BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
Too bad we can't just use the Crown to ask who knows about the Crown haha. Pretty sure that falls under the "asking the Crown about itself" issue.
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
........ Uju, the fundamental problem with your argument is that you are misreading what I have posted. It does not state similar role to Uriel or performing a similar function to Uriel. It is explicit below.
That Butcher is stating that their power is on a similar Level to Uriel. Not their role or there purpose but their power. There is no room for interpretation to what was stated.
Furthermore, that Dresden faced a walker does not mean he faced the complete entity. Recall that even beings such as Odin can be divided into differing fragments by Dresden with Demonereach where he can trap the Santa part of Odin and release another part from prison. Along with the fact that Uriel himself comes through the form of miniscule fragments as well to do his duties in the smaller scale. Making it trivial for the opposition to also do so for their operations.
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The good that exalts can hypothetically do isn't in question. The point is that the exaltations are looking for heroic qualities in the classical sense. We're talking about reaching blind into a jar and pulling out what's either candy or cyanide.
The claim that they aren't dangerous or are by default peaceful is laughable. Exalts are above everything else powerful. Even if they aren't a combat build the ability to cause great change is by default the ability to cause great harm.
From an IC perspective the first breakout going to Molly was the luckiest fluke Uriel ever stumbled into. Not that she's the only trustworthy person, but that this sort of power went to someone relatively reasonable with it in the first place.
What's the going rate on cold fusion to mega-Kemmlers? How much of the infrastructure protecting reality are solaroids allowed to destroy in ignorance due to feuds with the fey while they get their shit together? What happens when they start turning their hands to mortal society, trying to make it fit their sensibilities regardless of what anyone else thinks?
To me the consequences of this are excruciatingly clear. Hundreds of variably informed people will lash out and cause chaos as they try to push their agendas, breaking who knows what as they do. Some of that will be from people trying to do good things, but that doesn't guarantee much.
The Masquerade, for example, is a pretty shitty thing for mortals. That doesn't mean some stubborn solar testing it down wouldn't be risking supernatural fueled ww3 in doing so.
Even if it did go the way you and @Yog are suggesting you'd just end up with an autocracy of the exalted by default.
Better hope that the Indian exalt you mentioned isn't one of the people who likes the caste system, cause there's nothing making one more likely than the other and the people who live there are going to be stuck with whoever they draw for a while.
We can make things better without handing out nukes to whoever's available and hoping they decide to use them for civic engineering.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Well if you go by the ExWod game doc the most likely people to get Solar Exaltion are people who just heroicly killed a vampire against all odds and are now going to have to desperately try and keep their heads above water as all their friends come for revenge.
All new Exalted are people with some connection to the supernatural.
All new Exalted are people with some connection to the supernatural.
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
It makes sense from a narrative standpoint aswell. Power has purpose in this setting so why would the Archangels have galaxy busting power with no galaxy level enemies. The Outsiders are the only known explanation for that in canon.. unless you count the Fallen I guess?
[X] [MEDIUM DISCLOSURE]
Ivy's job is important, but her interests aren't completely the same ours and this isn't a safe place. We've slipped up before, but slipping up even more after people have more reason to look at us isn't helpful.
Remember that as the Archive she's being ridden by an ancient construct whose goal is to win the oblivion war. To that end it's going to do whatever it thinks is most effective even if it's bad for us. Moreover, our ability to do things like ask "what are the names of everything the Archive has successfully driven from memory?" Makes us an immediate existential threat to her duties.
We wouldn't willingly do that, but she can't be sure about that or that we couldn't be made to under strenuous enough circumstances.
She'd basically have to start looking for ways to control or counter us. Probably leaning towards control since Molly is basically the best informational warfare weapon on the planet and her job is all about who knows what.
Let's not put Ivy in that position, or ourselves in one where we need to move to counter her.
Ivy's job is important, but her interests aren't completely the same ours and this isn't a safe place. We've slipped up before, but slipping up even more after people have more reason to look at us isn't helpful.
Remember that as the Archive she's being ridden by an ancient construct whose goal is to win the oblivion war. To that end it's going to do whatever it thinks is most effective even if it's bad for us. Moreover, our ability to do things like ask "what are the names of everything the Archive has successfully driven from memory?" Makes us an immediate existential threat to her duties.
We wouldn't willingly do that, but she can't be sure about that or that we couldn't be made to under strenuous enough circumstances.
She'd basically have to start looking for ways to control or counter us. Probably leaning towards control since Molly is basically the best informational warfare weapon on the planet and her job is all about who knows what.
Let's not put Ivy in that position, or ourselves in one where we need to move to counter her.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
It seems worth telling Ivy mostly because it really unlikely that we can keep our crown a secret from her. She might even already know. Also she is better at keeping secrets then just about everyone else in the setting.
[X] [MEDIUM DISCLOSURE]
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
From who she believes secrets need to be kept from sure. That is up to her descretion who needs to know and who doesn't once we tell her. You do not keep secrets by giving them away whenever convenient. Why can't we keep the Crown a secret from her? We haven't told anyone dumb enough to write that down and everyone who we have told knows about how the Archive works I believe.
Also full disclosure even if the exact details remain unknown, I fully expect the Crown to become common knowledge amongst the Supernatural community at some point down the line. The goal is that by the time that happens we are already too powerful for it to really matter.
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fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
She also sees electronic records. But she doesn't really need know the details to very quickly figure out that we have an overpowered source of divination. There are just too many times where we go from knowing nothing to suddenly knowing everything and changing our behavior accordingly.
Edit: Well I suppose she could think we exist in some sort of loophole allowing Angels to whisper in our ears, but that comes to the same thing.
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That doesn't mean giving more details is free.
Confirmation from us has significantly greater clarity than what she can guess and there's no reason to believe Ivy knows too much right now.
We really don't want to put her in a position where her mantle is riding Ivy to spend her resources preparing to fight us. Best case scenario she never feels the need to use it, but even that is wasting her time and energy. Worst case we do something, or an opponent sets it up to look like we did, that's just a hair too far for the Archive and end up getting into some level of conflict with each other.
- Location
- United Kingdom
[X] [MEDIUM DISCLOSURE]
@BronzeTongue I don't know where you're getting the idea that they select for classical Heroism
rather than Just greatness Exultations select for classical Heroism in exalted Because it's a classicle setting a literal bronze age setting. They do just select for greatness, though And well, anyone who's read the first Harry Potter book knows how that is.
So where are the wizards when mega Hemmler shows up? Because we show up as inherently evil, do to our aura. None of the other exalts are actually any quieter metaphysically speaking the glowing pillars of sunlight ,The endless siren song of death.
So we're back to which one is it are Exalts So powerful as to run around unchallenged or do they have peers that will monitor them and act when they do crazy shit?
The fairies are necessary evil, but they do not need to be faffing around in the real world. If they piss off an exalt in the real world Enough that he chases them into the never never. They fucking deserve whatever happens to them. Because as we see the fey Are sadistic murderers who will wear your skin like a coat? If a winter Fay pisses off a exult by skinning their Ma, they deserve what they get. If a summer Fay, pisses often exalt by raping their sister, they deserve what they get. Because that is what has to happen for someone to chase someone over a fucking world boundery. And there are only 6 irreplaceable Fay. Mother's the Queen's in the ladies. Every noble can be changed every peasant can be exchanged. They are the only ones who actually matter to the keystones of reality and guess what? They're not the ones fucking around in reality.
Turning their hands to the mortal world. You mean turning the hands to the world that humans are supposed to rule that they are right. So they are either opposed or they are not. If they are going through illegitimate means like using their very obvious supernatural abilities that shine to the heavens every time they're active. Yeah, they'll probably be intercepted interfered with or otherwise blockaded. Should they go through proper channels? They'll probably win that's not an autocracy. That's being a rightfully elected individual.
The only reason I argue so much for this. It's because, unlike in exalted, there are at least tens of thousands of peer Level individuals in the white council. The extend all over the planet. Never mind the abundant like near human Supernaturals that are also peers the idea That exalts will be able to just run roughshod Over everyone and everything is insanely apauling.
rather than Just greatness Exultations select for classical Heroism in exalted Because it's a classicle setting a literal bronze age setting. They do just select for greatness, though And well, anyone who's read the first Harry Potter book knows how that is.
So where are the wizards when mega Hemmler shows up? Because we show up as inherently evil, do to our aura. None of the other exalts are actually any quieter metaphysically speaking the glowing pillars of sunlight ,The endless siren song of death.
So we're back to which one is it are Exalts So powerful as to run around unchallenged or do they have peers that will monitor them and act when they do crazy shit?
The fairies are necessary evil, but they do not need to be faffing around in the real world. If they piss off an exalt in the real world Enough that he chases them into the never never. They fucking deserve whatever happens to them. Because as we see the fey Are sadistic murderers who will wear your skin like a coat? If a winter Fay pisses off a exult by skinning their Ma, they deserve what they get. If a summer Fay, pisses often exalt by raping their sister, they deserve what they get. Because that is what has to happen for someone to chase someone over a fucking world boundery. And there are only 6 irreplaceable Fay. Mother's the Queen's in the ladies. Every noble can be changed every peasant can be exchanged. They are the only ones who actually matter to the keystones of reality and guess what? They're not the ones fucking around in reality.
Turning their hands to the mortal world. You mean turning the hands to the world that humans are supposed to rule that they are right. So they are either opposed or they are not. If they are going through illegitimate means like using their very obvious supernatural abilities that shine to the heavens every time they're active. Yeah, they'll probably be intercepted interfered with or otherwise blockaded. Should they go through proper channels? They'll probably win that's not an autocracy. That's being a rightfully elected individual.
The only reason I argue so much for this. It's because, unlike in exalted, there are at least tens of thousands of peer Level individuals in the white council. The extend all over the planet. Never mind the abundant like near human Supernaturals that are also peers the idea That exalts will be able to just run roughshod Over everyone and everything is insanely apauling.
Like right now you have autocracy of Red Court in South America, Autocracy of White Court in parts of USA and Europe, Autocracy of Jade Court (or outright Yama Kings) in China and other parts of Asia, and, above all, wizard autocracies all over.
This assumption of a negative default outcome completely ignores Molly's continuous presence in the setting, White God's continuous presence in the setting, White Council's continuous presence in the setting.
It ignores not only any and all preparations that we can and should make before opening the vault, but also any and all actions we can make afterwards. Would this be time-consuming? Hell yeah, I fully expect the next one or two turns game turns after breaking open the vault at least to be fully consumed by dealing with the released exaltations. Is this doable? Also yes, especially if we are not acting alone, but have previously released infernal exaltations one by one and thus have like-minded infernals running around, and have found abyssal exaltations (and possibly redeemed a few of those back into solars), and have prepared with the fey, and others.
You're painting on context you'd prefer where there isn't any. Exalts are paragons of ability, not virtue or wisdom. That lack is a key part of their narrative. Solars have a caste you can qualify for as a criminal, lunars one for liars, and so on.
Autochthon didn't read Harry Potter before forging the celestials.
We're not back to anything, you're just being obtuse. The exalted are very powerful and have a lot of far reaching abilities that allow them outsized influence on the setting. They also grow in power very quickly and unpredictably, making them difficult to notice or counter before they get dangerous.
For a topical example of this phenomenon, consider that we could very nearly null all the progress team Archive have made over the entire Oblivion War with a single question. If we asked for a list of names for the people the Archive as forced out of memory we'd either be able to directly barter from a position of strength with them or come within a few additional questions of doing so.
Obviously this is a terrible idea in multiple ways and we shouldn't do it, but it illustrates the point. A selfish exalt can just do things that destroy millennia of effort.
This doesn't mean they're unbeatable. Molly could have done this at any point she had a focus, but the archive could have turned her inside out at the start of the game. This wouldn't have undone the damage if our hypothetical evil!Molly quest counterparts had been even a little bit clever about what they tried before getting caught.
As they get stronger this sort of capability becomes more common and the things that can take them down become rarer. Especially if you don't want that fight to have collateral damage itself. They don't necessarily need to accomplish their goals to ruin everyone's year trying.
That's just covering the extreme end of things. If you just want to be a selfish asshole you can get away with a lot before you get stomped. Marcone for example is by many measures a good candidate for exaltation, but he's a shitty person who'd enrich himself at the expense and pain of others before anything else.
They don't need to be invincible and all powerful to be a huge problem.
The fey were just an illustration of a place where an exalt could easily have themselves a righteous crusade that is actively counterproductive, it's not the only one.
The fey shouldn't be allowed free rein, but you don't need exalts to handle them.
The issue I was trying to point out with the mortal world bit is that not everyone has the same moral code, or even strongly cares about that sort of thing in the first place. 300-700 randomly selected god-kings imposing their rules isn't exactly a great direction for humanity to turn towards.
As I've previously pointed out, this whole "they'll probably be oppressed" thing isn't an answer because it isn't guaranteed to work and even when it does there are still consequences. In terms of the legitimate route, you're literally asking for an honest politician from a group of people who have less need than almost anyone else to tell the truth. Even if they are that sort of influence isn't exactly implicitly good.
A real social exalt is spectacularly unfair, and what you're suggesting is hoping they not only have strong morals but that they fall into something you find acceptable. That's a very specific requirement, and I don't think you're really considering the consequences of any deviation from what you're hoping for.
If we want to help humanity we should do it by changing what we can personally and then pushing everyone else to slowly get strong enough to stop being cattle. See things like our magic resistant tank designs or the conversations on an enhanced paranet.
On the last bit; there aren't tens of thousands of peer level entities running around on earth. Molly could kill fey middle-to-upper management day one and she wasn't even built as an optimized combat character.
You're acting like exalts are both strong enough to solve all your problems and weak enough that they can't cause trouble. If that was the case nothing would change because the existing players would soak their damage and move on.
The ability to make great change is the same thing as the ability to cause great harm.
The critical flaw of this plan is that it denies the opposition, who is in position of power right now, any agency. They aren't stupid either. When faced with a prospect of long-term slow decline from a position of power, you get Pearl Harbors, Russia-Ukraine war and other similar violent outcomes. Don't just stand there thinking they'll take it. If faced with a prospect of slowly but perceivably growing humanity, its predators wouldn't just take this happening.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
I mean that was under optimal conditions of escaping imprisonment well in the freezing cold. We would certainly win the fight again now without that, but it feels worth mentioning.
- Location
- Germany
Molly asks a list of all the forgotten gods and monsters from Ivy.
Molly opens a wiki.
The world has a problem, but it might also be fun.
@BronzeTongue
I see why Exalts can be a quickly escalating danger, but you also have to consider context here.
Molly is in this situation, where Ivy talks to her, rather than try to kill her on sight, because she's been acting reasonably so far.
Don't you think the kind of person who would call back forgotten horrors for fun or profit would have started this encounter with a headshot from Kincaid's anti-materiel ammunition?
The supernatural world in DF is not helpless and those Exalted who move too recklessly will die before they can secure enough power and allies to make big problems for everyone else while going down.
Molly opens a wiki.
The world has a problem, but it might also be fun.
@BronzeTongue
I see why Exalts can be a quickly escalating danger, but you also have to consider context here.
Molly is in this situation, where Ivy talks to her, rather than try to kill her on sight, because she's been acting reasonably so far.
Don't you think the kind of person who would call back forgotten horrors for fun or profit would have started this encounter with a headshot from Kincaid's anti-materiel ammunition?
The supernatural world in DF is not helpless and those Exalted who move too recklessly will die before they can secure enough power and allies to make big problems for everyone else while going down.
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- Location
- Norway
[X] [MEDIUM DISCLOSURE]
My contribution to the ongoing discussion:
An engineer I know once remarked that all infrastructure becomes critical infrastructure to people who build on it. Every service becomes a dependency.
Opening the Black Vault is going to result in empowering a lot of people who each think that some particular bit of infrastructure, whether literal (a road) or metaphorical (a law) needs to be remade, and giving them the will and power to remake it. Each one may think "I'm just making a local change, it'll be better afterwards" and will break something, and the compound impact of 100 untrained Exalts breaking 100 bits of infrastructure in a short time is going to be much, much more than 100x the impact of 1 doing so.
Even for nonviolent, relatively well-intentioned Exalts:
"I'm going to use my charms and DC 4 pool of 20-dice social to make the Foreign Minister rewrite the tariffs and imports schedule into something better."
"...20-dice tech to jailbreak every mobile phone in the world."
"...20-dice investigation to doxx everyone who voted against nuclear power."
"...20-dice art to put Disney/Marvel's awful schlock out of business."
"...20-dice law to abolish surveillance programs."
So international trade is disrupted until everyone adjusts, phone behavior has changed overnight and a lot of people are unprotected and unprepared, the secret ballot is going out of style, a hundred-billion-dollar entertainment company is closing its doors and firing a million employees, governments are scrambling to figure out what it is they don't know that they don't know any more and whether the weirdness of Exalted conceptual effects stops them from re-passing the law that got abolished,
and then multiply those five examples by however many Exaltations got loose and started HELPING randomly chosen ambitious people with enormous power,
and then multiply that again by however many people had built on or were dependent on any one of the things that got broken.
It'll be chaos.
My contribution to the ongoing discussion:
An engineer I know once remarked that all infrastructure becomes critical infrastructure to people who build on it. Every service becomes a dependency.
Opening the Black Vault is going to result in empowering a lot of people who each think that some particular bit of infrastructure, whether literal (a road) or metaphorical (a law) needs to be remade, and giving them the will and power to remake it. Each one may think "I'm just making a local change, it'll be better afterwards" and will break something, and the compound impact of 100 untrained Exalts breaking 100 bits of infrastructure in a short time is going to be much, much more than 100x the impact of 1 doing so.
Even for nonviolent, relatively well-intentioned Exalts:
"I'm going to use my charms and DC 4 pool of 20-dice social to make the Foreign Minister rewrite the tariffs and imports schedule into something better."
"...20-dice tech to jailbreak every mobile phone in the world."
"...20-dice investigation to doxx everyone who voted against nuclear power."
"...20-dice art to put Disney/Marvel's awful schlock out of business."
"...20-dice law to abolish surveillance programs."
So international trade is disrupted until everyone adjusts, phone behavior has changed overnight and a lot of people are unprotected and unprepared, the secret ballot is going out of style, a hundred-billion-dollar entertainment company is closing its doors and firing a million employees, governments are scrambling to figure out what it is they don't know that they don't know any more and whether the weirdness of Exalted conceptual effects stops them from re-passing the law that got abolished,
and then multiply those five examples by however many Exaltations got loose and started HELPING randomly chosen ambitious people with enormous power,
and then multiply that again by however many people had built on or were dependent on any one of the things that got broken.
It'll be chaos.
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
They can't do those things and act like that while also maintaining the masquerade. In this hypothetical humanity would end up having straight up war with the supernatural as it realizes that these attacks are planned and organized by hostile powers.
Which would still be a hell of a lot more manageable and predictable than letting a bunch of Exalted loose with their completely out of context powers, general unpredictability and bullshit growth rates.
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Vote closed