Starting to feel like this vote was something of a forgone conclusion...

In my defence, Iris was the one who suggested it.

<Iris> And what's that supposed to mean?

Nothing.
...
*flees*
 
[Joke] Take the blue pill, and your part in the story ends.

[X] Yes

Hope everything with your teeth is better, Snowfire. And whew, feel like we made the right call with that last vote!
 
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[X] Yes

I believe this leads us to the scene where Krea walks up to a disguised Amanda, who's tangled in a rope net, and pulls off her camouflage, dramatically revealing the human underneath! After which Amanda growls "And we would have gotten away with it if it weren't for you meddling Shipteens!"

(People these days still remember Scooby Doo, right? I'm not that old, right?)

New Scooby Doo shows are still being made even if they are more miss than hit right now there is still some good new stuff despite the recent team in charge of the franchise not getting what Scooby Doo is about. Also:

[X] Yes

Iris could use some peers to talk to.
 
[X] Yes

Good news: these new strangers you've been following have lead you to the Holy of Holies, the sacred space that has defined your culture and your duties since the beginning.

Bad news: the strangers are actually Public Enemy Number 1 for your whole species, and they've got a head start on you and everyone else to accessing this site.
 
Tribute Fleet Protocol and Justifications: The Whys of Peaceful Genocide
This report should be prefaced with the clear and absolute statement that its writers do not, at any level, agree with the conclusions the Shiplords have drawn to reach this point. Although this is typically assumed of all intelligence reports, it bears repeating in this case.

A primary question when discussing the viability of Shiplord rehabilitation, assuming it is even possible, remains the well established Tribute Fleet protocol requiring any nascent Tributary species to inflict sufficient damage on their first Tribute Fleet. The cost for not dealing enough damage is immediate extinction. The cost for dealing too much is the same. The exact calculus that defines these breakpoints appears to be well established, but not something that humanity, at present, has access to.

Up until this point, there's been little ability to properly study the reasons behind this protocol. This changed at the Fourth Sorrow, when Iris identified a former Tribute Fleet officer among those present at the memorial site. Her conversation with this officer, use-name Brelan, is the primary source of information for this report's conclusions.

The results of our analysis present a branched set of reasoning, all of it leading back to the same result. Several of these reasons appear to be the result of traumas suffered and subsequently immortalised by the Shiplord species in the Hearthguard Sorrows. As with all trauma-based reasoning, some are more immediately logical than others.

A keystone of this protocol is how any species that proves incapable of protecting itself effectively, as judged by the Shiplords, is considered equally vulnerable to subjugation by expansionist or consumptive polities in the same area of space. Of all the ways a species can rapidly increase their ability to project power, subjugating their neighbours remains among the most effective. The key trauma of this response is obvious: one of the reasons the Hjivin Sphere grew so swiftly into a nation that could challenge the Shiplords was that almost no one in their area of expansion could protect themselves effectively. And those that could, once cut off by Hjivin subversion of their allies or old friends, were easy meat for the Hjivin machine.

This is apparently the reason that the so-called 'protected' status of Tributary polities is enforced so strictly by the Shiplords. It's true that that policy of enforcement reduces the relevance of this reason today, but it remains an effective foundation. It's also true that, as with any blanket policy, it gets things wrong. This is most true for races that find themselves presented with a hard counter to their combat systems.

Part of the test, it seems, is not just the ability to fight back, but the ability to adapt and continue fighting at a truly enormous disadvantage. This is deeply unfair, though it's noted that those devoured by the Sphere were operating at similar levels. It is the opinion of this report's writers that this is a primary justification for the tactic.

And it presents a key point of weakness for races that develop in ways that support an innately inwards focused view of their priorities.

Article:
Definitional Note
In approaching this report, the writers were forced to reevaluate the use of the term pacifistic when it came to Shiplord Tribute Fleet protocol. Although such species are not the only ones affected by the subject matter of this report, they are the most common victims. On further discussion and analysis of intelligence recovered by Iris, the term has been found to be overly simplistic. As such, inwards-focused should be considered to encompass the term pacifistic on all occasions.


Such species typically neglect military capacity when reaching into space. Any militarised spacecraft they possess will usually be more geared towards handling internal disputes and natural disasters - a stray comet, for example. In human terms, these organisations would be more alike to a coast guard or border force. Whilst effective in their roles, they aren't designed or prepared to fight wars.

Indeed, inwards-focused races will usually also only find one effective way to protect themselves before calling that good enough and moving on to more important matters. Brelan noted in their experience that many of these races' cultures were predisposed against the general idea of entirely xenophobic or genocidal races making it to the stars intact. And so would approach self-defence from a perspective of surviving long enough for reasonable and reasoned negotiations to take place. It cannot be ignored that the Shiplord refusal to engage in this sort of interaction has condemned hundreds, if not thousands of sentient races to death.

Some races prove capable of adapting fast enough to Shiplord assault that they survive, therefore passing one aspect of the Shiplord test. Some, often those most plagued by predators for long periods of their development, develop far more advanced defensive measures and survive that way. Many, perhaps even most, do not.

And here is where our report leaves behind certainty and enters the realm of speculation. The analysis supporting these conclusions could lack critical data, but for now they appear solid.

This process of elimination appears to deliberately select the majority of Tributary species to be outward-focused, as those races are more statistically likely to prepare for potential foes in the dark. Not all such races are able to survive a Tribute Fleet, but more of them do than those that are inwards-focused. This leads to a useful result for the Shiplords: outwards-focused races are more like them, and therefore we suspect marginally easier to understand.

To use humanity as an example: at the time of our first contact with the Shiplords, we were quite certainly an outwards-focused species. It took the discovery of Practice and significant work from the Elder First to change this, and even then humanity is more of a hybrid of the two outlooks, something far rarer than one might believe..

More germane to this issue, from a Shiplord perspective, is how inwards-focused races and polities that survive long enough are more likely to aggressively dig into the deeper mysteries of the universe. They are also more likely to succeed, a result of their focus on these topics, and that sort of drive is a constant concern for the Shiplords to have among their Tributary polities.

The Gysian were an inwards-focused race in many ways, a result of subtle xenophobia, and they were among the first species to discover and test what the First and Fifth Secrets could do when combined without any Shiplord support. The Zlathbu's enormous developments to their understanding of the Sixth Secret is another example of this trend.

Sunset's opinions have also called into question the merits of excluding the Hjivin as an example of this trend. The answer to the Sphere looking inwards was to optimise their civilisation then go back out and look for more ways to provide it with the fuel it required.

Finally, the Consolat can be assumed from what records we have access to to have been an inwards-focused race, and deeply so. The Teel'sanha Peoples were too, at least at the polity scale. Both of them were deeply respected by the Shiplords, and both of them left the Shiplords behind to struggle in pain in a lonely universe. When the Shiplords discover inwards-focused races, they recognise this comparison at a level that we're not sure any of them are aware of.

The vast majority of high-ranking Tribute Fleet personnel are extremely old by Shiplord standards, easily enough to remember the Teel'Sanha, if not the Consolat themselves. When faced with the unconscious memory of what they've lost, they appear to experience an entirely predictable, though remarkably subtle, emotional pain response.

Over time, this response has become formalised as the doctrine of extermination that we're now aware of. It also affects a significant portion of the Shiplord population today, even those who weren't around to know the Peoples, as a result of sheer societal inertia. For all the ancient majesty of their power, the Shiplords aren't immune to their emotions. If this phenomenon was a result of deliberate action by persons of influence within Shiplord society remains unclear.

It is the opinion of this report's writers that this, more than anything else, is why the Shiplord Authority allow these atrocities to continue. Supporting arguments from Tribute Fleet personnel will also draw upon the very traumas that the Hearthguard try to use to break the cycle of violence, presenting examples of how stepping back from this policy only opens the galaxy to yet more danger.

Brelan himself alluded to this, though seemed torn by his conclusions. This is not considered typical Tribute Fleet officer behaviour, with few of them ever visiting the strongholds of the Hearthguard – a mark of unconscious recognition, perhaps. But there's a terrible irony in how both extremes of modern Shiplord culture seem to draw on the same historical experiences to justify themselves.
 
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I am very aware that this report is likely to prove divisive at best, given the current state of world affairs. I really did pick the decade to write this, didn't I.

With that said, the opportunity was there. This should be considered a brief extract from the report produced by Iris and the Adamant's intelligence section. If there are questions about this report, please do ask them. Is doing this in report format, therefore dodging the need to write the immediate effects of it on the cast something of a personal cowardice? Not impossible.

I'm trying. Can't promise to be perfect.
 
The vast majority of high-ranking Tribute Fleet personnel are extremely old by Shiplord standards, easily enough to remember the Teel'Sanha, if not the Consolat themselves. When faced with the unconscious memory of what they've lost, they appear to experience an entirely predictable, though remarkably subtle, emotional pain response.

Ugh, if I thought it would do any good without literally chaining people down I'd want to point this out to them, but I have a feeling their emotional response to how they're killing any new Consolation would be bad
 
Ugh, if I thought it would do any good without literally chaining people down I'd want to point this out to them, but I have a feeling their emotional response to how they're killing any new Consolation would be bad
The broader issue would be getting through to them. The emotional component here, the response to the Shiplord feelings of abandonment by the Consolat and then again the Teel'sanha, is extremely strong. But it's also subtle, in a way that mirrors human interactions with strong emotional impulses on a societal scale. On some level, they don't want another Consolat, because what if history repeats itself again?

It does not, at any level, excuse or justify what they do as a result. It simply is.
 
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I am very aware that this report is likely to prove divisive at best, given the current state of world affairs. I really did pick the decade to write this, didn't I.

With that said, the opportunity was there. This should be considered a brief extract from the report produced by Iris and the Adamant's intelligence section. If there are questions about this report, please do ask them. Is doing this in report format, therefore dodging the need to write the immediate effects of it on the cast something of a personal cowardice? Not impossible.

I'm trying. Can't promise to be perfect.
I mean, it wouldn't necessarily be a great artistic exercise anyway. You'd just be writing several variations on the theme of "intense disgust," because we can all agree that what the Shiplords and the Tribute Fleets in particular are doing here is disgusting, even as we can psychoanalyze it and determine "why," from a cause and effect standpoint, they do it.

What would be interesting to know (and what we don't have even from talking to Brelan, not really) is what the internal narrative justifying this looks like in Shiplord society at large. Does the median Shiplord who isn't ten million years old or whatever just hear "we have to exterminate the species that can't fight back hard enough, because a future star conqueror like the Hjivin would literally eat them for fuel" and just nod along? Or is it an argument that is seldom deployed precisely because it's obvious bullshit, the kind of thing that most Shiplords try not to think about and that is only widely bounced around within the presumed "bubble" of self-congratulatory culture the Tribute Fleets in particular almost have to be wrapping around themselves to some degree?

Things like that.

However, due to the succession of either/or choices we've made, we have a lot of information on Shiplord deep history and little on their internal cultural-ideological dynamics in the present day, so... [shrug]

Huh, that's an explanation that I didn't think about or consider. Very ironic.
Yeah. On some level it's quite natural, when you think about it, because it's very much in keeping with the general trends of the Shiplords as we've seen them that they'd subtly react to abandonment trauma by starting to exterminate every species that could plausibly ever wind up reminding them of their old friends. Horrifying, absolutely fucking horrifying.

Candidly, I think that on some level, some day, there's going to need to be a "you get to live outside of cryosuspension ever again" test for Shiplords of "on actually confronting the reality of this, do you feel an urge to vomit in disgust or anything like that." It may not be realistic immediately and imposing it from outside would require the war we're trying to prevent in the short term, but... I don't think it'll ever be possible to "de-Nazify" the Shiplords without forcing that degree of self-awareness on them. Because honestly, lack of self-awareness is the Shiplords' greatest vice.

Which may tie into Snowfire's themes about inward/outward focus in a species...
 
Ah. So that's the wound you've been alluding in the subtext of this story for quite some time @Snowfire. I'm going to go shopping now and vent my emotions because my first response is still "those craven fucks" and that is not conductive to good analysis. I'll ask my question later today or tomorrow.
 
Normally I'm willing to try and engage but I'm not really feeling a productive angle ATM.
Then again I might need food first.
But I suppose abandonment is…Hrrrm.
It explains that whole 'How dare you use that gift and persist' line.
I also suspect the calling it 'subtle' was a way of avoiding speaking truth to power, given the intensity of the reactions in question I can understand why the need to step lightly lest the sleeping dog awaken.
 
From a pragmatic point of view - how do you create a species-wide miracle to mend these literally millenia-old traumas? And prevent a relapse? Would the result still be SLs? Is it more ethical than killing all of them, and if so, under which ethical framework?
 
From a pragmatic point of view - how do you create a species-wide miracle to mend these literally millenia-old traumas? And prevent a relapse? Would the result still be SLs? Is it more ethical than killing all of them, and if so, under which ethical framework?
I believe the plan is to convince them to leave the Sorrows behind, and go exploring once again, but this time to the lands of the Uninvolved, and beyond…
 
The most sympathetic I can ever see myself being for this is that they've killed too many birds with too few stones, for an incredibly literal value of "kill".

Where I'm actually at is pretty much where I was at before, except instead of not knowing their reason and suspecting it sucks, I know their reason and it does suck. Everyone really would be better off if the people who were so traumatized by a suigenocide that they simply couldn't help but repeat it for a million years on less consenting participants had just stayed home, and the fact that this has continued for a good chunk of the time humans and chimpanzees have been different animals really does say very discouraging things about the Shiplord government's and culture's ability to resist improvement.
From a pragmatic point of view - how do you create a species-wide miracle to mend these literally millenia-old traumas? And prevent a relapse? Would the result still be SLs? Is it more ethical than killing all of them, and if so, under which ethical framework?
I think it's pretty clear at this point that they need Jesus, and only Jesus will do. And by Jesus I mean Amanda, a semi-involved person who's managed to follow the soul tech tree far enough to pick up where the Consolat left off despite the Shiplords' best efforts. Unclear what, specifically, that's going to look like aside from going through the Consolat's stuff and playing things by ear.

If that doesn't pan out, hope the Hearthguard were serious about doing a civil war, win that war with them, and do the most aggressive and thorough denazification in the history of the universe to the most aggressively stable society in the history of the universe. Easy.
 
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What would be interesting to know (and what we don't have even from talking to Brelan, not really) is what the internal narrative justifying this looks like in Shiplord society at large. Does the median Shiplord who isn't ten million years old or whatever just hear "we have to exterminate the species that can't fight back hard enough, because a future star conqueror like the Hjivin would literally eat them for fuel" and just nod along? Or is it an argument that is seldom deployed precisely because it's obvious bullshit, the kind of thing that most Shiplords try not to think about and that is only widely bounced around within the presumed "bubble" of self-congratulatory culture the Tribute Fleets in particular almost have to be wrapping around themselves to some degree?

Things like that.

However, due to the succession of either/or choices we've made, we have a lot of information on Shiplord deep history and little on their internal cultural-ideological dynamics in the present day, so... [shrug]

Iris didn't get a great deal on this topic, but she did get some data simply through observation. Looking at what Shiplords talked to Brelan about and the reactions of those around them was enough for at least some level of analysis. The median Shiplord will visit the Sorrows at least once, after all - even those who go into Tribute Fleet service have usually done so. This is prediction vs certainty, but what you do have goes like this:

Tribute Fleet personnel occupy a complicated position in Shiplord society where they're both respected and disliked for what they do. On the one hand, they're the people who go out across the galaxy, constantly putting their lives at risk to try and maintain the system that currently is seen to protect not just the Shiplords, but the galaxy itself. At the same time, their methods for doing so are...well there's a mix of responses here. Most try not to think too hard about it, or find ways to reason their way out of the moral quagmire. I should take the time to note that these are circular logic loops at best, like how...well...look at some parts of human culture today.

At the level of popular opinion, the purpose of the Tribute Fleets is something most Shiplords seem to agree with. There needs to be some mechanism to prevent future Sorrows needing founded. This is where the status of Tribute Fleet personnel being...honoured in some ways comes from. They sacrifice their own innocence, so the most earnest supporters would say, to protect the rest of reality.

<Iris> It's bullshit of the highest order, but it's not as if humanity hasn't made similar mistakes, even if the scale of this one is unimaginably greater.

The analysis has also raised some suspicion that a degree of that popular support of purpose comes from conflation of the Tribute fleets work with that of Contact. The Tribute apparatus grew out of Contact in the millennia following the the War of the Sphere, so some level of conflation makes sense. It's not impossible that officers high up in the newly reordered Tribute system did their best to make that connection hold, but it's also not certain that any of them did. Getting a firm answer on that would require access to records that you just don't have.

The more contentious issue is how the Tribute Fleets fulfil this purpose, and here is where much of Shiplord society tries not to look too hard at the subject. There are always those who rail against it, but even their rejections are subtly undermined by the emotional response that led their species to this place. Very, very few Shiplords aren't vulnerable to that, and though there are more who're resistant to use of the Sorrows as a means to justify a course of action, it's not that much more.

Given that Tribute Fleet personnel legitimately believe that what they're doing is what they have to to protect everything - Brelan certainly expressed this - the evolution from Contact through to what the Tribute Fleets have become follows somewhat predictably. It's horrible in a way I struggle to put into words, and I don't mean to argue that. But the logic chain, I hope, holds.

Which, in the end, was all I was trying for. Providing a chain of logic and decisions that could make sense of why the Shiplords act the way they do.

And...I hope I haven't missed your point in this reply.

I also suspect the calling it 'subtle' was a way of avoiding speaking truth to power, given the intensity of the reactions in question I can understand why the need to step lightly lest the sleeping dog awaken.

It's more subtle in the way that most Shiplords can't even recognise it being there. And without that recognition, they can't fight it. Hell, not even the Hearthguard are really immune to this one. They've chosen to deal with the pain in a very different way, but it's still a form of symptom management, not actual treatment.

From a pragmatic point of view - how do you create a species-wide miracle to mend these literally millenia-old traumas? And prevent a relapse? Would the result still be SLs? Is it more ethical than killing all of them, and if so, under which ethical framework?
Within the ethical framework of PW humanity? That's kinda the big question, an answer to which Amanda and the rest are hoping will be at the Consolat home system.

<Iris> You m-

Zip it you!

<Iris> ...meanie :V

I like the 'easy 3-step' plans ...
Simple, perhaps. Easy...is probably something else.
 
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It's more subtle in the way that most Shiplords can't even recognise it being there. And without that recognition, they can't fight it. Hell, not even the Hearthguard are really immune to this one. They've chosen to deal with the pain in a very different way, but it's still a form of symptom management, not actual treatment.
And that must be one of the easy three steps: after we manage to get the SL to understand that, they will also understand that their few thousand genocides were unnecessary, especially as they monitor a lot (all) of this galaxy and a sudden 'race pops up that gobbles up neighbours and creates an evil Uninvolved before anybody can do anything' cannot happen anymore. How will we handle that before it comes to mass suicides among the SL?
 
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