In the absolute sense yes, though not as low essence as Molly is. The bigger problem is it might break something even worse than last time a primordial died.
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
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In the absolute sense yes, though not as low essence as Molly is. The bigger problem is it might break something even worse than last time a primordial died.
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So killing the outsider gods could have consequences good to know.
That is rather interesting I wouldn't have expected that considering the underworld isn't a natural part of creation and Oblivion is fed by the unending death of the seven World Titans that reside within it without them I imagine it would just fade into non-existence because it took seven World Titans to make it a hole in the universe and it's not exactly something that can sustain itself because it's not a self perpetuating phenomenon or one that existed before the Titans died.
Edit: I would have expected for the rest of the underworld to fall into Oblivion and for both to cease to exist afterwards.
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Ghosts are still a thing in this age of the world and while they are not all bad, far from it... there is something about the manipulation of the dead, true necromancy that is cosmically misaligned lets say. Another thing you guys could investigate if you want to.
Anyway good night guys, see you tomorrow with more dark dealings in the dark.
I thought the thing with the primordials was that spirit killers blend the target and ensure it can't come back together again, but do have waste products.
It's not just that the afterlife wasn't big enough for them because it's usually for things that aren't spiritual soup. If you blended them in the wyld the same thing would happen, since whatever it is about primordials that makes them different than really big Rakasha lingers in their remains.
Which is why the exalted put them in tombs; that particular essence couldn't be anything but a primordial ever again, and you can destroy patterns/information but not actually delete essence itself. Even best case with the afterlife built with its creators in mind you'd just get new primordials instead of ones contaminated by how the originals died.
This next part is an even further stretch than the rest of this, but it's possible there's something we have that the solar host in all its glory didn't; the power of the Yozi bent towards making an exalt grow into a primordial.
Ghost eating technique takes in something, but it clearly doesn't reach the root of what primordials are or there wouldn't be any Neverborn in the first place. It's possible that this is intentional and the exaltations were trying to avoid contaminating their hosts.
Infernals very much are trying to be like primordials on a basic level though. Maybe you can't destroy the most fundamental part of their essence, but I wonder if it couldn't be cleaned up and digested into part of a new one. Especially if we're talking about a heretic infernal, who's themes are exactly feeding on tainted power and being reborn into something new.
TLDR: eating dead titans is a great idea with no downsides which shouldn't worry anyone.
It's not just that the afterlife wasn't big enough for them because it's usually for things that aren't spiritual soup. If you blended them in the wyld the same thing would happen, since whatever it is about primordials that makes them different than really big Rakasha lingers in their remains.
Which is why the exalted put them in tombs; that particular essence couldn't be anything but a primordial ever again, and you can destroy patterns/information but not actually delete essence itself. Even best case with the afterlife built with its creators in mind you'd just get new primordials instead of ones contaminated by how the originals died.
This next part is an even further stretch than the rest of this, but it's possible there's something we have that the solar host in all its glory didn't; the power of the Yozi bent towards making an exalt grow into a primordial.
Ghost eating technique takes in something, but it clearly doesn't reach the root of what primordials are or there wouldn't be any Neverborn in the first place. It's possible that this is intentional and the exaltations were trying to avoid contaminating their hosts.
Infernals very much are trying to be like primordials on a basic level though. Maybe you can't destroy the most fundamental part of their essence, but I wonder if it couldn't be cleaned up and digested into part of a new one. Especially if we're talking about a heretic infernal, who's themes are exactly feeding on tainted power and being reborn into something new.
TLDR: eating dead titans is a great idea with no downsides which shouldn't worry anyone.
It is a mix of both of those things a spirit killer does grind up a spiritual Target so it can't come together correctly again and the spiritual residue does attempt to travel the river to be reincarnated because that's what the river was made to do recycle Souls so the world Titans do not have a wide enough Lane to be reincarnated and are mutilated so badly that they cannot reform.I thought the thing with the primordials was that spirit killers blend the target and ensure it can't come back together again, but do have waste products.
It's not just that the afterlife wasn't big enough for them because it's usually for things that aren't spiritual soup. If you blended them in the wyld the same thing would happen, since whatever it is about primordials that makes them different than really big Rakasha lingers in their remains.
Which is why the exalted put them in tombs; that particular essence couldn't be anything but a primordial ever again, and you can destroy patterns/information but not actually delete essence itself. Even best case with the afterlife built with its creators in mind you'd just get new primordials instead of ones contaminated by how the originals died.
This next part is an even further stretch than the rest of this, but it's possible there's something we have that the solar host in all its glory didn't; the power of the Yozi bent towards making an exalt grow into a primordial.
Ghost eating technique takes in something, but it clearly doesn't reach the root of what primordials are or there wouldn't be any Neverborn in the first place. It's possible that this is intentional and the exaltations were trying to avoid contaminating their hosts.
Infernals very much are trying to be like primordials on a basic level though. Maybe you can't destroy the most fundamental part of their essence, but I wonder if it couldn't be cleaned up and digested into part of a new one. Especially if we're talking about a heretic infernal, who's themes are exactly feeding on tainted power and being reborn into something new.
TLDR: eating dead titans is a great idea with no downsides which shouldn't worry anyone.
the exalted didn't make the tombs the mausoleums built themselves on the edges of Oblivion the final resting places of the extremely mutilated essence of the neverborn the Labyrinth that's directly under the tombs terminate in Oblivion.
in a world without the river the spiritual residue of the dead primordials would have been scattered to the wind they wouldn't reform but they also wouldn't conglomerate like they did so there would be no Oblivion but their Essence might float directly into Mortals anyway I don't really know how it would work but without the river there's no way for the spiritual Essences of all of the never born to conglomerate and punch a hole into the world.
Edit: in a world without the River of reincarnation the shadowlands that appeared when the primordials died wouldn't be shadowlands they'd be tomb lands massive mausoleums hundreds of miles across would spring from the corpse shell of a world anyone who died there would become a ghost necrotic Essence would flow endlessly across those landscapes and you would find seven multiple Hundred Mile Long stretches of mausoleums and tombs across creation.
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Why would we ask a question that might be an Occult secret, when the same focus could be used for one that almost certainly is? We could just outright ask how the thing was made.
The communications necessary for that bunch of personal rituals to happen are exactly the sort of thing that the Archive exists to notice and prevent.
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There's the thing though the never born are dead. It is only the fact they cycle of life and death wasn't meant to contain them that they haven't cease to exist entirely. They did kill them the fact that the primordials construction of reality failed the process their massive Souls doesn't change the fact that they are dead.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
I wouldn't say "Can't do no matter what", but "Actually doing that requires more than just a single Charm, and the bar to finishing the job was sufficiently high that nobody bothered sorting that out". Especially since the Neverborn were a non-entity for most of the First Age, and even when that was changed they were an asset, with how Necromancy was invented from disturbing their tombs.
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
I think that's what the vote is saying but your right it wouldn't hurt to be more specific.
[X] Crown question. Focus: Flesh Room remains- How was this slain creature created?
[X] Ask how the odd collection got in the vampire
I don't even think it's that requires more than a single charm stuff I think it would require them giving Mercy to their enemies which considering by the time they learned all the tombs of the never-born was well into the first age that was never going to happen the great curse prevents it entirely the fact that the ancient enemies were dead and still screaming in Agony from their defeat is too sweet to the Mind corrupted by the great curse. Also the fact that the screaming got worse and the fact the agony seemingly got worse while also giving goodies if you broke into those mausoleums oh it's just too incentivized to be cruel to your former enemies in this instance.
Thats meaningless semantics. Its functionally alive and able to do things.
No, they can't actually do it. Like literally there is no evidence they can do this, just extrapolation of charms that don't work.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Again, I'm not disagreeing with you. "There's nothing canon that can do it, and no tool that can obviously sort it out." I'm just not willing to say "It's actually impossible" when the setting only nails down two things that are explicitly impossible.
"Dead is Dead, there's no take-backsies from there"
and
"No Travelling Back in Time"
That's it, those are the only two genuinely inviolate rules.
That being said, I do agree "There's nothing in the known setting that can do it." And I'm willing to go a step further and say "Actually finishing the job of properly processing the Neverborn would be a feat of magic and engineering that makes the Salinian Working look like child's play." But I'm not willing to just go "It's actually impossible." Just Arbitrarily Difficult. It might even be that Solars just can't do it, but a sufficiently advanced Abyssal could, who knows. But there's only two things that are actually straight up impossible no matter how hard you try, and sorting out the Neverborn for reals is not among them.
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Okay let me phrase it like this. If the primordials had made the river of reincarnation wide enough the never born wouldn't exist. Also the never born cannot do things by themselves at all. It is only the great Lords of death that plunge the world corpses like maggots and feast on their rotting behemoths that gave the neverborn any agency at all. The never-born are less than ghosts they are nothing a nightmare hanging over an empty Abyss screaming for an end.
The only reason they still even exist is that no one saw fit to give them the mercy of true death by further disintegrating their world Corpses and letting the spiritual residue be processed.
Actually where are you getting that from I've never seen anything that says the neverborn or primordials in general can't be killed or a very least processed out of existence.
Reincarnation is not death of the soul, just a change of the personality. A wider river doesn't kill them.
Because everyone tried and failed.
Reincarnation a very least in exalted is the death of the Soul in all the ways that matter for primordials all of your personality all of your abilities all of your Supernatural power all of them disappear when you go through the river you are left with individual Souls every single first, second and third circle soul in a primordial hierarchy would all become utethered at best becoming gods Among the millions that the primordials already made at worse just another soul in creation.
To my knowledge there was never any attempt to finish off the neverborn the primordials are dead the only primordials left are Gaia and Auto the Yozi don't even count anymore. Also would you consider something that is less than a ghost of a normal person being Not Dead because that is what the never born are they possess none of their world-shaping power anymore the only agency they have is because people have taken in their rotten flesh and even then they don't actually have any command over them. As well as the fact they cannot move or change anything about their situation.
Finally why do you assume that the primordials are indestructible in any way even though they couldn't kill each other they could still harm each other just as well they were never immune to being damaged and they were shown to be not immune to being killed either despite possessing no concept of death. So just like when you kill someone and they produce a ghost if you just go kill the ghost that's it. Except the never born are completely static implacements with no ability to think or act outside of screaming in agony. So why would you assume that anyone who wanted to kill them couldn't do so Lord knows they're not going to fight someone who's killing them they want to die.
I'm saying if you have the strength to destroy the mausoleums and The Labyrinth using Spirit killer charms you could just grind them into lesser and lesser bits until they fit it might be the work of a thousand years or 10 thousand but there's really nothing going either way it is my understanding that the never born are nothing compared to even the Yozi never mind their primordial selves.
Citatiion for this.
They had a war i am pretty sure they tried to kill them during that.
And a ghost that can try and kill you is effectively alive.
Because nothing has killed them. Its very simple logic.
No you can't. Like show me this happening.
Point of correction: The Darkhallow is an explicitly replicable ritual, that reads as a Prime/Spirit/Life ritual in Mage terms.
The recipe is out there in the hands of the Black Court, and in both Dresden and Lash's heads.
Word of Butcher was that it was one of the several powerup options that he considered for Harry during Changes.
Chitchen Itza is more of a plot device than the Darkhallow is.
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We've literally seen Listens to Wind only 3 or 4 times in the series.
We know very little about what he does, or can do, besides his being Native American, a doctor, and a shapeshifter.
I dont think we've actually seen him cast external magic that wasnt a counterspell.
And its Word of Butcher that Aleron LaFortier, the Senior Council wizard that Peabody had assassinated, could perform strategic-scale illusion magic:
Word of Butcher AMA 2019 said:jamescagney22 question said:===jimbutcher Answer said:
Source:
MY NAME IS JIM BUTCHER AND I WRITE STORIES. ASK ME ANYTHING!
1) Sleeps Loudly 2) That was where Petrovich the Earth Mage lived. He and his people were hell on wheels in a fight. Earth magic is slow and...old.reddit.com
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McCoy popping Krakatoa at a distance would have been like Forces 6/Matter 4+/Correspondence?, since we have an explicit Forces 5 Rote in Dead Magic 1 (Cuicuilco's Demise, Forces 5/Matter 4) for destroying a city next to a volcano by making the volcano erupt which requires the mage's presence and a human sacrifice.
The White Council are considered a major power(not a superpower, but a major power) in the same setting as the "I can murder the planet" Fae Courts. I dont exactly see paradox-free mages as a balance issue, since that kinda shit is an extended roll ritual casting effect.
Now its true that Dresdenverse magic doesnt translate one for one to Mage.
But for a rough equivalence, seems a useful comparison.
Its only wasteful if the process of acquiring this skill was an opportunity cost. Or if her skills could have been used elsewhere.
Mages have specialties after all; not investing in Life does not automatically mean she would have been able to raise some other Sphere to the same tier of expertise instead.
Besides, assuming that something wasnt used because it didnt happen onscreen or you didnt notice it being used is misleading.
For example, and this is just me spitballing here: Is she this good at subversion because she rolls Life/Mind rotes for pheromones and vocal control/body language when she needs to be extra persuasive, or to look approachable? A subtle mage could be running rotes all the time, and if they are internal, you'd never see it.
All I know is that she's looking very much like the narrative equivalent of Jodi Blake.
And JB was a Nephandi archmage who specialized in subtle subversion.
Im very curious about figuring out how long she's been on the scene.
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As for the comment about competence?
Im going to note that we know that Grevane was running around the world since at least 1883, and was only finally killed in 2006. The Wardens first killed Kemmler in the early 1800s according to Bob, but had to kill him six more times after that, and only managed to make it stick in 1961.
And of course the Capriocorpus has been around since before the French and Indian War of 1754-1763.
Competence does go both ways in these things.
Incompetents dont tend to live very long in this business. On either side.
And someone who subverted Las Vegas in 7 months or so has to be very competent.
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Furthermore, if she is Life 6 (as opposed to borrowing the power of a patron, which is also possible), we dont know how she came about it. Could have been an investment of knowledge and skill, like Yama Kings can do for Exalts or akuma.
Or could have been a gradual improvement of her skills over decades or even centuries of life.
I mean, do we even know how old Sandra Marling is? Really?
She looked early middle-aged in Chicago to Dresden, but with magic in play that means nothing. Even mortals can look that way with makeup and styling. So do two hundred plus year old Dresdenverse wizards.
And if she's good with Life magic, she can ratchet her apparent age up and down at will.
I mean, the woman was enrolled as a UNLV undergrad with 18-20ish year old college freshmen and not looking out of place, so I assume she doesnt look early 40s anymore.
Add to this the fact that its not like she exactly has a reliable home base to go back to, and self-reliance would be mandatory.
Life magic is how you dont die when you cant call for medevac, and cant afford to have spirits around that know you can use magic or can remember what your magic feels like.
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Someone gattai'd that vampire with a bunch of others into a flesh garden and preserved its sapience in doing so.
Thats a Life 6 effect.
Either Sandra did it, or she(or, to be fair, a subordinate is also possible)channelled the power of her patrons to do so.
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Hun souls gathered by Heaven pass through Lethe on their way to a new destination, and it's my understanding that even to the gods this is largely a black box of a process; they don't really understand how it works nor can fully tangibly identify mechanisms involved in it. It's connected enough to the Celestial Bureaucracy that there's some level of process by which the destination of a particular soul can be influenced (this can be found in things like one of the Sidereal Resplendencies or the whole idea in Lands of Creation that the Solar Deliberative legislated for favourable reincarnation to be granted to those whose lives were lost in their service or to their indulgences), but I get the impression that is also something where they don't quite get where those instructions are going or how they're being processed.
Which means if you are let's say an entity that has hundreds of hun Souls which are the thinking Souls essentially like say a primordial and you die for real and get past the lethe all of your individual hun souls are now free floating in the hands of the Gods sure it's going through a device they don't fully understand but it's still individual Souls which means all of that Essence and Might also disappear because that's what happens to exalted when they die they don't get to keep their Essence score in a new life. Before you say that the essence score comes from the exaltation that is fundamentally not true the death Lord still have the essence from when they were alive because they are ghosts and every ghost that we see of an Exalt that isn't a death Lord still has their Essence score minus one which means death peels one Essence off of you but reincarnation takes it all.
Where you getting the idea that never born can attempt to kill anyone. The never-born can't do anything they can't kill anyone. They function as batteries to the death Lords. They have no will they cannot move they can't strike anyone.
The never-born are dead more than pretty much any ghost is as well. I'm going to need you to show me any sign of actual life from the never born that isn't them interacting with beings that are essentially drinking their corpses.
I do have to reiterate none of the rituals or spells you are saying requires any level of arch sphere. Even the vampire still only requires Life 5. Popping a volcano from a distance still not even Force 5 it's just force 3 with matter 3 and correspondence possibly also three maybe two if you're feeling generous. Spheres are meant to represent capability and mastery of manipulating areas of reality you gain the power by increasing Arete or casting in ritual you really really shouldn't use archpheres just full representations of power when that is not what the Spheres are supposed to do. Forces is a minor exception but even then it's still grants more capability than it does outright might Mastery over the forces of reality rather than having a bigger hammer.
Supposition at best. And the primordials hun soul is their fetch soul. That is what determines their personality and such. We know they are fine loosing those.
Yeah because they lost the war and are stuck in the underworld. The infernal primoridals cannot do that as well.
What??? They are interacting with those guys. They don't happen by accidents, they give the abyssal exaltations as well or at least stole them and reprogrammed them.