Shards of a Broken Sun [Megaten/Shugo Chara/Exalted]

That is the reason why I put in the caveat "Without telling her anything about the Scavengers" in the vote. That was implicitly meant to include anything about the house they were going to visit, not just the occupants.

In fact, I would've written the vote to say exactly: "Request a reading with the question: 'Will Midori Hinamori be safe if she were to come along with Amu to the house they plan on visiting shortly?'"

Except I remember being told to not be so specific with wording and that one should allow Amu to use her good judgment when it comes to these matters. So I just went with the broad "anything about the Scavengers" instead.

I have faith that Amu will not be so obtuse as to give her the exact address. And that if it results in an unclear reading, so be it.
I see where you are coming from, but there's a few bits I disagree with.

1: Publicity Bane might screw us there. We have things working against us, on a meta-narrative level, to expose things.
I'm against giving it this good a chance when the precog in question gets, as you've pointed out, quite a bit of detail.

2: We can check if the house is empty before doing this. If we check with mental scan and its empty, then we have no need to involve her and take that risk at all.
I don't see a reason to not to do the lowest cost thing first. It only means telling Midori, and she is going to find out anyway. At realistic worst case she gets a penalty on social rolls vs Naomi, and stunt + willpower can be used to parlay that.

3: Naomi is going to see it as betraying/exposing, I think, even with that little amount of detail.
She doesn't seem especially prone to details on the topic.
 
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Number 3 is kinda moot if Naomi really ordered the Scavengers to ghost Amu, since it means she's already made up her mind on the matter. Her further yelling at Amu for asking someone to use precognition on their house out of worry that they got attacked, just makes her sound even more unhinged and ungrateful. The detail wouldn't matter to her - but with luck, Aoi and Yui (and maybe Mimi) would take a different view on the matter. Chances go up if it makes Amu start crying on the spot (but no, don't worry, I don't plan on voting for a nervous breakdown in front of them).

Number 2, no need to retread everything that's been said, basically comes down to whether you believe ignorant Midori will perform better in front of the crowd than fully-briefed Midori.

As for Number 1, the effects would completely depend on what Saeki sees. At the worst, she might find out the address of the house and their faces, but Manticore already know their faces. And honestly, the Scavengers should probably be moving house anyway - Amu herself had been visiting prior to the demon attack and if anybody remembered seeing her go there before, the Bane might allow those reporters to find out and also start sniffing around.

If they haven't already.
 
Number 3 is kinda moot if Naomi really ordered the Scavengers to ghost Amu, since it means she's already made up her mind on the matter. Her further yelling at Amu for asking someone to use precognition on their house out of worry that they got attacked, just makes her sound even more unhinged and ungrateful. The detail wouldn't matter to her - but with luck, Aoi and Yui (and maybe Mimi) would take a different view on the matter. Chances go up if it makes Amu start crying on the spot (but no, don't worry, I don't plan on voting for a nervous breakdown in front of them).

Number 2, no need to retread everything that's been said, basically comes down to whether you believe ignorant Midori will perform better in front of the crowd than fully-briefed Midori.

As for Number 1, the effects would completely depend on what Saeki sees. At the worst, she might find out the address of the house and their faces, but Manticore already know their faces. And honestly, the Scavengers should probably be moving house anyway - Amu herself had been visiting prior to the demon attack and if anybody remembered seeing her go there before, the Bane might allow those reporters to find out and also start sniffing around.

If they haven't already.
Well, no.
If we are scrying to see if there's danger, at worst she sees Midori getting killed/tasered by Manticore, or getting mind crushed by Naomi.
Or the entire place exploding from trip wires as they enter.
Or nothing, as secret camera's record Amu and Midori visiting an empty house, because psionics can't scan for that.
(She could also just be wrong, as Baughn has pointed out that precog is no longer reliable)

If the worst she could see was their faces and address, then there would be no incentive to scry.

This kind of proves my point though.
Saeki doesn't offer any advantage other than a coin flip of whether ignorance or informed is better, and how the other Scavengers see it.
Avoiding informing Midori is a coinflip of whether informed gives enough bonuses to offset the penalties of betrayal.
It also relies on betrayal 'magnitude' being meaningfully different between the two. Bringing her at all is the biggest part of the betrayal, not how much information she has.

So why should we invoke Saeki before doing a mental scan?

That's my last question on the topic, since most of the rest comes down to opinion, what is the hard advantage of involving Saeki before doing a simple mental scan of the house to check if they are there or not?
We've agreed that ignorant could be good or bad, we've agreed that Midori will learn everything in the end either way, and Baughn has confirmed we can scan from a safe range.

EDIT: Also, again, I'm not entirely comfortable with the discrediting plan. That seems like it leads to a dead Naomi, and that isn't something Amu wants.
 
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If the worst she can see is their faces and address, then there would be no incentive to scry.
Worst, in terms of potential risk to the Scavengers. And that should also only happen in the event the Scavengers are there and they actually manage to visit them.

If she sees nothing there and nobody answering, there's nothing to tell.

If she saw Midori getting killed by Manticore and bombs and armed men there, we're immediately blowing the lid to Midori and it means the Scavengers are in trouble. In this case, they won't begrudge us telling Saeki if it helps us bail them out - in fact, we would probably then also be asking Saeki for further help in locating them to pinpoint where they're being held or will be moved to in the future (though she wouldn't be our only source of information, since we know precognition is unreliable).

If she saw Midori getting mind-crushed by Kana or choked by Naomi or something.

Well **** the Scavengers, anybody who is going to try and kill our mother deserves to have their secrets spilled to Saeki.
 
Worst, in terms of potential risk to the Scavengers. And that should also only happen in the event the Scavengers are there and they actually manage to visit them.

If she sees nothing there and nobody answering, there's nothing to tell.

If she saw Midori getting killed by Manticore and bombs and armed men there, we're immediately blowing the lid to Midori and it means the Scavengers are in trouble. In this case, they won't begrudge us telling Saeki if it helps us bail them out - in fact, we would probably then also be asking Saeki for further help in locating them to pinpoint where they're being held or will be moved to in the future (though she wouldn't be our only source of information, since we know precognition is unreliable).

If she saw Midori getting mind-crushed by Kana or choked by Naomi or something.

Well **** the Scavengers, anybody who is going to try and kill our mother deserves to have their secrets spilled to Saeki.
That's not answering the question of why not mental range check first.

Unless we think that sort of assault is high enough likelihood that taking Midori within 3km is a risk, but I don't think we do.
 
That's not answering the question of why not mental range check first.
EDIT: Also, again, I'm not entirely comfortable with the discrediting plan. That seems like it leads to a dead Naomi, and that isn't something Amu wants.
Can only be done if we tell all to Midori first.

And I feel that having her ignorant if she needs to argue with Naomi leads to more trust gained with the rest of the Scavengers then if Amu broke her promise and Midori knew everything already when it happened. I get that you don't feel it would make enough difference to matter, but I already outlined why I felt it would work better a few posts ago.

Ideally, discrediting Naomi won't lead her to being completely alienated by the rest of the crew, just an acknowledgement that she was perhaps overly paranoid in regards to Amu and opens the Scavengers up as a whole to the idea that Amu and people Amu brings over can be trusted.

Which, you know, is kinda a pre-requisite for suggesting that she introduce them to Hotsuin.
 
Can only be done if we tell all to Midori first.

And I feel that having her ignorant if she needs to argue with Naomi leads to more trust gained with the rest of the Scavengers then if Amu broke her promise and Midori knew everything already when it happened. I get that you don't feel it would make enough difference to matter, but I already outlined why I felt it would work better a few posts ago.

Ideally, discrediting Naomi won't lead her to being completely alienated by the rest of the crew, just an acknowledgement that she was perhaps overly paranoid in regards to Amu and opens the Scavengers up as a whole to the idea that Amu and people Amu brings over can be trusted.

Which, you know, is kinda a pre-requisite for suggesting that she introduce them to Hotsuin.
So to clarify, you think having Saeki precog them is going to be seen as less of a betrayal than telling Midori more than where they live and what we already have about Kana?
 
So to clarify, you think having Saeki precog them is going to be seen as less of a betrayal than telling Midori more than where they live and what we already have about Kana?
Yeah - especially if they knew Amu only did it because she was worried they got attacked and wanted to check for potential enemies there.

That is the kind of paranoia-driven logic you'd expect Naomi should understand (except she'd also not care, if she was that untrusting).
 
Yeah - especially if they knew Amu only did it because she was worried they got attacked and wanted to check for potential enemies there.

That is the kind of paranoia-driven logic you'd expect Naomi should understand (except she'd also not care, if she was that untrusting).
Right then, we just disagree on what is the most likely to set her off.

Because the idea that someone can just scry her location / when she is home sounds like the ultimate paranoia fuel for Naomi.
It would be for me.

Edit: and it's more people than the minimum necessary.
 
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Because the idea that someone can just scry her location / when she is home sounds like the ultimate paranoia fuel for Naomi.
It would be for me.
If Aoi really is using Clairvoyance to navigate, Naomi should already be aware of the existence of abilities that can scry from a distance.

...Actually, it doesn't matter exactly how Aoi is doing it - we know for a fact she can spy on people taking a piss remotely. Naomi should fully expect there might be more people who can do the same. If she's that paranoid, I'd be truly surprised if the notion never occured to her.

Leaving all this aside though (and I think I might've mentioned this before), I honestly expect that house to be 100% completely empty.

Especially since the QM dropped that helpful tidbit about how many ranks in Investigation Amu's parents have.

That's the most likely outcome I'm feeling.
 
I dunno, I personally consider extending the end date to "heat death of the universe" timespans to be a pretty good effort.

Or just, you know, just rebuilding it the way it was prior to ending, minus the underlying problem.
 
I dunno, I personally consider extending the end date to "heat death of the universe" timespans to be a pretty good effort.

Or just, you know, just rebuilding it the way it was prior to ending, minus the underlying problem.
The underlying problem is the Great Will. If we ever manage to find a solution for that, I don't think we'll need to worry about sending our friends to France.
 
I see, so @Nero200 and @PistachioCookies really want to inform others of things. I brought this up before, but I really do not see a reason to do this. There's a trivial easy solution to get around it by just declaring it a secret that she promised to keep and that she's going no matter what because she's concerned for her friend. And only unreasonable parents would not understand that some times people pick up some kind of promises like that and that they want to look out for a friend. Also reasonable parents understand that keeping ones word is an actually important thing.

And in a story and character perspective, I do not think as such that giving Amu a personality where she so easily breaks her word is a good thing. I think there should be more cause given for that then just that some unknown reason for no communication and her mother pressing her a bit. That kind of an indecisive and weak willed type of personality would struggle with future challenges and truthfully goes a bit against her magical girl quirks.

I don't really like that narrative as such, I don't think we should be going for such a narrative and there is no reason to do so. Because the risks imagines are really just overly imagined worst case scenarios, when Amu can easily just scan the area beforehand and really Manticore can't just disappear her, she's a person of public interest and has direct connections to the top of a government organization like JP. Unless she does something particularly foolish she is most likely nearly untouchable for them as a org themselves.


As such I find the proposed votes not acceptable as they come from faulty premises. And will as such make this alternate vote.


[X] Plan Keep the Secret
-[X] Tell your mother that it's a secret you promised to keep and so you shouldn't just give it away just because you haven't heard from your friend for a rather long time. How ever you are worried for your friend and so you are going to check up on her even if she won't agree or won't give permission, Friends are more important then that after all.
--[X] Calm yourself a bit, and bring up that there doesn't have to be that much risk. That they had some bad experience with strangers and are now very wary about them, but they are fine with people they know well enough.
---[X] Suggest that you can use your psychic power to get a good look from outside though, so it's not like you even there is any real risk. And if mom wanted to help you with a light disguise so journalists there isn't really much to worry about at all. You could also keep her on the phone if that would make things easier for her.
----[X] If any further good ideas come up that don't break the promise, you can consider those as well of course. But you can't possibly not check on your friend if she might be in trouble.






I think something like that would already be perfectly functional and pretty close in safety to the other suggestions. Except she didn't have to break the promise at all and you didn't break any trust with ones parent. I really think the discussion got way to stuck in pondering absolute worst case scenarios that have very little probability and take on far more unwanted things to only partially counter the worst case imagined risks then is worth it.

Me, I prefer a some what more decisive and trustworthy Amu myself, that is the kind of narrative for Amu that I'd want to see going forward. It also just seems more interesting as a story overall versus the overly easily browbeaten and scared Amu.
 
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Me, I prefer a some what more decisive and trustworthy Amu myself, that is the kind of narrative for Amu that I'd want to see going forward. It also just seems more interesting as a story overall versus the overly easily browbeaten and scared Amu.
Following a promise made under duress, to me, is being easily browbeaten and socially pressured into doing things.
In this case, it's characterising it as specifically because of worrying about Naomi's reaction.
Being decisive and trustworthy is good, but sticking to a promise that was made under some level of threat isn't.

And doing so will cost some level of Midori's opinion in Amu.
Ideally we would grab Utau, but we aren't doing that because....

Why aren't we at least checking if Utau's available, again?
Considering she's already more in the know than anyone but Amu/Miki?
 
Following a promise made under duress, to me, is being easily browbeaten and socially pressured into doing things.
I don't consider that as a promise that much under duress really. Instead it was Amu promising vastly more then she ever had to, because she sucks at social in the end. As such it's a foolish promise, yes, but the current situation doesn't actually warrant breaking it when the current situation isn't all that serious yet. One can renegotiate it at a some what later date, depending in part on how things are looking at the scavengers. For all we know the situation is such that one then and there decided to involve JP to resolve some kind of running problem. But there isn't a need in my opinion to preemptively break the promise as such, I think that's to rushed when one can just handle things easily enough with a slightly different course.


Still the continuing issues with social that Amu has, kind of make one wonder if something might need to be done about it really. She doesn't need to be a master social person, but her fumbles are pretty painful at times.
 
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There's a trivial easy solution to get around it by just declaring it a secret that she promised to keep and that she's going no matter what because she's concerned for her friend. And only unreasonable parents would not understand that some times people pick up some kind of promises like that and that they want to look out for a friend. Also reasonable parents understand that keeping ones word is an actually important thing.
We already tried that approach back in Chapter 2.1.

The exact line back in that vote was:
--[X] Explain that your friend has personal circumstances that you promised not to disclose to anyone without permission.
It resulted in a Manipulation + Socialize roll that predictably failed, due to having a grand total of 1 dice.

I definitely wasn't the only one surprised that it needed a roll. This was all back on page 52 of the thread, we actually got given an opportunity to change our vote after finding out that it needed dice, but stuck with it anyway.

Now, we've additionally been told that the reason Midori is being so pushy is because it's part of the Publicity Bane:
Since it's come to this, I can let you in on a little secret about the 'publicity' bane: It adds very little publicity. What it did, instead, was remove the 'masquerade' trope. Cameras work, adults aren't idiots, and in general you can't rely on magical girl tropes letting children do their own thing.
Seems we can't actually get away with just insisting we made a promise without rolling dice - note that most of the default options we were given where we try to talk her out of asking aren't even flat difficulties to pass, but contested rolls by Midori.

So the action you're voting for would I think probably require, at best, a Charisma + Socialize roll, contested by Midori who has at least 2 Socialize and 2 in whatever-physical-stat she chooses to back it up.

And even if it passes, there's a chance Midori would likely keep being concerned and get increasingly desperate:
This is the first time she's impeding us, but it's also a tipping point. If we alienate Midori now, she probably won't stop her efforts but also get increasingly desperate and unpredictable.
Similarly, publicity: Yeah, on its own that was supposed to be bad publicity. There's a lot to pick from, and it wouldn't take much warping—really, none at all!—for a reporter to write a hit piece on Amu and her friends. Add in a few more misfortunate interactions, and she'd be in a very bad spot indeed. Midori and Tsumugu would still be on Amu's side, because I'm not sure they're capable of anything else, but their stance would also be what you're only worried might happen now. It's very much in gamut, mind you. It's not locked in by way of Bane, not that it ever would have been, but all the lack of Bane there means is you have fair odds of avoiding it.
As a result, I don't feel comfortable trying to engage in social combat with Midori here.

Even if this course of action doesn't involve Mind Control or directly lying to her, even if it works in the short-term, there will probably be a next time we need to do it again and I expect it will just make things worse in the long-term.
 
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[X] Plan Keep the Secret
-[X] Tell your mother that it's a secret you promised to keep and so you shouldn't just give it away just because you haven't heard from your friend for a rather long time. How ever you are worried for your friend and so you are going to check up on her even if she won't agree or won't give permission, Friends are more important then that after all.
--[X] Suggest that you can use your psychic power to get a good look from outside though, so it's not like you even there is any real risk. And if mom wanted to help you with a light disguise so journalists there isn't really much to worry about at all. You could also keep her on the phone if that would make things easier for her.
---[X] If any further good ideas come up that don't break the promise, you can consider those as well of course. But you can't possibly not check on your friend if she might be in trouble.
This would be along the lines of the following baseline option, then:
[ ] Explain that you have a 'radar' ability, to check inside without actually entering. This is true, and if it's empty you won't have to enter, right?
- Prepare for another argument if there
is a danger inside, because you aren't going to be able to leave it alone at that point.
- [ ] Get Miki on side by promising (telepathically) that you will let her scout
invisibly if there's a need?

I agree that the risks of the visit are overblown. I blame the characters for doing that, especially Miki - if she hadn't presented the trip as a suicide mission, we wouldn't be having this problem. Mom agreed to the trip, knowing she had only limited info, before Miki did that.

Now that Amu and Miki themselves have played up the risk so much, they've sabotaged their own chances of convincing Midori that they can manage the risk, and endangered Midori's trust. Full disclosure is a way to reestablish trust with Midori, and let her make an informed decision, at the risk of angering Naomi.

For the approach you're taking to work, I think Amu needs to be clear that the previous portrayal of the risks came from a place of panic and worry, not from a realistic assessment of the risks. That means Amu needs to get out of her current emotional state and into a state where she can assess things rationally.

If Amu is still overcome with worry, Midori will recognize that, and will believe Amu is hiding the true risks. If Amu is calm and genuinely confident, for good reason, that she can get in and out safely, she has a much better chance of convincing Midori to look past the previous portrayal of the risks.

I don't like the odds of Amu calming down spontaneously. I'd suggest putting in something explicit about calming down and reassessing. Blow WP and/or have Amu regulate her hormones manually if she has to.
 
Being fair, Amu probably is legitimately imagining the risks involved. Her concern is that something has happened to them, meaning she's probably thinking of men in suits with guns, or whatever Manticore wears that she saw in Kana's memories. And also imagining the Scavengers being dead.

To say she's not thinking of all that would likely be a lie.

Using Biokinesis to fake calmness would still require engaging in social combat, just with different stats (probably Performance rather than Socialize, which she still has no ranks in).

Reminder that at this point in time, a vote to make her have a nervous breakdown would result in a genuine nervous breakdown. Her anxiety and fear is real.
 
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It resulted in a Manipulation + Socialize roll that predictably failed, due to having a grand total of 1 dice.

I definitely wasn't the only one surprised that it needed a roll. This was all back on page 52 of the thread, we actually got given an opportunity to change our vote after finding out that it needed dice, but stuck with it anyway.

Now, we've additionally been told that the reason Midori is being so pushy is because it's part of the Publicity Bane:
That's for an explanation more or less though. In my case I'm just moving more to a No, there won't be an explanation because it was promised not to. And also I'm going permission or not.

That is a very different kind of dynamic, so if that was rolled for, I would kind of feel like I'd need to ask what the bases was for that from the author.

This would be along the lines of the following baseline option, then:
It's similar to that one, yes.
I don't like the odds of Amu calming down spontaneously. I'd suggest putting in something explicit about calming down and reassessing. Blow WP and/or have Amu regulate her hormones manually if she has to.

I guess one could try to make some kind of explicit line for it. I don't suppose you already have a particular idea on how to do this?
 
I guess one could try to make some kind of explicit line for it. I don't suppose you already have a particular idea on how to do this?
Would be Biokinesis probably, but again, you're likely looking at dice rolls for it.

She'd essentially be faking calm to try and put on a front for her mother. It certainly wouldn't be her honest, natural reaction to everything that's happening.
 
That's for an explanation more or less though. In my case I'm just moving more to a No, there won't be an explanation because it was promised not to. And also I'm going permission or not.
That's trading her relationship with her mother, in exchange for keeping the Scavengers' trust.

Midori would definitely get upset with Amu if she got told "I'm not saying and you can't stop me" just after she threatened to ground Amu unless she gave her a real explanation.

I refuse to believe there isn't a way for us to maintain both sets of relationships. My own voteplan may not be perfect, but at least it tries.
 
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