molly, by the way. Butcher hasnt expanded on this yet)


Yama Kings are not Fae. They can and do lie with impunity outside of specific legal circumstances. They can and do elevate themselves to power. They have the free will to ignore their supposed role in rehabilitating the worst of the worst and focus on personal aggrandizement and wars of conquest. To come and go on Earth.

They literally started their canon career by vandalizing reality, wholesale stealing other spirit realms in order to make their own. They murder other Yama Kings, lie, steal and cheat.
They are under no obligation to serve any useful purpose whatsoever.

Yama Kings are not Faerie Queens. These are not vaguely similar entities.
But the archive is mortal by nature they aren't some other type of being they are mortal. Given dp kinda changed that. At the very least ivy is and has always been mortal. Becoming denarians doesn't change you from being mortal.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by Anaja on May 11, 2024 at 4:36 AM, finished with 155 posts and 28 votes.

Thought it was a bit closer than that.
It's a shame that it looks like we're not going all in on this.
 
[X] Spread the word only to his closest allies, those he is reasonably sure will not take it ill

I'd rather not potentially give the Denarians an excuse to ruin our plans (or advance their own plans better using the reduced opposition)?
 
Adhoc vote count started by Anaja on May 11, 2024 at 4:36 AM, finished with 155 posts and 28 votes.

Thought it was a bit closer than that.
It's a shame that it looks like we're not going all in on this.
We are going all in on this, we're just not screwing around for every hypothetically compatible element. It's the same reason we're not waiting three months to build something even bigger; too much extra complication for the benefit. Though at least that scenario, unlike the knight of the cross inclusion, has a clear means of improving the situation.
 
Ok, vote closed, Molly is not telling every Jade Court Vampire she can reach that she has a Hell grimoire unparalleled in the history of the planet
*puts away encounter table for later*. :V
 
Arc 12 Post 61: Down Dangerous Roads
Down Dangerous Roads

25th of January 2007 A.D.

"Those you trust only. Those of like mind?" The question is perfunctory on some level, if he did think you should die it's not like Nergui, a word would tell you before he'd finish his contract and come back to finish you in the bargain, but you'd like to think you're a good judge of character no matter the state of one's mortality.

"Like grains of rice remain the living who churn and swirl in the passing of the ages yet we who follow the Great Principle grow apart with each night passing." The ancient tips his head back as as one might great a pleasant rain after a long drought, senses expanding all around. "It will be as you ask, expect correspondence before the winter is out."

You nod and take your leave of the old warrior, wondering what it is about him that sets you more at ease than say Lara Raith. Certainly he is not any more human, less son indeed, his every every mannerism of mortality directed with the precision of a Noh performer. Is it just that he isn't trying to trick your brain into thinking he's a friend that's lowering your guard? Maybe it's just that his help is bought and paid for, there aren't any angles to assess. Which might be the reason you gave him the book.

Life without any angles is kind of boring.

Over the next few hours you make sure the arcane saw you recovered from Daedalus is safe in storage and check in on on the people you rescued from Basilisk. They are in stable condition now, but according to the doctors their prospects aren't good. Even with access to the spirit that had infected them and its collaboration it is going to be an uphill battle to do major restoration work.

***​

So by the time you get back to Chicago it's lunchtime, it is also snowing, a light dusting of white over most of the cars in the neighborhood, most people are in no rush to get anywhere, after all why would they, it's just another Friday? The peacefulness of it all leaves you off balance, like you can't quite believe there aren't any akuma in the shrubbery or some kind of aquatic infiltrator cyborg in the duck pond. It's where you'd put one.

"Molly, how was Boston? How was Harvard?" Mom asks you as soon as you come in the door, with just enough emphasis on the last to make it sting.

"Weird," you offer, the word enough to make Leech's metaphorical ears perk up a little. No doubt her own cybernetic helper had already shared a good bit more than Mom would want an eleven year old to know, but you remember being eleven and listening at doors to find out where people are going, with whom and what kind of danger they might be in.

Dad's shoulders tense, but he don't stop washing the lettuce he'd been handing which you walk in. "We'll talk after lunch. Your Mom's making oven baked pork chops."

So she is, it's very tasty and you say so, but Daniel Mathew and Leech can all tell you have a lot to share. Alas you can only offer a commiserating look as they are shooed away with a piece of cherry pie each while you go into the living room to face the music.

***​

"If you have any investments in mortgage backed securities get rid of them, they most likely aren't worth a hundredth of their face value." you start. It would be a lie to claim you aren't doing it at least partially to see the look on your mother's face. "I uncovered a plot by one of the Yama Kings to blow up the US financial market and hopefully I slowed it down with a call to someone at the Federal Reserve, but a slow down is all it's going to be because the financial market is strikingly bomb-shaped as far as I can tell with my previous lack of knowledge or interest for no sinister reason beyond those that can be assigned to mortal greed. Either way though this can't stand. If Mikaboshi does not see any consequences he is going to try again and it was dumb luck or Providence that I spotted it this time..."

Lost 1 Essence -> Now at 14/15 (Empathy Excelency)

"What are you planning?" Dad asks, not accusingly but as serious as you had ever heard him.

"Well you remember that the fey courts owe me favors, I'm calling one of them due. Hell is about to come down with an epidemic..."

You had been expecting Mom do go off at some point during the subsequent conversation, what you had not been expecting is being quizzed by dad about the nature of the hope plague and what it's going to do to people, if rebellion is just going to make their existence even more miserable.

"Hell is... varied, it creates the illusion that some fates are worse than others, but it is still hell, it can't get worse. Oblivion would be better than what's happening to those poor souls, how they are being used and made to use themselves. It's... hard to describe and the world's a better place for not doing it."

The frown does not leave his face, if anything it deepens, though now whatever thoughts he has turn inwards... which is all Mom needed to jump in. "Molly, why, just why are you doing this? The thing's been beaten right? The economy will do whatever it was going to do in the first place. There's no reason to keep risking yourself," she's almost pleading now and you hate it. "Why would you need to go into the bowels of hell...!"

Reasons there are plenty, chains of logic for every step of the way. All that damn Akuma would had to do to keep its head was not to try to shoot a girl in a coffee shop. But really it's simpler than that: "You came looking in the bowels of Winter for me. "

That stops her in her tracks for a moment, but then she rallies, leaning a little forward. "They're not like you, they weren't taken." She doesn't finish the sentence, she doesn't have to: They ended up in that place because of how they lived their lives

"I don't think they deserve hopelessness and I can do something about it. How could I not?"

"I'm coming with you," Dad says quietly, shocking both of you into silence with the implications. If he had been inspired to go he'd have said to, he hadn't been, but knights are people too.

"With Amoracchius?" you ask after a moment.

"It does not feel wrong to take it." Which is a long way from it feeling right, his tone says loud and clear.

How does Molly react?

[] Accept Michael
-[] With Amoracchius, the Sword of Love is sure to come in handy in the depths of hell
-[] Without Amoracchius, that is not a choice that should be taken on mortal judgement alone, but if he wants to come you're sure he'll be of help, foe his wisdom and skill with as sword both

[] Ask him to stay home
-[] Write in argument


OOC: Dresden is not the only one who would insist to come if you told him.
 
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[X] Ask him to stay home
-[X] This is, despite everything, a stealth mission - an insertion and a grab amidst an ongoing catastrophe. Michael is a swordsman, an epitome of a paladin. He is not suited for covert infiltration.
-[X] You would take his advice at the planning stage, of course
-[X] And someone needs to guard the homebase, as is.
 
[x] Accept Michael
-[x] With Amoracchius, the Sword of Love is sure to come in handy in the depths of hell


This whole thing is about choice.
Having it, or not.
Using it, or not.
Finally giving it to the ones who lack it.

Denying it to the father who wants to fight along his daughter feels all kind of wrong.
 
[x] Accept Michael
-[x] With Amoracchius, the Sword of Love is sure to come in handy in the depths of hell


This whole thing is about choice.
Having it, or not.
Using it, or not.
Finally giving it to the ones who lack it.

Denying it to the father who wants to fight along his daughter feels all kind of wrong.
Michael coming with us increases our chances of swordfighting Mikaboshi on top of his tower by like a thousand fold
Would you mind copying the vote, because I am very much wavering and uncertain, and might change my mind?
 
If it was the Sword of Hope it would be a no brainer. Sword of Love doesn't have the same thematic fit.
 
You know… it might make Molly's parents feel better if we made them some gear so they can actually help their daughter.
Like, Michael could use some proper armor to go with his love sword, and as much as it would probably annoy charity? If she wants to hit things with a hammer Molly is very capable of forging her a better one than she can make herself, though building it together might be good for bonding?
We do have three days… does anyone remember what we have for reagents on hand?
 
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If we take Micheal we won't be able to go into the Five Courts to extract from Hell or coordinate. The Sword can't go in there.

Please keep that in mind guys.

[X] Ask him to stay home
-[X] This is, despite everything, a stealth mission - an insertion and a grab amidst an ongoing catastrophe. Michael is a swordsman, an epitome of a paladin. He is not suited for covert infiltration.
-[X] You would take his advice at the planning stage, of course
-[X] And someone needs to guard the homebase, as is.
 
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[X] Ask him to stay home
-[X] This is, despite everything, a stealth mission - an insertion and a grab amidst an ongoing catastrophe. Michael is a swordsman, an epitome of a paladin. He is not suited for covert infiltration.
-[X] You would take his advice at the planning stage, of course
-[X] And someone needs to guard the homebase, as is.


The swords have a purpose, and it isn't strictly to support whatever we're going at the time. Moreover, this operation has already exploded in scope to the far edges of our reach. We don't have infinite ability to handle consequences or even a good idea of what they could be.

Remember that Uriel warned about taking a Sword to our hell, and it wasn't purely for our benefit. Hell is a state of being and even if Micheal is allowed to crusade there choosing to do so when he hasn't been called to clearly has some sort of implications we're not aware of.


Well, even if it comes to that…
Would it be so bad?
I'm not sure we could win a head on fight like that where he's gathered his strength behind him. Even if we could chewing everything we've bitten off is already nearly choking us. Adding another hell realm we need to defend from its rivals isn't going to help.

A crippled Yama king already has shades of that, but it's dramatically different than a dead one.

I'm all for circling back later if we can, but look at our list of concerns right now:

- Chicago issues
- Paranet
- The stupid magic feds
- The smart magic feds
- Vampire War
- Nemesis Plots
- Harvard (mortal)
- Harvard (extradimensional training site)
- FCF - Earth diplomacy
- The global economy
- Jade Court nerd herding
- Supernatural arms trading
- Denarians

Just to start.

We've got concerns crossing 3 dimensions, 2 different secret world wars, and the masquerade.

Even if everything went perfectly do we have the bandwidth to handle the Wicked City right now?
 
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