Shards of a Broken Sun [Megaten/Shugo Chara/Exalted]

PistachioCookies · Nov 28, 2023

Funny thing, if an update hadn't been posted by now, I would've made a post asking what people thought about how much to tell JP's. My first thought was to lawyer up if they tried to ask her anything and refuse to speak without anyone like Tsukasa or Nikaidou present.

Unfortunately, this is the big man himself, not just a a couple of yellow jackets. We can't lawyer up without making him annoyed. We have to make a hard choice here about whether we want to try and ally with him and stay on his good side, or whether we want to keep him at arm's length.

I imagine Hotsuin is the sort of person Hikaru Ichinomiya might have turned out to be like, if he hadn't met Amu and gotten his egg back - a coldly-calculating, emotionally-stunted man in a suit. Amu doesn't know about their similarities in upbringing yet, though if we choose to ally with him, maybe she'd be able to draw that parallel at some point and help him too.

That said....

Baughn said:
"Himamori Amu," he said. It wasn't a question.

Asshole. Her name is HiNAmori Amu, not "HiMAmori", which was Nikaidou's pet insult nickname for her back in grade school. If it's a legitimate mistake, which I doubt, he either didn't consider her important enough to remember her name properly or Lulu was an asshole and gave him the wrong name.

And if it's not a mistake and he did it on purpose, he's just being an asshole.

Winged One said:
As for this one... Thoughts on this, everyone?

We don't really need that much justification to avoid telling him about the Scavengers. We already promised them we wouldn't tell anyone about their group without clearing it with them first. And I don't think we need to butter him up by trying to tell him how helpful he was either - Amu herself has 0 points in Socializing, I cannot see deliberately trying to court his favor doing anything but backfire.

We don't know how much he knows about Charas, but seeing as Lulu is his cousin, he is probably completely aware of them and how they work. So we probably don't need to hide that Amu is a Chara user from him or send Miki away or bother explaining her existence. We don't know exactly how the rift started either, but everybody else in the classroom could tell it started just after Amu and Saaya confronted each other. Additionally Makoto is now apparently psychic - she may have been able to sense that it started from a mental conflict between them.

Personally, I don't think we really should try to hide Saaya's involvement - if we tried, Hotsuin would find out anyway and get ticked off. If it were me, what I WOULD do is stress that Saaya nearly committed suicide trying to immediately plug the rift herself.

And especially if we want to try and get closer to JP's, I'd also recommend we tell them she's currently being held together by the Humpty Lock and could use some psychic medical attention and take the opportunity to throw Tsukasa at him at the same time by mentioning that he should speak to their school principal, as he knows more about how the Lock works than Amu. It could be interesting seeing how they react to each other. If we get Saaya sent to JP's for medical treatment, it also would give us an excuse to visit their facilities and get to know other, less prickly people within JP's. Assuming we want to ally ourselves with them.

As for Ami...... what does everybody think Hotsuin's reaction might be if she showed up to hug Amu while they were chatting?

Quine · Nov 28, 2023

Baughn said:
"Thank you," she muttered, blinking her eyes open. "What's your name?"

"Hotsuin Yamato," he replied, then paused. Amu didn't fill the silence. She was feeling more alert, but that only made her realise just how tired she was. She wanted to sleep. "Himamori," he said after a moment. "Do you remember what happened?"

Huh. The actual head honcho is here, questioning us right now.

And going by the hair (if not the outfit):

Baughn said:
A woman dressed in a lab coat with short black hair implausibly set in twintails started gesticulating up at it, talking in an excited tone to a man wearing a black suit, but Amu couldn't quite make herself pay attention.

It sounds like Fumi is here too.

We know from Lulu's interlude that JP's has been dealing with plenty of "D-type events", yet Fumi came here personally, and is very excited now that she's here. That means this rift is different from previous incidents, and not just in how very public it is. This is likely the first time JP's has been able to gather data on such a thing.

On one hand, that means JP's probably hasn't hushed up any other rift incidents. On the other hand, any rift countermeasures they have are probably untested, if they even have any. If they don't have any, hopefully Fumi can come up with some. (Whatever happened to the rift at the end there doesn't seem to have been JP's's work, unless they managed to do that before they even parked.)

Baughn said:
It took Amu just a moment's focus to project her not-a-magical-girl-outfit, her clothes transforming into something a little more appropriate for a fight. And maybe a little less appropriate for being outside her house, she thought, cringing slightly as the photographers came to mind. She'd never thought of it that way but she'd never gotten photographed while wearing it either! She could practically feel the cameras going off.

Welp. That's going in the news! Looks like it's the flashiest outfit in the scene, too.

Baughn said:
She grasped a club that hadn't existed a moment ago—the heart rod, demoted to bludgeoning weapon—then flung it up hard enough that both her muscles and mind burned. It shot up and caught the thing in the chest, its claws bare millimetres from her skin. There was a screech, and a crunch, and her arm went numb from the impact. She felt its claws rake across her arm, trying to cling as it was sent flying, but the damage wasn't much. She could fix—did fix it, though—she felt a burning, bone-deep ache in her arm as the flesh knitted itself back together, blood soaking through the dress the demon had just cut to shreds, but she had too much adrenaline in her system to stop.

Biokinesis sure is useful. Even after exaltation (assuming she does exalt), I expect Amu will rely more on biokinesis and SMT healing spells than charms for healing.

On the other hand, the job of avoiding harm will probably fall to charms. No defense Amu can muster without charms comes anywhere close to the likes of Seven Shadow Evasion or Integrity-Protecting Prana.

Baughn said:
She corrected herself, catching a glimpse of Makoto—her classmate—and two others standing between another roc and a group of possible second-graders. There were more demons. She just hadn't seen them. Makoto shouted something angry, while behind her a girl Amu swore she'd seen at lunch was lying on the ground, pale and motionless. A fifth girl was bandaging her with- was that frozen light? It looked like the moon-shard in her bedroom.

The demon went for Makoto, then had a wing ripped off for its trouble. A sharp bang- an electrical arc skittered across Makoto's skin- Makoto screamed, though the demon got ripped to pieces.

Lots of people showing their powers today. I wonder how many of them knew about these powers before today.

Baughn said:
Three more packs took off from the rift. Amu's breath caught in her throat as she watched the demons fly, a dozen black specks rising above the school grounds. She glanced back towards her dad, who was standing there impotently. Holding Saaya, who seemed to have fallen unconscious. She could see some students running for cover, or just running away, and- and-

Saaya still really ought to get checked out by a doctor. JP's is probably our best bet for finding a doctor with the appropriate training and context to deal with Saaya's condition. I don't think they're likely to try anything funny with Saaya or the lock - Hotsuin knows both the public and Lulu are paying too much attention.

Baughn said:
More of her classmates were organising themselves. In the distance she saw Utau, dressed in a gym uniform, her face set and focused. She was standing with a small crowd of girls Amu had never seen before.

Does Utau go to this school... yeah, she does in this quest, so her being here is normal.

Baughn said:
The school was a mess. There were chunks missing from the building, and even if the worst had been dealt with, there were still injured students. She could still feel Tadase inside the building, apparently trapped. There were a lot of paramedics running about and she could hear people shouting, but her attention was caught by something else.

Good, Tadase seems to be okay after whatever happened at the end with the rift. He would have been very close to whatever that effect was.

Baughn said:
- Ami is outside as well and feeling very proud, you can feel it from here.

I wonder what she's so proud of. Maybe she was the one sending those pulses from the grade school section.

Going back to the intro post for a bit:

Baughn said:
A box in her wardrobe had a gemstone with an eye painted on it, a gift from Hikaru, who'd claimed it was a ward against evil.

We should start carrying that around with us instead of leaving it in our wardrobe - that, or give it to someone who needs it more, like mom or dad.

PistachioCookies · Nov 28, 2023

This would be my vote plan for trying to get in with JP's.

Hotsuin himself is going to be a work-in-progress. That guy is not suddenly going to become nice overnight, much less in a single chat. But there will be time if we can get our foot in the door.

[X] Plan: The Angel You Know, The Devil You Don't
-[X] Utau is probably ready to tear her hair out. You can try to get some word to her, though at this range a burst of emotion is about the best you can do. Alternately you can shout at her.
-[X] Ask her to come, so that you can explain things to both her and Hotsuin at the same time without needing to repeat yourself.
--[X] When she arrives, introduce Hotsuin as being Lulu's cousin and Utau as having helped during the fight.
-[X] Hotsuin wants to know what's going on.
-[X] Tell him what you know about the rift incident, including that the rift suddenly appeared in the middle of an argument with your friend. Stress that Saaya is your friend and that she nearly committed suicide trying something to suppress the rift and now needs medical help, even after you patched her up.
-[X] Tell him you had to use the Humpty Lock to hold Saaya together and don't know if it is safe for anyone to remove and that Tsukasa, the principal, knows more about how it works than she does and suggest he speak to him.
-[X] Tadase seems to be trapped inside the building.
-[X] Mention that you sense Tadase still trapped in the building and that he stayed there to stop the rift from expanding.
-[X] Demon fight
-[X] Explain what you know. You weren't there for the whole fight, since you were busy patching up Saaya and carrying her to safety. You also couldn't keep track of all the demons during the part you were there for, so others like Utau might be able to tell him more.
-[X] Ami is outside as well and feeling very proud, you can feel it from here.
-[X] Let her do what she wants, but warn her there are cameras around and she might wind up on some newpaper if she's not careful.
-[X] Miki is probably headed your way.
-[X] Let her. You can use the support.
-[X] Hotsuin would probably accept being asked some questions in return.
-[X] Who are the people he came with? Is he with the police?
-[X] Can they help Saaya?
-[X] Does he know what the rift was and what the monsters that came out of them were?
-[X] Does he know what happened to the rift?
-[X] Do any other secret government organizations that deal with supernatural stuff exist too?
-[X] "Please, could you call me 'Hinamori' instead of 'Himamori'?"

....The reason I want Utau here for the chat is twofold. Not just because of the moral support, not just to keep her happy, not just to deflect some of Hotsuin's attention from Amu, not just so she can mind-read the man for anything Amu might miss.

But because, unlike Amu, Utau is a professional celebrity and (presumably) has an actual lawyer available, which would make Hotsuin think twice about trying to use legal threats to pressure anyone. And as an idol, she'll also deflect the attention from Amu from the cameras as well. Who cares about Amu, when there's an actual pop singer celebrity right there?

PistachioCookies · Nov 28, 2023

Quine said:
On one hand, that means JP's probably hasn't hushed up any other rift incidents. On the other hand, any rift countermeasures they have are probably untested, if they even have any. If they don't have any, hopefully Fumi can come up with some. (Whatever happened to the rift at the end there doesn't seem to have been JP's's work, unless they managed to do that before they even parked.)

My guess is that it was Hotsuin himself, personally using the Dragon Stream to lock down the rift.

This bit of the fight:

Baughn said:
The other flight had been decimated. There were two demons still in the air, but as she thought that she saw one of them caught in a burst of fire.

Makes me believe that Hotsuin himself went ahead of his men in the trucks and was on the ground during the fight. His go-to demon in the anime was Cerberus, which specializes in fire-based spells. I think the fire came from him trying to clear a path to the rift, at which point he performed whatever ritual he needed to use the Dragon Stream.

I had a hunch before the chapter that he might be JP's solution, as Baughn hinted that the Tokyo Tower wasn't emanating anything yet meaning JP's might not have the machinery necessary to automate using the Dragon Stream. Which would necessitate the big man himself being there in person to do the job.

SCO said:
There is nothing to say to him that won't backfire in a immediate kidnapping I think.

Too many witnesses and cameras to be likely. But also why I advocate Utau being next to Amu for the chat - Utau wouldn't let him arrest Amu without a big stink and would also ensure Amu got out pretty quickly even if he did, because she would tell everybody including Hikaru. And Easter almost certainly has an army of lawyers that could immediately bail her out, once he found out.

Hotsuin could try and arrest HER too, of course, but she'd get out even faster than Amu, on account of her being a public celebrity who likely has her own lawyer's number on speed dial.

Quine · Nov 28, 2023

Remember, any line that looks like "- Stuff" instead of "-[X] Stuff" isn't going to be picked up by the vote tally.

PistachioCookies said:
-[X] Does he know anything about an organization called Manticore?
--[X] Do not tell him how you know the name if he asks where you heard it, only that you made a promise not to say where you found out.

Asking about Manticore is definitely a risk. On one hand, this is probably the only time we'll get to ask this guy that kind of question any time soon. On the other hand, exposing our knowledge of the name draws attention both to us, and to anyone we might have learned the name from. Plus, we told Naomi we would clear this kind of thing with her first. We have not cleared this with Naomi, and I'm pretty sure she would veto asking Hotsuin this question.

PistachioCookies said:
My guess is that it was Hotsuin himself, personally using the Dragon Stream to lock down the rift.

This bit of the fight:
Makes me believe that Hotsuin himself went ahead of his men in the trucks and was on the ground during the fight. His go-to demon in the anime was Cerberus, which specializes in fire-based spells. I think the fire came from him trying to clear a path to the rift, at which point he performed whatever ritual he needed to use the Dragon Stream.

Mmm... plausible. Maybe we should ask him if he knows what stopped the rift.

PistachioCookies · Nov 28, 2023

Quine said:
Remember, any line that looks like "- Stuff" instead of "-[X] Stuff" isn't going to be picked up by the vote tally.

Yeah, that's deliberate, those bits were just there to separate the votes by section for people reading the actual voteplan, they were copied off the chapter's vote breakdown and not meant to be part of the actions.

Quine said:
Asking about Manticore is definitely a risk. On one hand, this is probably the only time we'll get to ask this guy that kind of question any time soon. On the other hand, exposing our knowledge of the name draws attention both to us, and to anyone we might have learned the name from.

This is also deliberate - if we want to get in with Hotsuin, we need something to make him interested in us.

We are not going to be able to Social the man. Hotsuin doesn't do Social. Amu doesn't do Social. If we want to keep his interest beyond him wondering what's so special about Amu that his cousin came begging for help, we need something we can dangle in front of him.

The Humpty Lock is one. Manticore is another.

I especially want to see what Utau picks up off mind reading him when we ask that question. Since if it turns that that Hotsuin is involved with them, Utau might be able to read it. Amu might too, or she might not depending on how tired she is.

Quine said:
Plus, we told Naomi we would clear this kind of thing with her first. We have not cleared this with Naomi, and I'm pretty sure she would veto asking Hotsuin this question.

We told Naomi we would clear it with her if we asked anyone to help them. But we aren't asking Hotsuin for help and we're not telling him about them - this is why there's the sub-sub vote to refuse to elaborate if he pries for details.

What we are trying to do is find out what he knows. We especially want to find out if Manticore is part of JP's or worse, whether he's involved with them. If it turns out he's behind Manticore, we would certainly not be asking him for help and I don't think the Scavengers would begrudge us finding that out.

And if it turns out to be the best case - that he knows about them and is actively working against them - we can then ask the Scavengers if they'll let Amu ask him for help.

Quine said:
Mmm... plausible. Maybe we should ask him if he knows what stopped the rift.

Good idea, added that question onto the voteplan.

Baughn said:
"There is also that," he agreed, "but I was asked to come here by my... cousin. She can be very- insistent."

This makes me wonder whether they really are cousins and exactly what their relationship is like.

Canonically, Hotsuin had nobody to empathize or connect with growing up. All his relationships were apparently purely professional. Here, he has some kind of relationship with Lulu that is apparently close enough that he personally saw fit to do her a favor upon her sudden insistence.

And if that's the case, he might not be completely unsalvageable even if he turns out to be the one behind Manticore. If that turned out to be that case, I previously couldn't think of anything short of extreme brainwashing to forcibly install a sense of empathy into him, that might allow him to remain allies with Amu.

But if he's got something going with Lulu though, we might be able to get to him through her somehow.

Quine · Nov 28, 2023

PistachioCookies said:
Yeah, that's deliberate, those bits were just there to separate the votes by section for people reading the actual voteplan, they were copied off the chapter's vote breakdown and not meant to be part of the actions.

They're not part of the actions, but it still means your plan shows up in the tally with a bunch of references to "her" that don't have the context to identify who you're talking about.

PistachioCookies said:
We told Naomi we would clear it with her if we asked anyone to help them. But we aren't asking Hotsuin for help and we're not telling him about them - this is why there's the sub-sub vote to refuse to elaborate if he pries for details.

I don't think Naomi will see it that way if she learns about this. First off, our promise wasn't so specific. Our promise was as follows:

Baughn said:
"It's not like that," Amu argued. "I just saw something that reminded me of myself, and... I can't ignore it, okay? I can't. There's a lot of people I could ask, if I'm careful. And-" She felt a pulse from Kana. "-yes, I'll run all of them past you first, obviously."

We didn't say ask for help. We just said "ask".

But putting aside exact wording, the point of the promise is that Naomi is worried about the danger that comes with letting people have information. Letting someone know Amu knows about Manticore, and telling them she's promised not to tell where she heard the name, gives out a lot more information than I think Naomi would be comfortable with. This is especially the case if you suspect this person may actually be involved with Manticore. This line of conversation very heavily implies that Amu is connected to someone who is in danger from Manticore.

Imagine we could ask Naomi right now, over a silent mental link, "Hey, I think this mysterious agent dude in front of me might be connected to Manticore. Is it okay if I ask him if he knows anything about Manticore? If he asks where I heard the name, I'll tell him I promised not to say." I'm pretty sure Naomi's response would be something along the lines of "What the hell? No! Absolutely not!"

PistachioCookies · Nov 28, 2023

Amu doesn't currently suspect whether Hotsuin is connected to Manticore - in fact, knowing he's Lulu's cousin and the one she called for help, she is likely to currently believe the exact opposite: that he's actually trustworthy.

So if she were to ask Hotsuin about Manticore, it would purely be to find out if he knows anything, with no "might be connected to Manticore" strawman attached like you propose. And if she were to ask Naomi: "Can I ask someone I know and trust in the government if they have ever heard of Manticore, without mentioning any of you?", she would likely be more amenable.

The only reason we the audience know that Hotsuin is not, in fact, a particularly stand-up guy is because we have out-of-universe knowledge about him.

I'd also like to point out that any course of action where Amu allies with JP's is also likely going to end with Hotsuin finding out about her connection to the Scavengers sooner or later. Since if Hotsuin is interested enough to keep her around, he'll be interested enough to ask questions when Amu starts getting into trouble running around with the Scavengers. Manticore is best addressed as early as possible in that case, to clarify whether they and JP's are already involved with one another.

And even if you insist on kicking that can down the road to appease Naomi in the short term - Naomi is already not going to be pleased that Amu got involved with a government conspiracy, regardless of whether it's the same one as Manticore.

Better to be able to tell her it's not Manticore during that conversation than admit you don't know if they are. And if they turn out to be the same thing, Manticore have to be addressed at some point anyway - I would rather it not be revealed when Amu is out with the Scavengers, calls JP's for help and suddenly ends up having to fight the help she called for.

EDIT: I could change that question to instead ask Hotsuin whether there exist any other secret government organizations that deal with supernatural phenomena (that he knows of), but I reiterate that the Scavengers aren't going to be happy about Amu being involved in JP's regardless and the Manticore in the room should be addressed as soon as possible.

Quine said:
They're not part of the actions, but it still means your plan shows up in the tally with a bunch of references to "her" that don't have the context to identify who you're talking about.

I assume the QM would read the actual post containing the vote and not just the tally, but if you insist I'll checkbox them too.

Skelm · Nov 28, 2023

[X] Plan: The Angel You Know, The Devil You Don't

Quine · Nov 28, 2023

PistachioCookies said:
So if she were to ask Hotsuin about Manticore, it would purely be to find out if he knows anything, with no "might be connected to Manticore" strawman attached like you propose. And if she were to ask Naomi: "Can I ask someone I know and trust in the government if they have ever heard of Manticore, without mentioning any of you?", she would likely be more amenable.

We do not "know and trust" this guy. Regardless of his connection to Lulu, we have known this guy for like a minute. We know Lulu's connections aren't all the greatest people - for example, Easter. In or out of character, we do not trust this guy.

PistachioCookies said:
And even if you insist on kicking that can down the road to appease Naomi in the short term - Naomi is already not going to be pleased that Amu got involved with a government conspiracy, regardless of whether it's the same one as Manticore.

Naomi won't be pleased, but JP's showing up wasn't Amu's choice, and we're not going to advance our connection to the point of allying with them here.

On the other hand, if we deliberately bring up Manticore now, that's a specific choice to reveal information that could lead to the Scavengers, to someone we just met, who we can guess probably has the personal power and authority to cause serious harm to the Scavengers. We would be making this choice without discussion with Naomi, against our best understanding of her wishes. If Naomi learns about this, it will break any trust we might have built up with her. If Kana learns about this (and she almost certainly will), it will at the very least damage her trust, and she is likely to tell Naomi.

Also, Kana is an actual murderer. We are personally sure she has committed at least one count of the very serious crime of murder. We can guess she probably murders people fairly regularly. Her victims' crimes do not legally excuse her own crimes. (Naomi is probably a murderer too.)

I think Amu is already an accessory to murder at this point. If she isn't, it probably won't be long before she is.

We need to be very careful about our connection to Kana. Even if Hotsuin has nothing to do with Manticore, if Hotsuin learns about Kana's crimes, he may decide that we're more trouble than we're worth. Even if he doesn't decide we're more trouble than we're worth, he gains massive leverage over us. If you're confident that working with Hotsuin means he learns about our connection to the Scavengers, then we may have to put off working with Hotsuin until we have a better idea of how to handle the murder issue.

PistachioCookies said:
EDIT: I could change that question to instead ask Hotsuin whether there exist any other secret government organizations that deal with supernatural phenomena (that he knows of), but I reiterate that the Scavengers aren't going to be happy about Amu being involved in JP's regardless and the Manticore in the room should be addressed as soon as possible.

I would definitely prefer a version that doesn't indicate existing knowledge of Manticore.

Simon. Andersen · Nov 28, 2023

[X] Plan: The Angel You Know, The Devil You Don't

PistachioCookies · Nov 28, 2023

I'll change the question to just asking him if there's any other secret government organizations instead of directly mentioning Manticore, but I feel it really is just kicking the can down the road.

Quine said:
We need to be very careful about our connection to Kana. Even if Hotsuin has nothing to do with Manticore, if Hotsuin learns about Kana's crimes, he may decide that we're more trouble than we're worth. Even if he doesn't decide we're more trouble than we're worth, he gains massive leverage over us.

Given his lack of empathy, I have my doubts about whether Hotsuin would so much care whether the Scavengers (or Amu) has killed people before so much as how effective they are at the job - in fact, if the Scavengers actively take contracts, I could imagine the guy hiring them himself if he thought they could do a better job than his other assets.

It would also be sort of hard to link any of their murders to Amu, since she hasn't actually been there during any time they've killed anyone. The only reason she even knows they have is from mind reading, which is effectively about the same as hearing someone else claim they've done a killing after the fact. Doesn't exactly make her culpable for it.

Quine said:
We do not "know and trust" this guy. Regardless of his connection to Lulu, we have known this guy for like a minute. We know Lulu's connections aren't all the greatest people - for example, Easter. In or out of character, we do not trust this guy.

But we do trust Lulu and this IS the guy she sent to help. So that trust would logically be extended to him. If nothing else, Amu apparently thinks his outfit is cool.

DarkN0va · Nov 28, 2023

[X] Plan: The Angel You Know, The Devil You Don't

PistachioCookies · Nov 28, 2023

BTW, I suspect that if Hotsuin did give Amu a straight answer as to what other secret government organizations there were, that answer would be "at least 1 more" as I suspect the Tokyo Metropolitan Police Department Security Bureau's Shadow Response Unit has also been established at this point in the Persona timeline.

More succinctly referred to as the "Shadow Operatives".

Quine · Nov 28, 2023

PistachioCookies said:
Given his lack of empathy, I have my doubts about whether Hotsuin would so much care whether the Scavengers (or Amu) has killed people before so much as how effective they are at the job - in fact, if the Scavengers actively take contracts, I could imagine the guy hiring them himself if he thought they could do a better job than his other assets.

It would also be sort of hard to link any of their murders to Amu, since she hasn't actually been there during any time they've killed anyone. The only reason she even knows they have is from mind reading, which is effectively about the same as hearing someone else claim they've done a killing after the fact. Doesn't exactly make her culpable for it.

It's not a matter of empathy. A connection to the Scavengers is a potential weak point. If their crimes come to light, and the Scavengers get connected to him, he has to spend political capital fighting the connection. He has to spend even more political capital if he was aiding the Scavengers, or if his enemies can make it look like he was aiding the Scavengers. He may not want this connection.

It might be hard to link the Scavengers' crimes to Amu now, but that'll change. If Hotsuin can record the right conversation, or get footage of Amu working with the Scavengers, he can hold that over Amu's head. With how closely you seem to want to work with Hotsuin, he'll probably be able to arrange that.

PistachioCookies said:
But we do trust Lulu and this IS the guy she sent to help. So that trust would logically be extended to him. If nothing else, Amu apparently thinks his outfit is cool.

Trust isn't transitive, and even if it was, we don't even have reason to believe Lulu trusts this guy. We know she sent him, but that doesn't mean she trusts him.

Out of character, we know this guy isn't trustworthy. Any in-character logic that would lead to concluding this guy is trustworthy is wrong. Amu could plausibly make such a mistake, but it would be a mistake. A character like Naomi would recognize that it's a mistake. Such a mistake would still damage their trust in Amu.

PistachioCookies · Nov 28, 2023

Quine said:
A connection to the Scavengers is a potential weak point. If their crimes come to light, and the Scavengers get connected to him, he has to spend political capital fighting the connection. He has to spend even more political capital if he was aiding the Scavengers, or if his enemies can make it look like he was aiding the Scavengers. He may not want this connection.

We're talking about murders being done using supernatural powers, by people who were the product of a government initiative to research the supernatural, against people also involved in supernatural matters. There is no way these murders could come to light in public without dragging the rest of the whole supernatural shambles along with it.

If that actually happened, Hotsuin would be dragged out along with it all regardless of whether or not he was directly connected to the Scavengers or knew anyone connected to them. He'd have to deal with the fallout too, because he runs a secret government body dealing with the supernatural.

Of course, since the government as a whole appears to have a vested interest in keeping all the supernatural stuff under wraps, it is very, very unlikely those killings would ever see the light of day. This also means Hotsuin is unlikely to need to spend much capital to convince those eager to keep things quiet to, well, keep things quiet.

If anything, he himself might see the opportunity to use the Scavengers as leverage against Manticore and threaten to fully back them, unless the latter falls into line (or actually fully back them, to try and get rid of the other conspiracy).

Quine said:
It might be hard to link the Scavengers' crimes to Amu now, but that'll change. If Hotsuin can record the right conversation, or get footage of Amu working with the Scavengers, he can hold that over Amu's head. With how closely you seem to want to work with Hotsuin, he'll probably be able to arrange that.

You're assuming Amu would actually condone the Scavengers murdering somebody in front in her when she's there and either participate or let it happen.

I don't feel this is as likely as you'd think it would be.

Quine said:
Trust isn't transitive, and even if it was, we don't even have reason to believe Lulu trusts this guy. We know she sent him, but that doesn't mean she trusts him.

I mean, you generally don't send people to help your friends, if you don't trust they'll actually help your friends.

Quine · Nov 28, 2023

PistachioCookies said:
We're talking about murders being done using supernatural powers, by people who were the product of a government initiative to research the supernatural, against people also involved in supernatural matters. There is no way these murders could come to light in public without dragging the rest of the whole supernatural shambles along with it.

If that actually happened, Hotsuin would be dragged out along with it all regardless of whether or not he was directly connected to the Scavengers or knew anyone connected to them. He'd have to deal with the fallout too, because he runs a secret government body dealing with the supernatural.

The supernatural is already getting dragged into the spotlight, right now. Hotsuin himself is personally on the scene for it, at the head of a JP's task force. He's already got to deal with the fallout.

PistachioCookies said:
You're assuming Amu would actually condone the Scavengers murdering somebody in front in her when she's there and either participate or let it happen.

I don't feel this is as likely as you'd think it would be.

Okay, "accessory" is a lot broader than you seem to think it is. She doesn't have to be there. She doesn't even have to know about the crime before or while it happens. Very broad categories of aid are enough to make one an accessory to a crime.

She's lucky she can't legally be punished for it at age 13 - the minimum punishable age is 14 in Japan. The rep hit, in a place like Japan, though? It would probably wreck her parents' careers.

PistachioCookies said:
I mean, you generally don't send people to help your friends, if you don't trust they'll actually help your friends.

First off, that situation was desperate enough that she would send people she didn't trust, because it beats not sending them. Second, trusting someone to do the specific job you sent them to do is very different from thinking someone is a trustworthy person in general.

PistachioCookies · Nov 28, 2023

Quine said:
The supernatural is already getting dragged into the spotlight, right now. Hotsuin himself is personally on the scene for it, at the head of a JP's task force. He's already got to deal with the fallout.

If you assume this is the case and everything is about to be completely blown open, then whether he's linked to the Scavengers isn't going to make much difference anyway. JP's summons demons as part of their work, any connection to psychic assassins will be a drop in an ocean when the newspapers have Yamato Hotsuin's face next to his giant fire-breathing dog, causing people to ask why the government are going around summoning the same things that just killed a whole bunch of schoolchildren.

Quine said:
Okay, "accessory" is a lot broader than you seem to think it is. She doesn't have to be there. She doesn't even have to know about the crime before or while it happens. Very broad categories of aid are enough to make one an accessory to a crime.

Again, assuming that she will actually let any crimes of homicide take place while she's with the Scavengers.

Quine said:
Second, trusting someone to do the specific job you sent them to do is very different from thinking someone is a trustworthy person in general.

Look, we already got some inkling of what Lulu thinks about her cousin from her chat to Amu:

Baughn said:
Besides, I need to keep an eye on my cousin, you know? All work and no play makes boys like him into very dull adults indeed, and he'd just hate that, I know it. I'd never let him hear the end of it.

This does not sound to me like someone she overly distrusts.

In fact, I am hopeful that she was a good influence on him and that he is less psychopathic to start in this quest than he is in canon, where he apparently got the Hikaru Ichinomiya treatment growing up. And developed some very sour ideas about the world as a result.

Baughn · Nov 28, 2023

veekie said:
Ami & Miki - might be best to have them close to Amu? If nothing else she could use the emotional support, because she's wiped

PistachioCookies said:
As for Ami...... what does everybody think Hotsuin's reaction might be if she showed up to hug Amu while they were chatting?

Well... what would Hotsuin think, I wonder?

If there's reason to keep her away, it's most likely to do with—um—Amu doesn't look her best right now. Ami looks up to her a great deal, and might not appreciate the sight of Amu being, er, covered in blood. Her clothes have also seen better days. If Hotsuin wasn't being Hotsuin, the only sane choice right now would be to take her to a hospital for evaluation.

PistachioCookies said:
Asshole. Her name is HiNAmori Amu, not "HiMAmori", which was Nikaidou's pet insult nickname for her back in grade school. If it's a legitimate mistake, which I doubt, he either didn't consider her important enough to remember her name properly or Lulu was an asshole and gave him the wrong name.

I won't argue with your reading of his character, but I guess I do feel like pointing one thing out. In DeSu2 canon, Hotsuin forgets the family name of one of the primary characters. Not because he's trying to be annoying, but it's not simply a mistake either—it's because Hotsuin, personally, doesn't consider family names to be useful. More generally, he doesn't value family.

Quine said:
Does Utau go to this school... yeah, she does in this quest, so her being here is normal.

This is an interesting question.

In canon it isn't clear that Utau goes to any school at all, for the duration of her idol career. She was definitely being abused by Easter, and taking her away from a normal environment is one of the ways that happened. We're not told one way or the other, but I'm going to assume she didn't, because the amount of time she spends on it just doesn't seem compatible with schooling. That, and her mental state was bad enough that... okay, this is Japan, but in many places it might trigger mandatory reporting provisions for the teachers.

She doesn't have an idol career anymore. She still sings, but she doesn't release CDs, or have concerts, or generally spend nearly as much of her time on this. Her adoptive mother—Sanjou—appeared to get blacklisted by Easter, blocking her out of the industry almost entirely. While that sounds bad, I think it was just what Utau needed... either way the breadwinner of the family is probably Nikaidou.

Who's a teacher at Seiyo Academcy.

Whose headmaster makes a hobby of collecting psychic children. Gotta catch 'em all.

What we see of Utau's singing, late canon, is almost entirely at the level of a hobby. She still tries hard to get heard, but I don't feel like it's anywhere near as unhealthy as an idol career normally is, because—again—she isn't one anymore.

So, yes, she goes to high school now. And the high school she goes to is one that keeps her close to Amu.

PistachioCookies said:
And if that's the case, he might not be completely unsalvageable even if he turns out to be the one behind Manticore. If that turned out to be that case, I previously couldn't think of anything short of extreme brainwashing to forcibly install a sense of empathy into him, that might allow him to remain allies with Amu.

But if he's got something going with Lulu though, we might be able to get to him through her somehow.

PistachioCookies said:
In fact, I am hopeful that she was a good influence on him and that he is less psychopathic to start in this quest than he is in canon, where he apparently got the Hikaru Ichinomiya treatment growing up. And developed some very sour ideas about the world as a result.

Well, hey, you could always just call up Lulu and ask. ;-)

PistachioCookies said:
Again, assuming that she will actually let any crimes of homicide take place while she's with the Scavengers.

The criteria for being an accessory is a bit looser than that. If you assist in preparation, execution, or after the fact concealing then that counts... but 'preparation' is a loose enough criteria that Amu could accidentally trigger it, as is 'concealing', if she doesn't tread exactly right. Not telling the police about a murder isn't in itself illegal... but her family would absolutely be destroyed if it became public, so there's that.

On the other hand there's literally no evidence of this outside of Amu's mind.

PistachioCookies said:
Additionally Makoto is now apparently psychic - she may have been able to sense that it started from a mental conflict between them.

Oh, right, Makoto...

It's possible that this is the first time she realised she is, but who even knows? This school has warped the children's notions of normality, that's for sure. Makoto is thirteen years old. She's self-aware enough to know that "11.8" is an unreasonable time on a 100m run, by most definitions...

It isn't that unusual a time in this school. The track team is... competitive.

NHO · Nov 28, 2023

Baughn said:
Whose headmaster makes a hobby of collecting psychic children. Gotta catch 'em all.

Is his name Xavier?

And the fact that school is full of psychics is, with no doubt, causing Hotsuin great mental pain.

Winged One · Nov 28, 2023

PistachioCookies said:
We don't really need that much justification to avoid telling him about the Scavengers. We already promised them we wouldn't tell anyone about their group without clearing it with them first. And I don't think we need to butter him up by trying to tell him how helpful he was either - Amu herself has 0 points in Socializing, I cannot see deliberately trying to court his favor doing anything but backfire.

I'll be honest, half the subvotes are just fishing for stunt dice.

Baughn · Nov 28, 2023

Winged One said:
I'll be honest, half the subvotes are just fishing for stunt dice.

I'm unlikely to be rolling any dice. Although, y'know, don't let that stop you.

PistachioCookies · Nov 28, 2023

Baughn said:
If you assist in preparation, execution, or after the fact concealing then that counts... but 'preparation' is a loose enough criteria that Amu could accidentally trigger it, as is 'concealing', if she doesn't tread exactly right. Not telling the police about a murder isn't in itself illegal... but her family would absolutely be destroyed if it became public, so there's that.

That still requires there to actually be "the fact that a crime was committed", which Amu fully knows about it.

Amu currently knows about exactly one past murder Kana committed which happened long before they met and as you point out, nobody knows she knows about. If there have been other murders committed while she was hanging out with them - she doesn't know about any of those. Mostly because she made it a point not to ask and the Scavengers deliberately don't tell her, but that doesn't change that she doesn't know. So she can't possibly have been deemed to have assisted in any way with those.

She would actually have to know about one or that one was being planned, to assist in preparing or concealing it accidentally or otherwise.

If the Scavengers outright told her they were planning to murder or assassinate someone... I would be most disappointed if Amu whole-heartedly went along with it without trying to seek an alternative. I would not be voting for enthusiastic co-operation at the very least, I can tell you.

Now, is it possible that Hotsuin could accuse Amu of assisting in the homicides she didn't know about and threaten to smear her family with the association?

Yes, but she also wouldn't especially need to be involved with the Scavengers for him to do that - he could easily make up that story up out of whole cloth, regardless of any actual connections she had. That's just false accusations and a smear campaign, which he can threaten to do with or without any real culpability on her part.

Baughn said:
Well... what would Hotsuin think, I wonder?

If there's reason to keep her away, it's most likely to do with—um—Amu doesn't look her best right now. Ami looks up to her a great deal, and might not appreciate the sight of Amu being, er, covered in blood.

Hotsuin might not overly value family, but I'm hoping it might provoke a bit of jealously at seeing that Amu gets a loving sister worried about her while he only gets Lulu.

More realistically, I figure he'd probably just get annoyed that their meeting was interrupted, if Ami comes early enough to interrupt their chat.

As for Amu not wanting Ami to see her like that, oh come on, there's no way she'd be able to prevent it when they're both there on school grounds and likely going to be both brought home by their father together. Not unless she went out of her way to try and take a shower before leaving and something tells me that's not going to happen.

Baughn · Nov 28, 2023

PistachioCookies said:
Hotsuin might not overly value family, but I'm hoping it might provoke a bit of jealously at seeing that Amu gets a loving sister worried about her while he only gets Lulu.

More realistically, I figure he'd probably just get annoyed that their meeting was interrupted, if Ami comes early enough to interrupt their chat.

As for Amu not wanting Ami to see her like that, oh come on, there's no way she'd be able to prevent it when they're both there on school grounds and likely going to be both brought home by their father together. Not unless she went out of her way to try and take a shower before leaving and something tells me that's not going to happen.

True! True, though that won't mean she won't try. The exhaustion might mean she doesn't try, and her father is likely to try to prevent it as well. I genuinely don't know the outcome there. Not, I suppose, that it's that important—unless you're Ami and Amu, in which case it's quite important indeed. But, well. Ami... might need to grow up even faster than Amu did. If it doesn't happen today, it will some other day.

As regards Hotsuin, I think he'd agree that Lulu's annoying, and gets under his skin, and generally is a pain in the butt.

He might even provide some sarcastic words, but only if she calls.

Quickshot0 · Nov 28, 2023

PistachioCookies said:
As for Amu not wanting Ami to see her like that, oh come on, there's no way she'd be able to prevent it when they're both there on school grounds and likely going to be both brought home by their father together. Not unless she went out of her way to try and take a shower before leaving and something tells me that's not going to happen.

Normally Amu could use Su or so to probably solve this... but she seems pretty tapped out. Perhaps some one has a power that can clean her off? Else maybe someone will has some spare supplies for cleaning people up a bit?

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